When do Revelations seals open

[Spock]

On 10/4/2018 at 1:27 PM, iamlamad said:

You can believe this if you choose to.  The truth is, Jesus was "harpazo"d up to heaven. It is the word John chose. If you don't like John's choice, ask Him about it when we get there. 

You have to admit, the fact that John used the verb HARPAZO certainly does lend credence to this being the raptured body of Christ.  After all, Rev 2 says the Body will also rule and reign with a rod of iron. 

[Spock]

On 10/14/2018 at 8:52 PM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but it was Jesus HIMSELF that told me. I will take His word over yours any day of the week. 

Exactly how did he tell you this?  Text? Email? Phone call?  ????

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Spock said:

Exactly how did he tell you this?  Text? Email? Phone call?  ????

How did your mom call you to supper when you were out playing? She spoke loudly so you would hear.

God SPOKE: I heard His voice and His words. 

"Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns. (I counted 32 times) I CHOSE to show John how the Dragon tried to kill Me as a young child. Those first 5 verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

Those are the words He spoke and that I heard.

Edited July 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Spock said:

You have to admit, the fact that John used the verb HARPAZO certainly does lend credence to this being the raptured body of Christ.  After all, Rev 2 says the Body will also rule and reign with a rod of iron. 

It was the word John chose. Being "harpazo'ed" does not have to be violent or instant.

Does "virgo" fit the birth of Christ better, or the church better? What possible relationship would the virgin have to the church?

I know this picture John drew of Virgo clothed in the sun and with the moon at her feet describes Virgo in Sept. of 2 BC.

The virgin is pregnant and is crying out in pain....does this fit the birth of Christ better - or the church better?

The Dragon about the devour the male child as soon as it was born....we KNOW this exactly describes Satan using King Herod to kill Jesus as a young child. How would it possibly fit the church?

The virgin gave birth to a male child....this fits Jesus perfectly, but does not fit the church.

You see, every word fits what Jesus spoke to me - perfectly. One would have to have great imagination or very strong preconceptions to force this to fit the rapture of the church.

Why not just let these words say what they say, without any gymnastics involved?

You have ONE WORD......will you build a doctrine from one word?

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Spock said:

Good post 13:8. Clap clap

i too am always looking aT possibilities. I try not to close myself up to other thoughts because that would make me arrogant and already possessing all knowledge.....which I know can’t be so.

So, like you, I am thinking that the 6th seal either is right at the midpoint of the week or possibly even at the end....in other words, this ushers in the second coming to the planet of Jesus. 

However, to take that line of thinking, I think you would have to place the trumpets inside the seals, probably starting at midpoint on, and then place the bowls inside the trumpets on your timeline, startimg at the very end of the week, like the last month. 

I believe Marilyn proposed this timeline which at that time didn’t connect with me, but I am now ready to hear it and test it with scripture. 

The seals are different than the trumpets and bowls with Jesus opening them, not angels,  so maybe they are not all consecutive and maybe there is an overlapping. 

Anyhow, I’m listening to all thoughts on this matter, pro or con. 

Thanks.

spock

Why not before the week starts - where GOD and John put it?  Spock, be logical: JOHN HIMSELF numbered the seals, the trumpets and the vials. Why? To wasted ink?  To keep them straight in his own mind?  The most logical reason is that is the ORDER God showed them to him - and it is most logical that God knew the order in which they were and would be opened.

Be logical! We are in the age of grace. Judgment in a big way has not come yet. The church age has not ended. So look for John's FIRST MENTION of wrath - God's wrath. Where do we find it? At the 6th seal. Would two world wars be more likely to be from Satan rather than from God?  Would they be more likely to be Satan trying to kill people off so they would not have a chance to get born again? Does it seem likely that Satan's hatred for the Jews caused him to raise up Hitler's crew to murder 6 million Jews?

How about the black plague and yellow fever? Are they more likely to be Satan's hatred for the human race, or God bringing judgment during the church age? Anyway, where would God get the black plague? Does He have a stock of it in heaven?  No, it is listed under the curse of the Law.  Anyone not protected under Moses law was open game for Satan to pick off.

I know that many people imagine the seals start God's judgment. Sorry, but studying the scripture shows me that theory is very illogical.  God is certainly not angry with his martyrs - neither did God have ANYTHING to do with their murders. That is Satan's doing.

Truthfully, it is far more logical to believe John was showing us TIMING in chapter 5 - the very time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - making the first seal opening around 32 AD as the church, sent out with the gospel.

Next, it seems you are staring at trees and missing the forest. God introduced John to THE BOOK for a very good reason. Getting the book opened would seal Satan's doom as the god of this planet. The book gets opened the moment all seven seals are opened. Therefore the trumpet judgments are what is INSIDE the book.  This would make your statement of the 6th seal being at the end of the week silly at best and certainly NOT logical.  In other words, DON'T FORGET the book when forming your theories.

Edited July 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 3/1/2019 at 9:58 AM, Revelation Man said:

Going down the wrong road always leads one off course.  The Rev. 6 events have nothing to do with Matthew 24, at least not until one gets to Matt. 24:15, anything before that is not about the End Times, and the clues tell us this, but it's hard to unregister things registered in the recesses of our minds. The clues tell us this, but people ignore what they don't want to see. For instance, Jesus tells the Disciples in verse 9 that they will be delivered up to be killed, yet you guys who believe these are the "LAST DAYS/Sorrows of Tribulation" have to discount that fact altogether because it doesn't jibe with the timing you are putting forth. "SORROWS/Birth pangs" birth something, they are not the "BABY" so the Sorrows are the start of the pangs, not the end result. So verse 8 can never be in the "End Times" either !! Thus verses 6 and 7 can't be end time, and especially when we understand verse 9 is about the Disciples, so nothing FITS except some old belief we refuse to examine thoroughly. 

The "False Prophets" in verse 11 are not THE FALSE PROPHET & FALSE CHRIST of Matt. 24:24, just like the fake christs of verse 5 is not about verse 24. They are mentioning three distinct time periods. Understanding these time periods is essential to understanding Matt. 24. This is why we get the false assumptions the Sals have been opened, people just can't get the facts straight, IMHO, this is how Satan attacks, via half truths. He loves to divide via deception. Matt. 24:23–26 indeed is the Rev. 13 Beast and False Prophet, but verses 4-5 ARE NOT, thus you are leading the masses {masses who believe this} down a wrong by mixing these two as one event, they ARE NOT, the Disciples get Martyred in verse 9 !! Why try to make verses 4 and 5 the end times when you know this fact ? 

Again, verses  6 and 7 have nothing to do with Rev.  6, or verses 3-4, its about "BIRTH PANGS" which come BEFORE THE BABY !! Verse 8 tells us that, yet you guys have verses 6 and 7 as end times. It just doesn't add up. Event 3 also doesn't add up, it is not verse 7, again, the BIRTH PANGS deliver the BABY. The AoD is not ONE EVENT per se, it's about the False Prophet placing an Image of the Beast in the Temple, that happens in Rev. 13, which happens before the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel at the 1260 the AoD happens 30 days before at the 1290. Matt. 24:9-14 have nothing to do with the 5th Seal.

Event 6 is the only part of the chart that is 100 percent correct, The rest is just not true, all because it takes similar events and tries to force a timing that does not match.

In Matt. 24 Jesus tells about a Temple that will be destroyed and a city that will be sacked. Thus when they ask Jesus the question of when will these things be, the first question he answers is about the Temple !! Thus the FALSE CHRISTS of verse 4 and 5 have ZERO to do with Matt. 24:24, it is a totally different time frame. This fulfills John 5:43, where Jesus told the Pharisees they would not accept him when he came in God's name, but they would accept another who came in their own name !! The Pharisees rightly saw the Scriptures pointed to Rome a the Fourth Beast, thus they tried to FORCE Messiah onto the scene, who they to this day see as a Political figure, they never saw the coming Messiah as the Son of God !! Do you guys realize that aspect ? That is why Judas wanted Jesus to FIGHT !! It is why Peter wanted to Fight, they were misinformed, Jesus had to reprogram them, my Kingdom is not of this world !! So the Pharisees put forth different "political messiahs" whom they thought would SAVE THEM as a great leader. So the verses 4 and 5 have nothing to do with Matt. 24:24, its about the fake christs put forth before the Temple is destroyed, then Jesus tells them, HEY, YOU {DISCIPLES} will hear of wars and rumours of war, but don't be TROUBLED {DISCIPLES} for these things have to come to pass, but the END IS NOT YET or is BY AND BY. He is telling the Disciples, this IS NOT the Zechariah 14 events, even though 70 AD will look like it, the END is by and by. So he just explained the Temples DESTRUCTION TIMING unto the Disciples !! 

Jesus then goes into the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period and gives an OVERALL PICTURE of this time period, it will be like BIRTH PANGS, things will get worse and worse until the Times of Troubles is upon the world. So their will be Wars via Nations vs. Nations and Kings vs. Kings, this REAFFIRMED to the Disciples that the 70 AD event WAS NOT THE END !! Right ? That was Jesus' reasoning here, here the ed will be BY AND BY.....See here, there will be more wars, many more wars before the end !! But you guys that believe this stuff is end times, just skop over all the real clues. Jesus give us a litany of clues then about the things that lead up to the End Times Troubles, the Wars, Pestilences, Famines, that get worse and worse. He then explains to the Disciples they will be murdered/MARTYRED, during this Church Age Period, MANY FALSE PROPHETS/TEACHERS/PREACHERS shall arise and we know many of these men, Robert Tilton, David Koresh, Jim Jones etc. etc. etc. AGAIN, this has nothing to do with Matt. 24:24, this is all about the Church Age Tribulation leading up to the "BABY/Time of Troubles like never before". 

Verses 12 and 13 are misconstrued. The Love of many will indeed wax cold, and colder, and colder. and colder, but we had bloodthirsty tyrant 1500 years ago, 1000 years ago and 500 years ago also, and those who ENDURE TILL THE END in verse 13 means unto the end of one's life !! Not until the End of time per se. Jesus is speaking about the Church Age that BIRTHS the Times of Troubles. Then in verse 14, Jesus then tells us, the Gospel must be Preached unto all the world, then the end will come, as in the Times of Troubles.............THEN we see the AoD spoken of in verse 15. 

So we have verses 4-6 about the Temple TIME PERIOD.............We have verses 7-14 about the Church Age Time Period..........then we have verses 15-31 about the 70th Week Time Period. 

But that chart is not a factual chart at all.

Very good, RM!

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It was the word John chose. Being "harpazo'ed" does not have to be violent or instant.

Does "virgo" fit the birth of Christ better, or the church better? What possible relationship would the virgin have to the church?

I know this picture John drew of Virgo clothed in the sun and with the moon at her feet describes Virgo in Sept. of 2 BC.

The virgin is pregnant and is crying out in pain....does this fit the birth of Christ better - or the church better?

The Dragon about the devour the male child as soon as it was born....we KNOW this exactly describes Satan using King Herod to kill Jesus as a young child. How would it possibly fit the church?

The virgin gave birth to a male child....this fits Jesus perfectly, but does not fit the church.

You see, every word fits what Jesus spoke to me - perfectly. One would have to have great imagination or very strong preconceptions to force this to fit the rapture of the church.

Why not just let these words say what they say, without any gymnastics involved?

You have ONE WORD......will you build a doctrine from one word?

You NEED for harpazo to not be a sudden snatching in order to meet your agenda. I’m sorry brother, you are wrong on this one. Jesus was NOT HARPAZOED....THE CHURCH WILL BE. 

[Revelation Man]

On 7/10/2019 at 9:59 AM, iamlamad said:

Very good, RM!

Well I know that was not speaking about my SPELLING THERE !! 

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OK, guys, I saw some chat about the 6th Seals timing above. I need to update something I was refreshed on in this line of thinking.

Day 1............................................Day 1260, DAY 1261 leaves 1260 days until Jesus returns on day 2520.

Day 1............................................Day 1260, 1261....on this day all 6 Seals are opened at once basically, mere seconds after each other. Why do I say this ? Well Satan/Dragon chases the Woman {Israel} for 1260 days, he's been cast down and is ANGRY. So he must be cast down on day 1261 to be on earth chasing the Woman {Israel} for 1260 days. Of course that is not the only reason. It finally hit me, Seal 1-5 are not things that come to pass before the NEXT SEAL can be opened !! It is things that will come to pass over the Anti-Christ 42 month reign of terror.

1.) The Anti-Christ will go forth Conquering on earth for 42 Months.

2.) The Anti-Christ takes PEACE from the earth, this shows he reneges on his "Peace treaties" (Dan. 9:27) and thus Wars come for 42 months.

3.) The Anti-Christ's Wars bring Famine and Starvation of course over his 42 month reign.

4.) The Anti-Christ slays 1.5-2 Billion people over a 42 Month Period, death and the Grave thus are represented by a Pale Green Horse.

5. The Martyrs over a 42 Month Period are shown to John. Jesus tells them they must wait until their brothers have been killed in like manner as them. 

 

So Jesus has no reason to wait around for these first 5 Seals to come to pass, these are Jesus allowing the Anti-Christ to become the Tyrant over the world for a 42 month period, in four different ways, and the 5th Seal is the testament to his evil handiwork. 

 

Now the 6th Seal can be opened, ON DAY 1261 also, Satan is cast out of Heaven as Untimely Figs {Stars}. The sun and moon God dark, thus God's Wrath is loosed on DAY 1261 also. The wait for the 7th Seal is God waiting on the Fleeing Jews {144,000} to reach the Petra/Bozrah protected area.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well I know that was not speaking about my SPELLING THERE !! 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, guys, I saw some chat about the 6th Seals timing above. I need to update something I was refreshed on in this line of thinking.

Day 1............................................Day 1260, DAY 1261 leaves 1260 days until Jesus returns on day 2520.

Day 1............................................Day 1260, 1261....on this day all 6 Seals are opened at once basically, mere seconds after each other. Why do I say this ? Well Satan/Dragon chases the Woman {Israel} for 1260 days, he's been cast down and is ANGRY. So he must be cast down on day 1261 to be on earth chasing the Woman {Israel} for 1260 days. Of course that is not the only reason. It finally hit me, Seal 1-5 are not things that come to pass before the NEXT SEAL can be opened !! It is things that will come to pass over the Anti-Christ 42 month reign of terror.

1.) The Anti-Christ will go forth Conquering on earth for 42 Months.

2.) The Anti-Christ takes PEACE from the earth, this shows he reneges on his "Peace treaties" (Dan. 9:27) and thus Wars come for 42 months.

3.) The Anti-Christ's Wars bring Famine and Starvation of course over his 42 month reign.

4.) The Anti-Christ slays 1.5-2 Billion people over a 42 Month Period, death and the Grave thus are represented by a Pale Green Horse.

5. The Martyrs over a 42 Month Period are john unto John. Jesus tells them they must wait until they have been killed in like manner as their brother. 

 

So Jesus has no reason to wait around for these first 5 Seals to come to pass, these are Jesus allowing the Anti-Christ to become the Tyrant over the world for a 42 month period, in four different ways, and the 5th Seal is the testament to his evil handiwork. 

 

Now the 6th Seal can be opened, ON DAY 1261, Satan is cast out of Heaven as Untimely Figs {Stars}. The sun and moon God dark, thus God's Wrath is loosed on DAY 1261 also. The wait for the 7th Seal is God waiting on the Fleeing Jews {144,000} to reach Petra/Bozrah.

Sorry, RM, but Jesus does NOT return on day 2520. If He did, then everyone would know the day. You KNOW that is not truth. Anyway, John shows us the week ending at the 7th vial, then the marriage and supper taking place in heaven BEFORE Jesus returns. I would guess He will return on day 1290 - but it is only a guess.

You KNOW I disagree on your theory of the seals.  Seals 1-5 are church age. Seal 6 begins end times judgment with the start of the Day of the Lord.

I agree, the devil is cast down at the midpoint or VERY shortly thereafter.  It could take Michael and his angels a few hours - perhaps only a few minutes.  Those that begin their flight when they see the abomination at the exact midpoint will then be fleeing for 1260 days.

You are stuck looking at a tree and missing the forest. The seals have ONE MAIN PURPOSE: to seal the book. And as each seal is opened, to make legal those events for that seal. (It is a legal document.) The final seal will allow the opening of the book: God's goal to get Satan dethroned. The book gets opened (John did not write it) the moment the 7th seal is opened: what happens then? The trumpet judgments that will end up dethroning Satan. So in Rev. 8:2 the BOOK is open and the following events are what is written inside the book. At this time the seals are forgotten (the events of each seal may well be ongoing, but the seal being opened only allowed those events to begin).

Therefore, to even imagine that a seal can be something in the last half of the book is very obviously ERROR. The seals are all opened and finished when the 70th week begins with the 7th seal. In other words, what "finally hit you" was wrong. Forget it!

The Anti-Christ will go forth Conquering on earth for 42 Months:  WRONG: the CHURCH goes forth conquering to spread the gospel: church age.

The Anti-Christ takes PEACE from the earth:  LAST HALF of the 70th week.

The Anti-Christ's Wars bring Famine and Starvation: The DEVIL has brought famine and starvation during the church age. People will certainly get hungry during the Antichrist's 42 months, because people will refuse the mark so cannot buy.  The Two witnesses may well stop the rain, so no crops will grow, making things worse for those trying to hide.

The Anti-Christ slays 1.5-2 Billion people over a 42 Month Period, death and the Grave thus are represented by a Pale Green Horse.:  The pale horse is CHURCH AGE and has been killing through plagues, fevers, pestilences for centuries.  The Beast kills by beheading: all those who refuse his mark.

The martyrs of the 5th seal are CHURCH AGE martyrs. At this time the 70th week is FUTURE.

RM, we are just going to disagree until the day comes.  Your theories are impossible according to the written word.

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, Spock said:

You NEED for harpazo to not be a sudden snatching in order to meet your agenda. I’m sorry brother, you are wrong on this one. Jesus was NOT HARPAZOED....THE CHURCH WILL BE. 

You are making a doctrine on ONE WORD, when all the rest of the words are against your theory. Anyway, a harpazo does not have to be a violent seizing and catching away.

Acts 8:39: "water, the Spirit of the Lord  caught away Philip, that the eunuch"

Matthew 13:19: "the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart."

Jude 1:23: "save with fear,  pulling them out of the fire; hating"

2 Corinthians 12:4: "How that  he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words,"

It is not logical to make a doctrine from one word, when the other words say something different.

Edited July 11, 2019 by iamlamad