Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

 God says what He means and means what He says.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. Don’t you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? [Hallelujah! 1 Thess 4:17!] Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. Then (!!!!!!!!) the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming; even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Context is King! Just so Paul wouldn't be understood by those who reject what he's saying, he spells it out in the rest of the paragraph. It's plain as the sunny day.

 

So, we're to believe that the rapture (gathering to Him) won't happen until the rapture (departure) happens first?  Clear as mud at night.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

For it will not be, unless the departure comes first,

You know the word here is apostasia and from the day Paul penned the term it has been defined as revolt. Your contention Paul is speaking of a departure is correct, a departure from a previous standing, not leaving from one place to go to another. I'm afraid you'll have to wait to see this come to pass. Find me when you see the beast rise, I'll be here to help.

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

Don’t you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? [Hallelujah! 1 Thess 4:17!]

This is not referring to 1 Thess 4:17. That would have been a reference to a letter. Paul points out he taught the Thessalonians 'when he was WITH them' and the letter written when he WAS NOT with them. Paul was referring to a previous teaching not a previous letter.

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.

This is wrong but I can see how the translators saw it this way. This sentence from the Greek is much closer to "Wait till he rises in the midst." and has nothing to do with restraining anything in a literal reading.

Conceptually it could be seen as restraint but still must be interpreted in the context of the rise of the beast and the rebellion is restraining the 2nd coming and the gathering. But you'll see. Well, maybe. We could all die before any of this begins. Again when the beast rises, I'll be here.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Diaste

[frienduff thaylorde]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

You know the word here is apostasia and from the day Paul penned the term it has been defined as revolt. Your contention Paul is speaking of a departure is correct, a departure from a previous standing, not leaving from one place to go to another. I'm afraid you'll have to wait to see this come to pass. Find me when you see the beast rise, I'll be here to help.

This is not referring to 1 Thess 4:17. That would have been a reference to a letter. Paul points out he taught the Thessalonians 'when he was WITH them' and the letter written when he WAS NOT with them. Paul was referring to a previous teaching not a previous letter.

This is wrong but I can see how the translators saw it this way. This sentence from the Greek is much closer to "Wait till he rises in the midst." and has nothing to do with restraining anything in a literal reading.

Conceptually it could be seen as restraint but still must be interpreted in the context of the rise of the beast and the rebellion is restraining the 2nd coming and the gathering. But you'll see. Well, maybe. We could all die before any of this begins. Again when the beast rises, I'll be here.

The great apostacy has began .     and its growing faster now .   

WHO is the ONLY foundation , the ONLY STONE , the only name whereby one can be saved .   JESUS .

Well more and more churches even don't even believe this anymore .   THEY think God is okay with all religions .     It aint coming ,  ITS BEGAN .

and worse most folks gonna take that mark as well.      Well renown leaders of pre trib ,   some have already began teaching this tech aint the mark of the beast

and that the SIX SIX  SIX just gets added in later into the chip .   THEY GONNA TAKE IT .    THEY GONNA TAKE IT , cause they think we wont be here on earth at that time .

Apostacy ,   its abounding now more than ever , folks falling away FROM EVEN JESUS as the ONLY WAY NOW .

And worse a so called voice that claims to be christain , is the group that started all this .   THAT WHORE ROME .    and the churches just sop it up.

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Hence my comment about people not understanding simple English either. One event, two parts:

"concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him" Jesus comes in the clouds, calls us up, and we go up to meet Him in the air. Plain to those that believe. Four steps to one event.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (#1) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (#2): Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (#3) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (#4): and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

Hi Abdicate,

Yes, I DO agree that this shows both the Resurrection and the Rapture.

But nowhere does it show "timing".

There is however, one place in particular that DOES show the timing.

And Diaste has already pointed it out...."Wrath only begins at the sixth seal. Not before. Please cite a direct statement from scripture for your contention wrath begins at the 1st seal

Fall on us and hide us ^f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their ^g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I totally agree.

If you equate "TRIBULATION" with "WRATH", meaning they are one and the same, that's a problem. Scripture clearly differentiates the two.

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve Conley]

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

JoeCanada, your beginning post is enough to convince any honest, truth-loving, believer that the recent teaching of "apostasia = rapture" is utter foolishness. Those who persist in the promotion of such foolishness have chosen to love not the truth. It is God's prerogative to take away even the truth that one has when one continually rejects truth. This is a spiritual blindness that they have brought upon themselves, it will only be removed upon their repentance. God is merciful and will recover the contrite to the truth, if they, with all humility, cry out to God that their eyes may be opened. If they become willing to be corrected by the Word of God as opposed to wresting the Scriptures to their own destruction only then will they see. No amount of argumentation can convince one who is unwilling.

Thank you for your participation in this forum. There are still many who love truth and are willing to be instructed or corrected by the Word.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/25/2018 at 6:36 AM, Diaste said:

 This sort of rationalization is troubling. Mainly because it appears God has appointed you personally to fill in the blanks and clarify, and add and subtract, for the 'average Christian'. 

I do believe you cannot ascertain intent as concerns holy writ. And you seem unable to realize that you are breeding confusion by declaring what is, and is not, the word of God.

All in all I don't believe your opinions are reliable.

 

Of course we can, God never half steps, He would never give us things that are incomplete on purpose. The RCC decided to canonize these Epistles as Holy writ. Its Is of God but if the Jews had given us the first 6 chapters of Daniel but not the full 12 chapters it would have confused us in many ways. Daniel, and other prophets no doubt knew their writings were "thus saith the Lord", Paul and Peter etc. understood we have the holy Spirit now, they taught and expected their teachings to be passed on and they understood each man had THE TEACHER/COMFORTER inside them. We have the ultimate teacher living in us whose job is to lead us unto all truth. The perfect example of my point is the way you use a passage above to say that it's a REBELLION, and when you get to heaven you will understand it was a DEPARTURE because you will be departing at the same time as me, pre 70th week. 

I have been preaching for 30 years, believe as you will brother, what I do know is these ideas are not mainstream in the Church but sure are on these message boards. You guys have all these ideas but you never back them up with scriptures. 

2 Thessalonians 2 is just common sense to be honest. The Thessalonians feared being in God's Wrath and were told by Paul, you need not worry, you can't be in the DOTL (God's Wrath) until the Departure [of the Church] and the Man of Sin comes forth..........the First Seal brings him forth AND thus kicks off the Day of the Lord. The fact that you go against the first seven English translations which says DEPARTURE, and go with the KJV which stated a falling away is kinda telling. NOWHERE in the whole passage is FAITH being spoken of, but a GATHERING UNTO Christ was spoken of !! 

Paul tells them what MUST DEPART then tells them NOW YOU KNOW what WITHHOLDETH...............It's the Church that has kept the Beast system at bay for 2000 years.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 11/25/2018 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

Oh my. The idea here is credibility. The word does not appear in the Greek, it's a popularized term. If one can and does change a word here or there by personal preference, what else is one changing?

On 11/25/2018 at 4:59 AM, Revelation Man said:

BANG HEAD.........BANG HEAD.........Harpazo is the Greek word Paul used...........it was translated to Latin as RAPIO........how can one not get this? This is too funny man, I have a hard time thinking you are serious here. Via your line of thinking only the English translation can be read. RAPIO and HARPAZO are the exact same thing, good grief. 

On 11/25/2018 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

I could agree IF, you had facts and stopped offering so much opinion.

On 11/25/2018 at 4:59 AM, Revelation Man said:

I offer facts continually. Paul was taught and then TAUGHT........We do the same, we are taught by the Holy Spirit then TEACH brother. I can't get someone with a closed mind to look at the facts. In theory, Rev. 19 should take all doubt away, as should Rev. 4:4 and 5:9. But people who believe certain things seem to let pride takeover.  I know this because my first 15 years as a Christian, I couldn't be wrong, and God finally showed me one day, if you can't ever be wrong son, you will never learn my truths in full because only I am always right, follow the voice of the Spirit............Good advice, since I started heeding that, I have learned to hear the small voice of the Spirit much clearer.

POINT BEING: If I know in my heart and mind something is a 100 percent truth, even if it hasn't been affirmed by the Holy Spirit, then I have no shot of hearing the Holy Spirit's "WHISPER" on the subject one day. I was like that on the timing of the Rapture, I always felt it was Pre-tribulation, but took no position on it because God had never affirmed it. Then when He called me to a deeper study of Prophecy, for these end times no doubt, I was shown in many ways why the Rapture has to be Pre-tribulation. But I wouldn't have heard that voice if I was 100 percent sure it was a Post tribulation rapture or a pre wrath rapture. Unless we know we shouldn't lock ourselves in, when the Holy Spirit affirms something, run with it. 

 

On 11/25/2018 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

How does the wrath of God begin at the first seal? So God's wrath begins twice? Unreliable testimony based on this:

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us ^f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their ^g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Wrath only begins at the sixth seal. Not before. Please cite a direct statement from scripture for your contention wrath begins at the 1st seal, as I have done proving wrath begins at the 6th seal.

You and many others make the same mistake brother, EYE CANDY....You see this and it's like eye candy that a good offense gives the defense......

THINK NOW, where does the above say that the 6th Seal brought that Wrath that HAS COME ? Nowhere of course, the only thing that is mentioned is the fact that these supernatural events affirmed to these people that they were in the WRATH OF God. They were already in the Wrath of God, they just understand it now because of the noted Sun and Moon prophetic uttering by Joel. When they see the 1st Seal it's just a man coming to power in a crude way, we have had that in many leaders like Hitler. Seal #2 is the Anti-Christ taking away PEACE from the earth........Well we have had many wars over the last 2000 years, WW1 and WW2 killed 100's of millions of people. Seals 3 and 4 are just the results of these Wars, nothing Supernatural has occurred at least in their eyes, it's just MORE WARS !! The 5th Seal is just Jesus and the Martyrs under the Altar in a spiritual sense. 

So when the Sun gives not its light and the moon turns blood red and the stars fall from Heaven.............if you lived through it all, not being of God, when would it hit you that OH MY.........THERE IS A GOD !! And we are in his wrath !! That would happen when the celestial events come to pass, the Prophecies of ols are sen with the naked eye. The Wars are just evil men being evil and dumb as always.........It's the norm, men killing men over nothing. So they only UNDERSTAND they are in God's Wrath after they see the celestial events happen. 

Jesus opens ALL THE SEALS !! The Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering and to Conquer as allowed by Jesus, he thus kills 1.5 to 2 Billion people !! This is the Wrath of God on Mankind, he gives them their hearts desire, a tyrant to rule over them. You take a VISION of people who proclaim WE ARE IN THE WRATH OF GOD.........And you run with it that that is when God's Wrath begins, when it's clearly not the case. The Day of the Lord starts with Jesus opening the First Seal. God is perfect in His symmetry, he starts NOTHING in the middle. We should know this. Why is THEIR UNDERSTANDING contingent on when the Wrath of God actually begins ? It isn't. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

38 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Of course we can, God never half steps, He would give us things that are incomplete on purpose. The RCC decided to canonize these Epistles as Holy writ. Its Is of God but if the Jews had given us the first 6 chapters of Daniel but not the full 12 chapters it would have confused us in many ways. Daniel, and other prophets no doubt knew their writings were "thus saith the Lord", Paul and Peter etc. understood we gave the holy Spirit now, they taught and expected their teaching to be passed on and they understood each man had THE TACHER/COMFORTER inside them. We have the ultimate teacher living in us whose job is to lead us unto all truth. The perfect example of my point is the way you use a passage above to say that it's a REBELLION, and when you get to heaven you will understand it was a DEPARTURE because you will be departing at the same tie as me, pre 70th week. 

I have been preaching for 30 years, believe as you will brother, what I do know is these ideas are not mainstream in the Church but sure are on these message boards. You guys have all these ideas but you never back them up with scriptures. 

2 Thessalonians 2 is just common sense to be honest. The Thessalonians feared being in God's Wrath and were told by Paul, you need not worry, you can't be in the DOTL (God's Wrath) until the Departure [of the Church] and the Man of Sin comes forth..........the First Seal brings him forth AND thus kicks off the Day of the Lord. The fact that you go against the first seven English translation which says DEPARTURE, and go with the KJV which stated a falling away is kinda telling. NOWHERE in the whole passage is FAITH being spoken of, but a GATHERING UNTO Christ was spoken of !! 

Paul tells them what MUST DEPART the tells them NOW YOU KNOW what WITHHOLDETH...............It's the Church that has kept the Beast system at bay for 2000 years.

Humbug.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/25/2018 at 11:17 AM, Last Daze said:

So, we're to believe that the rapture (gathering to Him) won't happen until the rapture (departure) happens first?  Clear as mud at night.

Anyone that makes this comment I just shake my head at. What it proves is you know how to repeat someone else's comment that was unintelligible when they made it 20 years ago and is still so 20 years later when repeated. 

The Passages says what it says, not what you just quoted someone else as saying years ago. 

The Day of the Lord ( God's Wrath..GET IT ? ) can not happen............UNTIL...........the Departure of the Church or Rapture.......AND....the Man of Sin comes forth...................[THEN the Day of the Lord or God's Wrath can come upon you].

What you quoted either proves you don't understand the passage at all, or you are being facetious on purpose. I mean no one can really confuse it the way you are doing on purpose can they ? 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

BANG HEAD.........BANG HEAD.........Harpazo is the Greek word Paul used...........it was translated to Latin as RAPIO........how can one not get this? This is too funny man, I have a hard time thinking you are serious here. Via your line of thinking only the English translation can be read. RAPIO and HARPAZO are the exact same thing, good grief. 

I said "rapture" does not appear in the GREEK. The KJV is not taken from the Vulgate, but rather the copies of the original writings. 

7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I offer facts continually. Paul was taught and the TAUGHT........We do the same, we are taught by the Holy Spirit then TEACH brother. I can't get someone with a closed mind to look at the facts. In theory, Rev. 19 should take all doubt away, as should Rev. 4:5 and 5:9. But people who believe certain things seem to let pride takeover.  I know this because my first 15 years as a Christian, I couldn't be wrong, and God finally showed me one day, if you can't ever be wrong son, you will never learn my truths in fell because only I am always write, follow the voice of the Spirit............God advice, since I started heeding that, I have learned to hear the small voice of the Spirit much clearer.

Sounds like you had  a rough time. Not sure how that verifies you are speaking truth.

7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

POINT BEING: If I know in my heart and mind something is a 100 percent truth, even if it hasn't been affirmed by the Holy Spirit, then I have no shot of hearing the Holy Spirit's "WHISPER" on the subject one day. I was like that on the timing of the Rapture, I always felt it was Pre-tribulation, but took no position on it because God had never affirmed it. Then when He called me to a deeper study of Prophecy, for these end times no doubt, I was shown in many ways why the Rapture has to be Pre-tribulation. But I wouldn't have heard that voice of I was 100 percent sure it was a Post tribulation rapture or a pre wrath rapture. Unless we know we shouldn't lock ourselves in, when the Holy Spirit affirms something, run with it.

See above.

7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

 

You and many others make the same mistake brother, EYE CANDY....You see this and its like eye candy that good offense gives the defense......

THINK NOW, where does the above say that the 6th Seal brought that Wrath that HAS COME ? Nowhere of course, the only thing that is mentioned is the fact that these supernatural events affirmed to these people that they were in the WRATH OF God. They were already in the Wrath of God, they just understand it because of the noted Sun and Moon prophetic uttering by Joel. When they see the 1st Sea it's just a man coming to power in a crude way, we have had that in many leaders like Hitler. Seal 2 is the Anti-Christ taking away PEACE........Well we have had many wars over the last 2000 years, WW1 and WW2 killed 100's of millions of people. Seal 3 and 4 are just the results of these Wars, nothing Supernatural has occurred at least in their eyes, it's just MORE WARS !! The 5th Seal is just Jesus and the Martyrs under the Altar in a spiritual sense. 

So when the Sun gives not its light and the moon turns blood red and the stars fall from Heaven.............if you lived through it all, not being of God, when would it hit you that OH MY.........THERE IS A GOD !! And we are in his wrath !! That would happen when the celestial events come to pass. The Wars are just evil men being evil and dumb as always.........It's the norm, men killing men over nothing. So they only UNDERSTAND they are in God's Wrath after they see the celestial events happen. 

Jesus opens ALL THE SEAL !! The Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering and to Conquer as allowed by Jesus, he thus kills 1.5 to 2 Billion people !! This is the Wrath of God on Mankind, he gives them their hearts desire, a tyrant to rule over them. You take a VISION of people who proclaim WE ARE IN THE WRATH OF GOD.........And you run with it that that is when God's Wrath begins, when it's clearly not the case. The Day of the Lord starts with Jesus opening the First Seal. God is perfect in His symmetry, he starts NOTHING in the middle. We should know this. Why is THEIR UNDERSTANDING contingent on when the Wrath of God actually begins ? It isn't. 

It is clear you are nothing more than a preacher.

Again, humbug.