Mark of the beast

[Jostler]

2 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

The archangel Michael is the guardian over Israel so cannot be the Restrainer.  The Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Godhead is the only one able to restrain Satan and the demonic forces.

I see that you believe that.  Can you give me something other than your assertions alone to verify it?  Is it in the Word with the same certainly you expressed it in your own words?

[Littlelambseativy]

Daniel 10:13:-21 Michel, one of the chief princes (archangel), fights the other prince (demon) who is over Persia who is against Israel and Daniel. The struggle was great since he was delayed in reaching Daniel and had to return to fight the same prince of Persia.

Daniel 12:1 Michael stands watch over Israel ( the sons of your people).

Jude vs 9 Michael the archangel contends with the Devil over Moses body. Again an Israelite.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Littlelambseativy

[Jostler]

1 hour ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Daniel 10:13:-21 Michel, one of the chief princes (archangel), fights the other prince (demon) who is over Persia who is against Israel and Daniel. The struggle was great since he was delayed in reaching Daniel and had to return to fight the same prince of Persia.

Daniel 12:1 Michael stands watch over Israel ( the sons of your people).

Jude vs 9 Michael the archangel contends with the Devil over Moses body. Again an Israelite.

Read Daniel again   It wasn't Michael who was held up for three weeks. 

Quote

Dan 10:13

“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

Michael was sent to help the angel that was being thwarted in his  mission...it appears that when Michael showed up the battle was over   But the angel speaking to Daniel is a different being than Michael...I don't think we've been given his name.  Some speculate it was Gabriel but I'm not aware of any  place that's confirmed.

In any case, that doesn't really affect the point you're trying to make. 

There is no doubt Michael has a special relationship to and authority in behalf of Israel.   But none of that indicates his role is LIMITED to that.  Can we directly tie his activity in Rev 12 exclusively to Israel?  We cannot.  And in fact is seems pretty obvious that "war in heaven" which involves MANY angels who seem to be under Michael's command...and who himself must obviously be under the command of the Commander of Hosts...Jesus, has human warriors involved in it in some fashion.

AFAIK, Michael can be involved in anything and everything his Commander desires him to be.

Quote

Rev 12:7-11

¶

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 

¶

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

If Michael and his angels can overcome the devil himself, and kick him out  of the heaven he now occupies, doesn't that give rise to a question about your statement that only the Holy Spirit can possibly "restrain" the Beast?  Obviously Michael and his cohort will be empowered to withstand satan himself.   The beast is a minion I feel safe assuming is of lesser power and authority than satan himself so on what basis do we assume Michael cannot handle the job of "restrainer"?

As to your assertion that Michael is a special guardian of Israel (and it's clear he is) but, is he limited to that?  The second paragraph implies there's more to his appointed tasks.  My best understanding is that this battle involves both angels AND men.  Angels have no need of the Blood...men do. 

So who is somehow fighting with Michael and his angels to accomplish this overthrow of the dragon's lair?

Given the point in time in question, I assume this is born again believers both Israelite and Gentile.  Who we already know He has made one in Him anyway. 

And another question.  If Michael has a special job of protecting Abraham's offspring why do we limit that to Abraham's natural seed when we see that it is we, including all who have been born again, who are Abraham's spiritual seed?  Grafted into the one olive tree....  Isn't it possible Michael is specially commissioned to protect ALL Israel?  Both natural and spiritual?

There is a lot here   It may not be as cut and dried as you currently believe.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Jostler

[ARGOSY]

12 hours ago, Jostler said:

I see that you believe that.  Can you give me something other than your assertions alone to verify it?  Is it in the Word with the same certainly you expressed it in your own words?

I don't agree with the Michael view. Neither do I agree with the view that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, we are looking for some entity that is KEEPING SECRETS, hiding the identity of the antichrist and hiding the secret lawlessness.  This is what the wording is saying, something is HIDING DARK SECRETS:

 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed..............And now you know what is holding him back (from being revealed), so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.  And then the lawless one will be revealed

Some claim there is a theme of lawlessness being held back by the Holy Spirit, but that is not reading the text clearly at all.  The text is saying the EXPOSURE/REVEALING  of the antichrist is being held back, and this is a SECRET lawlessness that ALREADY EXISTS.

Some evil entity is keeping secrets folks!! To know who, we have to look through scripture for an evil entity removed suddenly from his place of authority, at the same time the antichrist comes to power for 42 months.

Edited February 12, 2019 by ARGOSY

[Michael37]

To whom it may concern:

The rise of the two beasts in the ultimate zenith of opposition to God, one from the sea of sinful humanity and the other from the earth of evil vanity, is in actuality God's judgment, as was the flood in the days of Noah.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

[Jostler]

4 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I don't agree with the Michael view. Neither do I agree with the view that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, we are looking for some entity that is KEEPING SECRETS, hiding the identity of the antichrist and hiding the secret lawlessness.  This is what the wording is saying, something is HIDING DARK SECRETS:

 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed..............And now you know what is holding him back (from being revealed), so that he may be revealed at the proper time.  For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.  And then the lawless one will be revealed

Some claim there is a theme of lawlessness being held back by the Holy Spirit, but that is not reading the text clearly at all.  The text is saying the EXPOSURE/REVEALING  of the antichrist is being held back, and this is a SECRET lawlessness that ALREADY EXISTS.

Some evil entity is keeping secrets folks!! To know who, we have to look through scripture for an evil entity removed suddenly from his place of authority, at the same time the antichrist comes to power for 42 months.

That's a very interesting take on that passage I have never been exposed to til now.  I have some "logical" objections but nothing in the way  of Biblical objections springs to mind immediately.

If your interpretation here is correct, then  that would make it seem the devil himself is somehow the restrainer, and he is restraining (by secrecy?) his own beast's revealing until what he  believes is the proper, opportune time.

Is what I just described an accurate reflection of what you were trying  to convey?

 

Edit to add:  Try to keep an open mind about the Michael angle.  I didn't link to the video I mentioned above because I want to discuss it with its creator...believing I may have some missing pieces.  The video is posted in a public place so I guess I wouldn't be violating any confidence in posting it, but he *might* want to modify it slightly if it turns out i really do see something there he's overlooked.  He's done some solid work so far IMO and he strikes me as the type that is married to the truth ...not to any specific doctrine or interpretation so I'm pretty confident we can discuss and benefit from discussion and perhaps both come away with a better understanding of the Word.  I lean heavily on Paul's assertion that we "know in part" and "prophesy" in part for my understanding of how God works to reveal truth.  I EXPECT Him to use others to fill in gaps in my "knowing" and I expect to have gaps believing He does not choose to give any one servant the whole story.  He's a God of relationships and does not want ANY of us to be completely self sufficient "island" ...but a Body, one in Him.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Jostler

[ARGOSY]

28 minutes ago, Jostler said:

That's a very interesting take on that passage I have never been exposed to til now.  I have some "logical" objections but nothing in the way  of Biblical objections springs to mind immediately.

If your interpretation here is correct, then  that would make it seem the devil himself is somehow the restrainer, and he is restraining (by secrecy?) his own beast's revealing until what he  believes is the proper, opportune time.

Is what I just described an accurate reflection of what you were trying  to convey?

 

Edit to add:  Try to keep an open mind about the Michael angle.  I didn't link to the video I mentioned above because I want to discuss it with its creator...believing I may have some missing pieces.  The video is posted in a public place so I guess I wouldn't be violating any confidence in posting it, but he *might* want to modify it slightly if it turns out i really do see something there he's overlooked.  He's done some solid work so far IMO and he strikes me as the type that is married to the truth ...not to any specific doctrine or interpretation so I'm pretty confident we can discuss and benefit from discussion and perhaps both come away with a better understanding of the Word.  I lean heavily on Paul's assertion that we "know in part" and "prophesy" in part for my understanding of how God works to reveal truth.  I EXPECT Him to use others to fill in gaps in my "knowing" and I expect to have gaps believing He does not choose to give any one servant the whole story.  He's a God of relationships and does not want ANY of us to be completely self sufficient "island" ...but a Body, one in Him.

Yes wise words, we are always learning, and no particular individual knows it all. 

Yes my take is that it is the devil as per Rev 12. You see , he knows the antichrist coming to power is his "short time of wrath" as per Rev 12, and he dreads that, it makes him angry that his time is short. The church mandate is to usher in the end through our testimony. Satan's is to delay the end by hindering the Gospel, and thereby delaying his demise. He is keeping the agenda secret. He is avoiding the antichrist coming to power. (Opposite to the common teaching that he is rushing the One World Govt).

 

Rev 12 describes all this, and we the church victoriously conquer Satan, who is taken out of his place in heaven at the same time the antichrist is revealed. The withholder of the secret lawlessness is removed , creating the great revealing. 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by ARGOSY

[Littlelambseativy]

Stop and think Who is strong enough to restrain Satan.

some say the devil is the Restrainer...is he mightier than the Holy Spirit Who was active in the creation of the universe? Who keeps each member of the church safe...No...satan cannot withstand the Holy Spirit, Who strengthened Jesus against Satan when He was tempted.

Some say the church is the Restrainer... is the church mightier than the Holy Spirit..or does the church depend ON the Holy Spirit to keep it safe and free from sin...can the church ( even United ) withstand Satan? I cannot accept that. The members of the church still sin daily and need forgiveness daily.

the ONLY One who can restrain Satan is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit Who does God’s bidding.... the Holy Spirit Who  is God.

[Mystic_Pizza]

Rev. 9, has the sixth angel with the trumpet being told by 'a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God' to let loose the four (fallen) angels held at the Euphrates river, so that they go out and destroy 1/3 of mankind. This isn't the verse being talked about in this forum, but I'm using it as an example of something holding evil back, letting it loose, and who it is with the authority to loosen. It would seem that a mighty strength would be the Restrainer...it doesn't seem it would be Satan. Of course I'm not 100% sure it isn't, but it just doesn't seem that it would be.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Mystic_Pizza

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Stop and think Who is strong enough to restrain Satan.

some say the devil is the Restrainer...is he mightier than the Holy Spirit Who was active in the creation of the universe? Who keeps each member of the church safe...No...satan cannot withstand the Holy Spirit, Who strengthened Jesus against Satan when He was tempted.

Some say the church is the Restrainer... is the church mightier than the Holy Spirit..or does the church depend ON the Holy Spirit to keep it safe and free from sin...can the church ( even United ) withstand Satan? I cannot accept that. The members of the church still sin daily and need forgiveness daily.

the ONLY One who can restrain Satan is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit Who does God’s bidding.... the Holy Spirit Who  is God.

I think you are half right. The thing is, the Holy Spirit has no authority on earth - ONLY what believers give Him. Satan is still the spiritual ruler of this planet. So the Holy Spirit IS the restrainer, but He restrains by working through the church. When the church is suddenly raptured, the Holy Spirit will have no believers whom He can work through. Then the man of sin can be revealed at the proper time. I am convinced that the 2 Thes. 2 departing is the church being "taken out of the way."

Edited February 13, 2019 by iamlamad