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R. Hartono

The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

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16 hours ago, Diaste said:

“Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

People will be working in the field WHEN THE SUN STILL SHINES, because we cannot work the field in the night.

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

so when the rapture takes place the sun will still be shining.

The sun will be darkened when the 4th angel sound the trumpet in the tribulation :

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

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9 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Mat 24:22  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

 

If you are left behind like foolish virgins, no good for God to shorten the day as you will be destined to be martyred if you dare and your souls will be place under the altar until your the number of your fellows shall be fulfilled.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

GOD WILL SHORTEN THE DAYS FOR THE RAPTURE of  WISE VIRGINS / THE GREAT MULTITUDE BE4 THE THRONE.

Edited by R. Hartono

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Just now, R. Hartono said:

If you are left behind like foolish virgins, no good for God to shorten the day as you will be destined to be martyred if you dare and your souls will be place under the altar until your the number of your fellows shall be fulfilled.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

GOD WILL SHORTEN THE DAYS FOR THE RAPTURE WISE VIRGINS / THE GREAT MULTITUDE BE4 THE THRONE. DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEART IN THIS LAST DAYS, JESUS WILL NOT BE HONOURED IF HIS BRIDE IS DEAD BODIES BEATEN BLACK AND BLUE BE4 MARRIAGE.

Again, none of this addresses how people from Revelation 7 who are said to come out of the "great tribulation" are supposedly raptured 3-1/2 years before that even starts.

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2 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Again, none of this addresses how people from Revelation 7 who are said to come out of the "great tribulation" are supposedly raptured 3-1/2 years before that even starts.

The great tribulation is our present world when the hour of temptation starts and Jesus promise to keep us from the hour of temptation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I dare not ban you from believing that you need to be in the great tribulation first but if you are left you will end up as souls under the Altar providing you dare to put your head under the guillotine.

 

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1 minute ago, R. Hartono said:

The great tribulation is our present world when the hour of temptation starts and Jesus promise to keep us from the hour of temptation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I dare not ban you from believing that you need to be in the great tribulation first but if you are left you will end up as souls under the Altar providing you dare to put your head under the guillotine.

 

Jesus said with specificity that the great tribulation starts after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 
Mat 24:17  Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 
Mat 24:18  And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 
Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 
Mat 24:20  And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 
Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 

So it cannot be now.

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3 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

We are most certainly not in the great tribulation.

Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 
Mat 24:22  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

I don't think anything that is currently happening or has happened in history can be compared to the flood, which is the greatest calamity to befall humanity thus far. As such, one can confidently assert that we aren't anywhere in the vicinity of "great tribulation, such as has not been seen since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor shall ever be."

Shalom, Steve_S.

Ah, but you see, the word is "world" not "earth." We're not talking about the Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay"); we're talking about the Greek word "kosmos!"

2889 kosmos (kos'-mos). Probably from the base of komizoo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) -- adorning, world.

This is a word used to talk about CIVILIZATION and the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments currently in place in Yeshua`s time! The beginning of the "world" was AFTER Noach's Flood! So, this time of trouble and pressure is not including this "greatest calamity."

Furthermore, this is not the ONLY occurrence the Greek word "thlipsis" (translated "tribulation") in the Olivet Discourse. We also have...

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And, Yeshua` was specifically talking TO HIS DISCIPLES sitting right there before Him with the word "you" (Greek: humas = you [second person, plural, accusative case]). He wasn't talking to them about future generations at that point in His discourse! 

Therefore, I believe we CAN "confidently assert" that we ARE in the "great tribulation."

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11 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

And, Yeshua` was specifically talking TO HIS DISCIPLES sitting right there before Him with the word "you" (Greek: humas = you [second person, plural, accusative case]). He wasn't talking to them about future generations at that point in His discourse! 

Therefore, I believe we CAN "confidently assert" that we ARE in the "great tribulation."

Exactly Jesus said that particularly to the early church who were persecuted by the Roman, fed to lions,

The great tribulation is our present world when the hour of temptation starts and Jesus promise the churches to keep us from the hour of temptation.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

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2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Steve_S.

Ah, but you see, the word is "world" not "earth." We're not talking about the Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay"); we're talking about the Greek word "kosmos!"

2889 kosmos (kos'-mos). Probably from the base of komizoo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) -- adorning, world.

This is a word used to talk about CIVILIZATION and the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments currently in place in Yeshua`s time! The beginning of the "world" was AFTER Noach's Flood! So, this time of trouble and pressure is not including this "greatest calamity."

Interesting. So since you assert that "kosmos" means the world system of governments currently in place in Christ's time period, let's look at how that word is used contextually and the implications of such a claim.

Mat 25:33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 
Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In your opinion is this kingdom only prepared for the sheep from the foundation of the world system present during Christ's time period? Was it from the creation of the world? Or was the plan of the kingdom only formulated by God after the flood?

Here's another.

Rev 13:8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (kosmos).

Do you assert that the "world" in this context (kosmos) is only speaking of "civilization?"... From the "foundation of civilization?" That doesn't really fit contextually locally or broadly.

If the beginning of the world (kosmos) was "after Noah's flood" as you state, then God's plans for salvation did not begin until after Noah's flood, which is simply scripturally untenable and certainly does not reasonably line up with a God we know to be entirely omniscient. Either the great tribulation itself is going to be worse than the flood or God's plans for salvation did not start until after the flood. Using your own methodology of interpretation, it cannot be both.

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, this is not the ONLY occurrence the Greek word "thlipsis" (translated "tribulation") in the Olivet Discourse. We also have...

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsin = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

They shall deliver you up "into tribulation" is not an unreasonable manner of putting that phrase. However, this is different than the phrase found in Matthew 24:21. Let's take a look:

Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Great tribulation here is not eis thilipsis. It is "megas thilipsis," which has an entirely different connotation, of course. This is why the translators of the NKJV chose to translate 24:9 "deliver you up to tribulation" while they maintained "great tribulation" as the translation for 24:21, because the the adjective megas modifies the noun thilipsis.

In the case of Matthew 24:9, eis thilipsis is a noun preceded by a preposition. In other words, comparing "eis thilipsis" to "megas thilipsis" is gramatically equivalent to comparing apples and oranges, so I'm unsure why that was even broached.

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

And, Yeshua` was specifically talking TO HIS DISCIPLES sitting right there before Him with the word "you" (Greek: humas = you [second person, plural, accusative case]). He wasn't talking to them about future generations at that point in His discourse! 

This is an interesting assertion as well. Let's take a look at Matthew 5.

Mat 5:11  "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 
Mat 5:12  Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you
Salt and Light
Mat 5:13  "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 
Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 

Are you are prepared to mount the same defense for these verses insofar as there only being a local and immediate application to the group to whom Christ was speaking?

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5 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Again, none of this addresses how people from Revelation 7 who are said to come out of the "great tribulation" are supposedly raptured 3-1/2 years before that even starts.

Steve,

Where in this verse Jesus said "coming out of the great tribulation" ???

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

He says  to keep us from the hour of temptation /be4 it begins.

Edited by R. Hartono

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6 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

People will be working in the field WHEN THE SUN STILL SHINES, because we cannot work the field in the night.

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

so when the rapture takes place the sun will still be shining.

The sun will be darkened when the 4th angel sound the trumpet in the tribulation :

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

Since the sun goes out mere moment before the Lord appears what time of day has no bearing on this. What about those on the dark side? The sun is already down.

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