The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

[ForHisGlory37]

On 11/20/2018 at 8:24 PM, R. Hartono said:

ARE YOU THE KIND OF BRIDEGROOM WHO WILL LET YOUR BRIDE BEING BEATEN BLACK AND BLUE FIRST BY WICKED PEOPLE ?

There are many verses from Scripture that are opposite of what you are arguing for -

1.  2 Thessalonians 1:4-5   4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.

2.  Philippians 1:20-21   20  According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.  21 For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

3.  Philippians 1:29  for unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

4.  Romans  8:36  As it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

5.  Luke 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

6.  Matthew 24:9, 13 -  9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

7.  Mark  8:34-35 -  34....whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

8.  Mark  13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten:  and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 

9.  1 Corinthians 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest : for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

10.  2 Corinthians 1: 5,6- 5  For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.  6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

11.  2 Corinthians 6:4-5 -  4  But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience,  in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,  5 In sripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings;

 

I could go on....  Jesus said that we would suffer much but that He would help us when that "hour of temptation" comes, the whole world will be tested in having to choose between Jesus and the ac.  But if we have Jesus, He will give us the strength to stand firm for Him.  We need not fear because God's Perfect Love casts out all fear, even fear of the guillotine and being beheaded for our faith.

Edited November 23, 2018 by ForHisGlory37

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RH,

"Jesus will not let His bride beaten black and blue by antichrist."

Why wouldn't He? Did Jesus not get beaten black and blue? Even worse, scripture tells us He was not even recognizable?

John 15:20....."Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’^[a] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also"

John 16:33.....""These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

What is the purpose of the tribulation for Christians?

It is for us to give our testimony. There could be 10's or 100's of millions of Christians that will be put to death. This will be the "hour of testing".  Will we walk away or will we stand strong?

There are currently millions of Christians facing persecution to the point of death. Where is the promise of an early rapture for them? 

From the time of the Apostles till now (eleven of the Apostles were crucified), hundreds of millions of Christians have been slaughtered. Why would our time be any different? Why would only our "Church" be rescued by an early rapture? Doesn't make sense!

Those are tough questions to answer, and great points from the truth of scripture.

Let us all be counted worthy to suffer for the name of Jesus and attain God's favor.

I'm counting on Him to help me through what's coming and to die with praises on my lips. My flesh is weak and I will need His strength. We all will.

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, SelahSong said:

So glad our Father in His mercy chose to shorten the time to 5 months.

Hi,

How do you know this?

[frienduff thaylorde]

51 minutes ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

There are many verses from Scripture that is opposite of what you are arguing for -

1.  2 Thessalonians 1:4-5   4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of god, for which ye also suffer.

2.  Philippians 1:20-21   20  According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.  21 For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

3.  Philippians 1:29  for unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

4.  Romans  8:36  As it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

5.  Luke 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

6.  Matthew 24:9, 13 -  9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

7.  Mark  8:34-35 -  34....whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

8.  Mark  13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten:  and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 

9.  1 Corinthians 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest : for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

10.  2 Corinthians 1: 5,6- 5  For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.  6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

11.  2 Corinthians 6:4-5 -  4  But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience,  in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,  5 In sripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings;

 

I could go on....  Jesus said that we would suffer much but that He would help us when that "hour of temptation" comes, the whole world will be tested in having to choose between Jesus and the ac.  But if we have Jesus, He will give us the strength to stand firm for Him.  We need not fear because God's Perfect Love casts out all fear, even fear of the guillotine and being beheaded for our faith.

OH dear sister , what a gem of wonderous beauties .     And here is another reminder .    And as we suffer for him , oh HE sure consoles us BY HIS SPIRIT .

OH what pure beauty , what upmost joy of mind , soul , heart that all who suffer for HIS SAKE DO HAVE .    OH peter and others could just sing with such joy and pure hope

in their hearts even in prison .  OH the great joy of knowing the LORD , the peace HE does so give all who believe in HIM , all who learn of HIM , all who suffer for HIS NAME SAKE .

AND what a rejoicing it is .      And they REJIOCED that they HAD BEEN COUNTED WORTHY ,   counted worthy of what ,  SUFFERING SHAME FOR HIS NAME .

WHEN It says the PEACE of GOD passes ALL understanding .    REST ON IT .   for the world cannot receive nor understand how one can suffer for CHRIST , lose everything

be outcast ,  be beaten ,  and YET   one would think they WON the PRIZE of all, THE WAY THEY REJOICED .     OH YES , the church needs some serious reminding

of where ITS HOPES and AFFECTIONS SHOULD BE and where they ought not be .    SET THOSE AFFECTIONS above on HE WHO SAVED US ,   and though

we will have tribulation in this world ,     GOT NOTHING BUT SONGS OF JOY no matter WHAT COMES against us    .  TALK about the abundant life

THE PEACE one has WHO knows the LORD is a peace nothing in this world will ever know .  For men have peace IF they GOT things , BUT its a peace that don't last

if threat or harm or any circumstance or any worry comes against .  BUT SISTER ,  we got peace NO MATTER WHAT comes against us , not even threat of our lives

WILL cause a lamb fear .   TO be absent from the body Is what ..............GREAT GAIN .   OH I cannot give the increase of what has been given me ,   ONLY GOD CAN.

BUT I CAN POINT TO THE ONE WHO DOES .     OH yes .    JESUS THE KING the SAVOIR of our soul . 

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

There are many verses from Scripture that is opposite of what you are arguing for -

1.  2 Thessalonians 1:4-5   4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of god, for which ye also suffer.

2.  Philippians 1:20-21   20  According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.  21 For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

3.  Philippians 1:29  for unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

4.  Romans  8:36  As it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

5.  Luke 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

6.  Matthew 24:9, 13 -  9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

7.  Mark  8:34-35 -  34....whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

8.  Mark  13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten:  and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 

9.  1 Corinthians 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest : for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

10.  2 Corinthians 1: 5,6- 5  For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.  6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

11.  2 Corinthians 6:4-5 -  4  But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience,  in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,  5 In sripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings;

 

I could go on....  Jesus said that we would suffer much but that He would help us when that "hour of temptation" comes, the whole world will be tested in having to choose between Jesus and the ac.  But if we have Jesus, He will give us the strength to stand firm for Him.  We need not fear because God's Perfect Love casts out all fear, even fear of the guillotine and being beheaded for our faith.

For it is the righteous judgment of GOD that we be counted worthy of the kingom for which we SUFFER .   manifest TOKEN of the righteous judgment of GOD .

OH sister what hope we have .     But here is even a reminder from paul to the phillipians .   BUT I GOT ALL  and I abound . 

Now lets examine that .   Paul said But I have ALLLL and that he aboundes.

YET he was IN PRISON awaiting a sentence .     YEAH .      THE LORD IS WITH US SISTER and WHAT HOPE WE TOO HAVE and WILL HAVE no matter what comes against us .

BECAUSE our hope is not in circumstances ,   ITS IN JESUS the SAVOIR OF OUR SOUL and WE REJOICE because HE SAVED US .      NOW leap for JOY SISTER .

Cause in this world ,  Great persecution is coming for us all WHO LOVE THE LORD .      I simply say , no matter what ,  may the LORD be glorified in my life and even in my death .

And no matter what we suffer , may HE BE GLORIFIED .   OH sister , I cannot put in words the PEACE I have .    And it only increases .  PRAISE THE LORD SISTER .  

[Diaste]

38 minutes ago, SelahSong said:

Revelation 9:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

… 

I think this is during the time of the locust army. I need to study Revelation again; it’s been a while.… or is it 3.5 years? 

 

I don't know exactly. I mean, no one does, can't know I suppose. It's my hope it does pass quickly; I suspect not. But, if you have some insight I'd love to hear.

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Those are tough questions to answer, and great points from the truth of scripture.

Let us all be counted worthy to suffer for the name of Jesus and attain God's favor.

I'm counting on Him to help me through what's coming and to die with praises on my lips. My flesh is weak and I will need His strength. We all will.

FOR OUR LORD will be with us unto the end .     peter , paul and others sang songs to the LORD even in prison .   And I with great sense of urgency do warn us all

When this delusion has ran its course and the world , religions and faiths have come to the fullness of this all inclusive lie and unite

as one in the largest world wide ecumincal movment that has ever been or will be again.    WE GET BETRAYED AND HUNTED .    

And time is running out .    I see the way its going and that it is speeding up .    the whole world is on a fast pace delusion that will and is leading all

to the BEAST who is to rise .   LET no man take that wicked mark that is coming .   have no fear .   have All hope IN OUR LORD .

and whether we live or die , WE THE LORDS .     ITS coming , it wont be stopped .  ITS COMING and it will rise as one against the few lambs who resisted the lie .

[Diaste]

On 11/21/2018 at 5:51 AM, Heleadethme said:

Like Peter, when he tried to talk Jesus out of going to the cross, you are having in mind the things of man here, not the things of God.  We need to look at persecution and martyrdom from heaven's perspective, not man's earthly perspective.  From heaven's perspective persecution and martyrdom is the preparation of the Bride.....and it is victory not defeat.  Just like Jesus went to the cross and was perfected in His sufferings, and in doing so defeated the devil.  From heaven's perspective we are to count it all joy......because it means we belong to Him.

Indeed. This should be our perspective as well; God's will for our life in eternity. Too many think of this life as the reward.

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, SelahSong said:

So glad our Father in His mercy chose to shorten the time to 5 months. But the time of tribulation is a time when many people will be tempted to worship Satan as he will be quite convincing (tempting), and many will worship him —- but not God’s Elect! We will not be deceived. Hallelujah! We’ll stand firm until Jesus returns at the 7th trump — Amen!
 

Amen sister .   stand firm .      if we take notice the locusts are not allowed to come near the saints .     The five months of torment is against the ungodly .

Want to hear a nugget .     Notice in genesis ,  the rains were what ,  ONE HUNDRED and FIFTY days .    OR five months .

same with the destruction of the angels a year a month a day etc .     we see a connection.     NOW leap up sister and praise the LORD .

The last hour is falling into place and our betrayel is coming world wide .    OH let every one who names the name of JESUS , be fully minded that to suffer for his sake

is a badge of honor .    NO fear of man ,   GOD IS OUR HELPER and let all say I SHALL NOT FEAR what man can do to me .   WE GOT ALL HOPE , OUR LORD IS OUR HOPE .

 

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Interesting. So since you assert that "kosmos" means the world system of governments currently in place in Christ's time period, let's look at how that word is used contextually and the implications of such a claim.

Mat 25:33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 
Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

In your opinion is this kingdom only prepared for the sheep from the foundation of the world system present during Christ's time period? Was it from the creation of the world? Or was the plan of the kingdom only formulated by God after the flood?

Here's another.

Rev 13:8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (kosmos).

Do you assert that the "world" in this context (kosmos) is only speaking of "civilization?"... From the "foundation of civilization?" That doesn't really fit contextually locally or broadly.

If the beginning of the world (kosmos) was "after Noah's flood" as you state, then God's plans for salvation did not begin until after Noah's flood, which is simply scripturally untenable and certainly does not reasonably line up with a God we know to be entirely omniscient. Either the great tribulation itself is going to be worse than the flood or God's plans for salvation did not start until after the flood. Using your own methodology of interpretation, it cannot be both.

Shalom, Steve_S, and Happy Thanksgiving.

First, let me say thank you for "taking the high road," and being willing to honestly discuss the matter. Many just blow me off or totally ignore what I've said. You may secretly FEEL the same way, but at least you're a gentleman.

I KNEW I should have pursued the link in the Strong's entry on "kosmos." Let's do that now:

2889 kosmos (kos'-mos). Probably from the base of komizoo; orderly arrangement, i.e. Decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively (morally)) -- adorning, world.

2865 komizoo (kom-id'-zo). From a primary komeoo (to tend, i.e. Take care of); properly, to provide for, i.e. (by implication) to carry off (as if from harm; genitive case obtain) -- bring, receive.

Thus, "kosmos" also refers to that which God "provides for" or "takes care of." Matthew 25 is still part of the Olivet Discourse, even though only Matthew records these words.

Now, what IS the "kingdom prepared for you?" And, who ARE the "you" about whom He speaks? Well, the second question is the easiest; Yeshua` tells us who they are.

Matthew 25:34-40 (KJV, with quotation marks and identifying colors)

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Greek: apo katabolees kosmou = "from a-laying-down of-that-which-God-provides-for-and-takes-care-of") : 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me."

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

"Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?"

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

They are those who humanely treated His "brethren," a masculine word used to include both males and females, His brothers and sisters, even the "least of them."

And, who are His "brethren?" That answer is simple: Yeshua` said,

Matthew 12:46-50 (KJV, with quotation marks and identifying colors)

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without (outside), desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him,

"Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without (outside), desiring to speak with thee."

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him,

"Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?"

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,

"Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven (Greek: en ouranois = "in [the] skies"), the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Therefore, His "brethren" are "whoever shall do the will of His Father who is in the skies," who at the time were only children of Israel, particularly those of the tribe of Yhudah ("Jews"), to whom He came and today include Gentiles who are grafted into the "Olive Tree!" (Romans 11.)

Now, the "kingdom of God" didn't start when God creating human beings. God's Kingdom started with the Exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt, and God was their King. Later, when Israel asked for a king like all the other nations had, God said,

1 Samuel 8:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD said unto Samuel,

"Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them."

After the fiasco of King Sha'uwl's (Saul's) disobedience, God anointed David (pronounced "Dah-VEED") to be king, a "man after God's own heart." (1 Samuel 13:14 and 16:12.) And, God said the following to King David:

2 Samuel 7:4-17 (KJV, with quotation marks and identifying colors)

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David, 'Thus saith the LORD, "Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 
6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?"'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, 'Thus saith the LORD of hosts, "I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity (if He becomes bent or twisted), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever." 

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

And, these words are DEFINITELY talking about the future, promised Messiah and not Shlomoh ("Solomon" for Shlomoh began his reign BEFORE David "slept with his fathers." Furthermore, they are reinforced by the prophecy made to Miryam ("Mary") by Gavri'el ("Gabriel") in Luke 1:30-33:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV, with quotation marks and identifying colors)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

And these words exactly reflect those said to David above.

And, David acknowledged that GOD was HIS King, in spite of he being king of Israel:

Psalm 5:1-2 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David.}

Give ear to my words, O LORD (Hebrew: YHWH, the name of God), consider my meditation.
2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

So, in this particular case, the Kingdom IS the specific "civilization" and "government" to which Yeshua` was referring, that group of people over whom God "took special care" and for whom God "made provision," the children of Israel, and they are the Kingdom of God.

***

Regarding Revelation 13:8, consider the context:

Revelation 13:1-9 (KJV)

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped (bowed down to) the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped (bowed down to) the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

This is reminiscent of Daniel 7:

Daniel 7:1-8 (KJV)

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 2 Daniel spake and said,

"I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things."

So, in this particular case, I believe that it is since the beginning of the civilization of these world empires to which Yochanan (John) was referring.

 

15 hours ago, Steve_S said:

They shall deliver you up "into tribulation" is not an unreasonable manner of putting that phrase. However, this is different than the phrase found in Matthew 24:21. Let's take a look:

Mat 24:21  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Great tribulation here is not eis thilipsis. It is "megas thilipsis," which has an entirely different connotation, of course. This is why the translators of the NKJV chose to translate 24:9 "deliver you up to tribulation" while they maintained "great tribulation" as the translation for 24:21, because the the adjective megas modifies the noun thilipsis.

In the case of Matthew 24:9, eis thilipsis is a noun preceded by a preposition. In other words, comparing "eis thilipsis" to "megas thilipsis" is gramatically equivalent to comparing apples and oranges, so I'm unsure why that was even broached.

I wasn't comparing "eis thlipsis" to "megas thlipsis"; I know my Greek prepositions. I was commenting on the fact that "thlipsis" is mentioned in the Olivet Discourse for both the First Century A.D. AND just before our Lord returns! What made it a "megas thlipsis," if to be taken absolutely, is that IT NEVER ENDED and it STILL hasn't ended! Yeshua` was warning His JEWISH disciples that the pressure wouldn't END until He returns!

Think of the Tribulation as a mountain RANGE: It has peaks and valleys but even the valleys are well above sea level. When Yeshua` said,

Matthew 24:15-25 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house (i.e., take the Road of the Rooftops out of the city walls): 
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back (into the city) to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ (the Messiah), or there (He is); believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs (fake Messiahs), and false prophets (fake prophets), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect (the very Chosen Seed). 25 Behold, I have told you before(hand).

He was telling us many things: First, it would be in the First Century when it started because the issue is within the city of Jerusalem with walls, the OLD CITY! This warning makes no sense for modern Jerusalem.

Second, He was saying that IF their escape had to be made in the winter (with the cold, snow, and ice) or on the Shabbat (when they couldn't legally travel too far), THEN there would be "great tribulation" ("megas thlipsis") because they wouldn't be able to get away quick enough! This phrase "megas thlipsis" is not to be taken It's a CONDITIONAL STATEMENT!

Third, thinking about that mountain range with its peaks and valleys, Yeshua` promised that those actual days of tribulation ("pressure; distress") would be curtailed; i.e., using the example, the valleys would be brought down to sea level for a time. There would still be the mountain tops of great distress, but there would be REPRIEVES from time to time so the children of Israel would not be totally wiped out. It just wouldn't end until He returns.

This "tribulation" ("thlipsis") has not ended; its wheels were put into motion when Yeshua` pronounced the Jews "desolate," began in earnest at the destruction of the Temple and the dispersing of the Jews in 70 A.D. and after, and it won't end until they can say TO YESHUA` "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

15 hours ago, Steve_S said:

This is an interesting assertion as well. Let's take a look at Matthew 5.

Mat 5:11  "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 
Mat 5:12  Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 
Salt and Light
Mat 5:13  "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 
Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 

Are you are prepared to mount the same defense for these verses insofar as there only being a local and immediate application to the group to whom Christ was speaking?

To whom was Yeshua` talking? As early as Matthew 5 is in the gospel account of Matthew, He was talking to the children of Israel to whom He was sent! That's the "you" in these verses. That we can APPLY these verses to us today doesn't mean that He was speaking to US! We use many Scriptures for applications, but they weren't really addressed to us directly. Ten chapters LATER we read...

Matthew 15:21-24 (KJV with quotation marks and identifying colors)

21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying,

"Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil."

23 But he answered her not a word.
And his disciples came and besought him, saying,

"Send her away (satisfied); for she crieth after us (His disciples)."

24 But he answered and said,

"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 

There's a lot of background material that is foreign to many Christian groups today. I hope this has made some sense to you.