Hebrews 9:16-17 (when a testament / covenant begins)

[JohnD]

Clearly, the New Testament / Covenant did not begin until the death of Christ on the cross (which he affirmed in that the third cup of Passover he said was the cup of the New Covenant IN HIS BLOOD). 

Does this not put events prior to his death on the cross in the Old Testament / Covenant?

[JustPassingThru]

Yep!  That's What He meant when He said, "It is finished," it referring to the old covenant made with Israel.

Luke's account of the Passover meal provides the most details:

And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.  And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:  For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.   And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Luke 22:14-18

That was the Passover meal, the eating of the Passover Lamb with the unleavened bread, the celebration of the Passover was finished.

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.  Luke 22:19,20

That was the institution of the Communion Service which Paul also gave to us through his letter to the Corinthian Church.

 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.  1 Cor 11:23-25

[Willa]

47 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Clearly, the New Testament / Covenant did not begin until the death of Christ on the cross (which he affirmed in that the third cup of Passover he said was the cup of the New Covenant IN HIS BLOOD). 

Does this not put events prior to his death on the cross in the Old Testament / Covenant?

Yes.  Jesus answered people according to the requirements of the law which they were still under.  The New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ.  The Old Covenant was ratified by the blood of calves and goats.

Heb 9:17  For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18  Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

Heb 9:19  For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,

Heb 9:20  saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."

[R. Hartono]

Old Testament use animal blood which was only the shadow

[JohnD]

Okay. So events in the Gospels prior to Christ's death on the cross were Old Testament.

[wingnut-]

24 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Okay. So events in the Gospels prior to Christ's death on the cross were Old Testament.

 

I would say Old Covenant to avoid confusion myself, but yes, the New Covenant begins with the sacrifice.

[JohnD]

So... the Sermon on the Mount was Old Testament?

[JohnD]

The "Lord's Prayer" was Old Covenant?

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

So... the Sermon on the Mount was Old Testament?

 

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

The "Lord's Prayer" was Old Covenant?

 

I wouldn't say that.  It may have occurred prior to the new covenant being enacted, but most of Jesus' ministry on earth was instruction and examples for us to follow under the new covenant.  I would think of it more as a time of transition from what was, to what would be.

[discipler777]

On 12/17/2018 at 7:03 AM, JohnD said:

Clearly, the New Testament / Covenant did not begin until the death of Christ on the cross (which he affirmed in that the third cup of Passover he said was the cup of the New Covenant IN HIS BLOOD). 

Does this not put events prior to his death on the cross in the Old Testament / Covenant?

.

The Old Covenant between God and man = salvation or saved from hell by keeping the Law.

The New Covenant between God and man = salvation by having faith in Jesus Christ alone.

cf: LUKE.16:19-31, MATTHEW.17:3 & 27:52, 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6.

.

The New Testament consists of the History of Jesus the Christ/Messiah/Saviour, ie His birth, ministry, death, resurrection, ascension and kingdom = acts and letters of the apostles and disciples. The Jews believe only in the Old Testament and are still waiting for their Messiah/Christ/Saviour. The Jews reject the New Testament, Jesus Christ and everything about Him or His kingdom. 

The New Testament includes the New Covenant-salvation but is not the same as the New Covenant. Similarly, the Old Testament includes the pre-Law, the Noah Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Law, the Old Covenant-salvation, acts of the prophets/prophetesses, judges, kings and the prophecies of the Prophets but is not the same as the Old Covenant.

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Edited December 23, 2018 by discipler777