An atheist requires an answer

[Michael37]

38 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 God did no know how Abraham would choose until he chose. We are all free to chose which way we will go.

This might seem like a sidetrack but I believe it is important to the discussion. Where it would seem God is not omniscient and doesn't know something, such as when Adam and Eve hid because of their disobedience and the death of their former innocent relationship with God, the truth is that in eternity God always knows everything, but condescends to mankind, as it were, in response to temporal actions that require Him to relate in a temporal manner.     

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are you?

Previously there was no need to ask such a question, but now there is because now God has tasked Himself with seeking sinners, calling to them, asking for a truthful response .

I like what John Wesley has commented about Genesis 22:12
Lay not thine hand upon the lad - God's time to help his people is, when they are brought to the greatest extremity: the more eminent the danger is, and the nearer to be put in execution, the more wonderful and the more welcome is the deliverance. Now know I that thou fearest God - God knew it before, but now Abraham had given a memorable evidence of it. He need do no more, what he had done was sufficient to prove the religious regard he had to God and his authority. The best evidence of our fearing God is our being willing to honour him with that which is dearest to us, and to part with all to him, or for him.

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

This might seem like a sidetrack but I believe it is important to the discussion. Where it would seem God is not omniscient and doesn't know something, such as when Adam and Eve hid because of their disobedience and the death of their former innocent relationship with God, the truth is that in eternity God always knows everything, but condescends to mankind, as it were, in response to temporal actions that require Him to relate in a temporal manner.     

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are you?

Previously there was no need to ask such a question, but now there is because now God has tasked Himself with seeking sinners, calling to them, asking for a truthful response .

I like what John Wesley has commented about Genesis 22:12
Lay not thine hand upon the lad - God's time to help his people is, when they are brought to the greatest extremity: the more eminent the danger is, and the nearer to be put in execution, the more wonderful and the more welcome is the deliverance. Now know I that thou fearest God - God knew it before, but now Abraham had given a memorable evidence of it. He need do no more, what he had done was sufficient to prove the religious regard he had to God and his authority. The best evidence of our fearing God is our being willing to honour him with that which is dearest to us, and to part with all to him, or for him.

God said, "Now I know," meaning He did not know beforehand.

 The question of the omniscience of God is much understood. The Bible manes many simple statements that limits God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these many passages if we do not believe them literally. There also is no meaning to them if we make or take the figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were UNTRUE.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of man as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18: 21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 21:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11;1; 12:1; Zech.1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail conserning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

 

 God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19). God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

God send his messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18: 21-22; Dan. 13:21; 11:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2-2; Rev. 1;1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1-14; 6:20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).
 
There is not one statement in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's eternal plan for man is known from beginning to end and what God plans to bring to past He has the power to do, but concerning the free will actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestinated blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestinated punishments according to His plan.

It is His plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

 
 

Edited January 19, 2019 by HAZARD

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

God said, "Now I know," meaning He did not know beforehand.

 The question of the omniscience of God is much understood. The Bible manes many simple statements that limits God's knowledge. There would be no sense to these many passages if we do not believe them literally. There also is no meaning to them if we make or take the figuratively. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were UNTRUE.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of man as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18: 21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 21:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all that they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11;1; 12:1; Zech.1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in almost infinite detail conserning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

 

 God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Several times, God Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God said that He did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that man would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4:1-12), or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19). God says He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS DEEP THINGS (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reigns of men so that HE MAY KNOW THEM (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron. 28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23).

God send his messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in Gen. 18: 21-22; Dan. 13:21; 11:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2-2; Rev. 1;1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1-14; 6:20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).
 
There is not one statement in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's eternal plan for man is known from beginning to end and what God plans to bring to past He has the power to do, but concerning the free will actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestinated blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestinated punishments according to His plan.

It is His plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22;17).

 
 

Hi Hazard,

Psalm 139 contradicts this. 

O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
² You know ^[a]when I sit down and ^[b]when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
³ You ^[c]scrutinize my ^[d]path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
^4 [e]Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

I believe the Lord is merciful to those who commit suicide. They are not stable mentally. 

"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you.... Deut 4:31

[HAZARD]

4 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Hazard,

Psalm 139 contradicts this. 

O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
² You know ^[a]when I sit down and ^[b]when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.
³ You ^[c]scrutinize my ^[d]path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
^4 [e]Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

I believe the Lord is merciful to those who commit suicide. They are not stable mentally. 

"For the LORD your God is a compassionate God; He will not fail you nor destroy you.... Deut 4:31

King Saul and Judas were not mentally ill?

A lovely psalm. I have given dozens of Scriptures showing God does not know all the thoughts of free moral agents until they act and carry them out. Are there any Scriptures which teach that God knows the thoughts of men before the person has thoughts to know? Nothing is ever said of God knowing all persons and all their thoughts in all the dateless past, billions of years before such persons came into existence.

[deartheopolis]

Are you really saying that God does not know the end from the beginning?  So He is not omnipotent?  God is amazing and He knows all.  No matter how much scripture you use to try to convince otherwise, God knows how many days we have on Earth.  There is nothing we can do to change what He knows.  Jude 1:3,4

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He known, elected, chosen, or predestinated all the acts and events from all eternity past.

Theology 101: If he doesn't know everything he isn't God. As stated elsewhere on Worthy, God's knowing everything doesn't mean He directly causes everything. Adding to that, His knowing everything doesn't exclude acts of volition (freewill) and laws of nature (predetermination) from coexisting, or from being subject to divine intervention . See Scriptures below that refute any naysaying.  

Mat 10:28-31
(28)  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(29)  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
(30)  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
(31)  Fear you not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows.
1Jn 3:20
(20)  For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
Psa 139:4
(4)  For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, you know it altogether.
Psa 147:4-5
(4)  He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.
(5)  Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
1Ch 28:9
(9)  And you, Solomon my son, know you the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searchs all hearts, and understands all the imaginations of the thoughts: if you seek him, he will be found of you; but if you forsake him, he will cast you off for ever.
Heb 4:12-13
(12)  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(13)  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

[R. Hartono]

GOD DOESN'T ACCEPT SUICIDE IN SPITE OF HUMAN WEAKNESS, HE STILL HAS PLAN, LOOK AT THESE EXAMPLES :

Like so many other great leaders, Elijah requested that he be allowed to die rather than go on as he had been.

When his burden had seemed too great to carry, Moses had also asked God to take his life. (cf Num. 11:11-15).

Likewise, Jonah preferred to die rather than watch the Ninevites repent and be spared by God (cf Jonah 4:3).

Jeremiah cursed the day of his birth (cf Jer. 20:14-18), as did Job (cf Job 3:1-16).

These were all great men of God, yet even at their greatest, they were still men.

James 5:17 tells us that Elijah possessed the human nature, with its problems, into account (one that is subject to the same emotions) as we have.

These examples should be a reminder for us not to place any preacher or Christian worker on a pedestal.

If we do, we should always make sure we look at their feet-not their face.

When we do we will find that they also have feet of clay.

Every man at his best is still a man, and they will fail.

Some of the greatest people in the Bible failed in their strongest points :

http://www.brandonweb.com/sermons/sermonpages/12kings5.htm

Edited January 19, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Guest]

Thankyou so much all. 

The way i answer my atheist friend's question is vital. It is either a step towards Christ or confirms her disbelief. She is a good rational compassionate person. She is right. If we say our God stands for love and mercy, how could He punish an unhappy soul that could not take the pain of this world a moment longer. 

My first husband committed suicide. I know the impact on everyone who loved him. Therefore i now believe we should have love and comfort in our hearts for anyone even contemplating such a final act. 

This life is precious. Given by our creator. No matter what happens, let us treasure each moment. God loves us, that is what keeps me going and spreading his message. 

I so want my atheist friend to come to know Christ. But i must give a balanced view to her. Whenever anyone asks us a question we have an opportunity to bring them a step closer to knowing Christ. 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

18 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

Ah i would never quote scripture at anyone. I myself would like to read the relevant bible verses, understand them then tell her about them. I first need to know what our Lord God tells us. I never spout scripture at anyone.  

This is just a general reminder .    Since when does speaking scripture to anyone not appeal to this generation .

I mean folks act as though speaking scriptures to the lost is the same as cursing .    Yet how often did JESUS speak  SOUND DOCTRINE to all that had breath .

Every word He spoke , IS SOUND DOCTRINE and we should use His words in all cases .

But instead preachers who don't know HIM at all,   have for years taught us this wrong approach which Aint working .

Their reasoning was of men , for they said these people don't want to hear scripture .  

Truth is most don't .   But since when we do change the pure way of evangelizing with sound doctrine , to suit the ears of men who desire no truth .

To them it will be an offense .   And we cannot pander How we evangelize to their ears in hopes we can win them.  You wont .  at most you get only worse fish

and they teach even worse ways and soon , AS IN RIGHT NOW ,  it gets so bad that we even got churches saying ,   HEY don't say JESUS is the SON of GOD , because that OFFENDS .

Things just keep getting worse . And seeker friendly was a recipe for total destruction from its birth .   Let the SPIRIT lead and it will give you words .   Worry not about what to say

or not say .   SIMPLY follow CHRIST .

[JohnD]

It's murder.

Murder is the taking of that which you did not give life to in the first place. 

Can God forgive murder? He forgave Moses.

What happens to the soul in a suicide situation?

A saved soul is saved. A condemned soul is condemned.

The biblical distinction between both in all cases is whether or not one believes in Jesus Christ.

That being said... we are poor judges of just about... well, everything.

And whatever you or someone else is going through believing they can't endure it another moment...

think back to the last time you felt that way and (obviously) did not take your own life.

The odds are this current hell will pass the same way the last one did and suicide is a permanent

fix to a temporary problem / or new way of life that you loathe but can get used to eventually.

Before jumping or whatever BE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you believe in the one true / authentic / actual Lord Jesus Christ.

Otherwise you will go to hell in death of any kind.