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Why Pretrib Logic Fails

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2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

And yet Corrie Ten Boom will miss this future Tribulation during the 70th Week.  As will all believers.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

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On 1/29/2019 at 7:48 PM, Cletus said:

Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

That's a really tough passage to swallow for some, but it's hard to deny black and white.  Not only are there saints present for satan to "make  war" against, but somehow God's love and ultimate plan allows for them to be overcome. 

I asked Him how to  reconcile that passage with  the fact He is love and He  has answered me.  It's an AMAZING revelation and part of (only part) is found in Amos 3 (particularly verse 7)  and Psalm 149.  My  WHOLE understanding of the tribulation, the wrath and our role in all of it was completely transformed when He integrated those parts of the  Word into my big picture.  It's removed any  trace of fear of the tribulation and replaced it with an eagerness to get on with  it!  :)

Even so Lord Jesus, come quickly!  Hallelujah!

I wouldn't miss this for ownership  of the world  :)

Edited by Jostler
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20 hours ago, Jostler said:

That's a really tough passage to swallow for some, but it's hard to deny black and white.  Not only are there saints present for satan to "make  war" against, but somehow God's love and ultimate plan allows for them to be overcome. 

I asked Him how to  reconcile that passage with  the fact He is love and He  has answered me.  It's an AMAZING revelation and part of (only part) is found in Amos 8 and Psalm 149.  My  WHOLE understanding of the tribulation, the wrath and our role in all of it was completely transformed when He integrated those parts of the  Word into my big picture.  It's removed any  trace of fear of the tribulation and replaced it with an eagerness to get on with  it!  :)

Even so Lord Jesus, come quickly!  Hallelujah!

I wouldn't miss this for ownership  of the world  :)

Who told you this ? Are you sure you are correct here or are you assuming things that don't really jibe brother. I took care of the OP and he answerd nary a word of course.

As per the Saints will be overcome by Satan, do you know who that is referencing ? Here you go.

Dan. 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen (Jesus), which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The Jews are THE SAINTS that will be Conquered by the Little Horn/Anti-Christ at the 1260 for 1260 days and that will end when Jesus Returns. 

So THE SAINTS are not the Christian Church per se, which will be in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, it will be the 2/3 Jews who don't Repent who are overcome, the 1/3 who do Repent Flee Judea, thus they are overcome in that them must live in the Mountains for 3.5 years.

The remnant Church (those Gentiles that Repent after the Rapture) are also overcome, in that they are the Martyrs under the 5th Seal. 

 

So what happens when we go by singular passages without putting them in their proper "CONTEXT" is we get confusion. Yes, there are Saints on earth during the 70th Week/Tribulation period, but it is not the Church/Bride of Christ. Now the passage makes perfect sense in that yes the Church has been Raptured, AND the Saints are overcome. 

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23 hours ago, Cletus said:

Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If one has the Holy spirit in them, Satan cannot overcome them.  Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.  Now there maybe future saints without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who may be overcome by Satan.  Satan has been making war with the Church for 2000 years, why now are they being overcome.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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37 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

If one has the Holy spirit in them, Satan cannot overcome them.  Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.  Now there maybe future saints without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who may be overcome by Satan.  Satan has been making war with the Church for 2000 years, why now are they being overcome.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Have you ever read Foxes' Book of Martyrs?  How about the 100 million or so killed by inquisitions in the  middle ages?  Church history is  full of examples of spirit  filled believers choosing death over denial of their Saviour.  And many died singing  praises to God even as the lions were ripping them limb from limb in the  Collosseum.  One was cracking  jokes as he was slow-roasted on a big iron plate over a slow fire.  How can you be a saint at all without the  indwelling  Spirit?   He's the agent, the power  of the new birth and I see nowhere in scripture you can become a part of God's family apart from the new birth.  Saying or implying there is some way to reconciliation with  God apart from the blood and new birth is just an astonishing position  to take in my mind.   If there were some  big shift in how men are translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of "His dear son..." I would fully expect the Bible to speak to it in great detail.   My goodness there is  no topic of greater importance to any man than that!

I'm not aware of ANY allusion, hint or intimation of  that anywhere in the  Bible, much less a detailed explanation.  Are you?  If you are please show me.  That would certainly be a significant revelation.

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45 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

If one has the Holy spirit in them, Satan cannot overcome them.  Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.  Now there maybe future saints without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who may be overcome by Satan.  Satan has been making war with the Church for 2000 years, why now are they being overcome.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

No where in the bible does it say that when you have The Holy Ghost you are invincible.  resisting the devil and it flees is talking about when you are tempted... not persecuted.  apples and oranges. 

John 15:20  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. ...  Did Jesus lie? 

 

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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Who told you this ? Are you sure you are correct here or are you assuming things that don't really jibe brother. I took care of the OP and he answerd nary a word of course.

I thought  I stuck pretty close to what the text actually says.  Let me look at that again.

Quote
Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If anyone has an ear, let him hear.  He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

Looking at the Word itself, I AM assuming the word "saint" is used to mean exactly what it means in every other place it's used in the NT.  Born-again, by the power of the Holy Spirit who then indwells the believer.  As far as assumptions go that seems a very safe one to me.   The power to overcome these saints is GRANTED.  Who can grant such power but Father?  We need an understanding of how our Father who is love could grant such a writ of authority  to the beast (and  i assert that such an explanation DOES exist and makes perfect sense).   Every tribe, tongue and nation is mentioned  so we're not just hearing  about the 144,000 or Israelites or Jews exclusively.  And then I'd have to ask why those whose names are written in the  Lamb's Book  of Life as an exception (the only ones who DO NOT worship the beast) unless there are some present to reject that demand for worship.

It seems to speak pretty  clearly and what you are identifying as my "assumptions" still seem very well grounded in the Word as far as I can see.

Lets look at your next assertion by actually reviewing Dan 12.

Quote

As per the Saints will be overcome by Satan, do you know who that is referencing ? Here you go.

Dan. 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen (Jesus), which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 

I'm trying to make sure we don't get lost in the pile of things before us so I'm stepping through your post one bit at a time.  I highlighted in green (Jesus) because I have a question there.  Why do you say this is Jesus speaking to Daniel?  That's an 'assumption' I need some evidence for.  If I'm understanding  the context of this encounter properly (and we have to back all the way up to Chapter 10 to find where this  encounter starts) this is an angelic messenger who identifies himself in ways that don't seem to fit Jesus Himself.  We've got quite a few instances in the OT where we DO see what appears to be pre-incarnate manifestations of Jesus but I don't think this  is one of them.

Back at the  beginning of the encounter this heavenly being testifies  that he was sent (my assumption is that Father sent him) to bring a response to Daniel's petition for understanding.

And we're given a description of  this heavenly messenger.

Quote
I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz!  His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude.

 

There are some similarities in this description that coincide with a description of Jesus found in Rev 1, BUT...the  following verses seem to describe circumstances that COULDN'T fit Jesus.

The angel witnesses that he was withstood by a principality.  Actually HINDERED in his mission for three whole weeks?  I am doubtful any principality can hinder Jesus from doing anything.

Quote
And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling.

Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words.  “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.

 

I suppose these statements I will make next are debatable, but

1.  The messenger was "sent" and sent as a response to Daniel's prayer

2.  The messenger did not possess sufficient strength to "break through" the resistance of a principality by  himself.

3.  Evidently Michael is dispatched to assist him in completing his commission to deliver understanding to Daniel.  And with Michael's entrance the resistance is overcome.

If we're to interpret this  being as being Jesus Himself, then we're setting up a situation where Jesus needed Michael's help to get the job done.  Now personally i find that a fantastic assumption....unbelieveable in the extreme.

 

This is probably  enough for one post.  But   I want  to stick to looking at your post until you're satisfied I'm not just glossing it over and refusing to  address it.

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4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

If one has the Holy spirit in them, Satan cannot overcome them.  Resist the Devil and he will flee from you.  Now there maybe future saints without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who may be overcome by Satan.  Satan has been making war with the Church for 2000 years, why now are they being overcome.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I think you meant he can't overcome the Church in full right brother ? as in the Gates of hell will not prevail against the Church as Jesus promised Peter. In certain instances Christians are overcome and killed, but that is a part of us overcoming the world. They are taking you literal, when Christians are killed for Jesus we thus overcome the world. Many verses say we are overcomers.

Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Rev. 3:21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

1 John 5:4-5  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

So we can be overcome as per our Physical bodies, as I am sure you are aware of, but we are the TRUE OVERCOMERS via the Blood of Christ and Satan nor any of his evil henchmen can do anything about it. Amen !! Glory to God !! 

But in this instance the Saints will be killed or OVERCOME PHYSICALLY, but in essence by dying they overcome Spiritually if they have Christ in their hearts. So its a two fold type answer in essence, we overcome by laying down our life, whenever that may be, but I shall not be here during the Tribulation period. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I think you meant he can't overcome the Church in full right brother ? as in the Gates of hell will not prevail against the Church as Jesus promised Peter. In certain instances Christians are overcome and killed, but that is a part of us overcoming the world. They are taking you literal, when Christians are killed for Jesus we thus overcome the world. Many verses say we are overcomers.

Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Rev. 3:21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

1 John 5:4-5  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

So we can be overcome as per our Physical bodies, as I am sure you are aware of, but we are the TRUE OVERCOMERS via the Blood of Christ and Satan nor any of his evil henchmen can do anything about it. Amen !! Glory to God !! 

But in this instance the Saints will be killed or OVERCOME PHYSICALLY, but in essence by dying they overcome Spiritually if they have Christ in their hearts. So its a two fold type answer in essence, we overcome by laying down our life, whenever that may be, but I shall not be here during the Tribulation period. 

 

 

Yes the same can be said for those who Nero burned on crosses to light the roads to Rome.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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12 hours ago, Jostler said:

I thought  I stuck pretty close to what the text actually says.  Let me look at that again.

Quote

Well one can do that, if he doesn't understand the structure if the verses in context then he doesn't understand the passage at all. Read Rev 17:6 and the exact same writer (John) distinguishes between the Martyrs of Christ and the Saints !!

Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So in reality John is speaking about the Jews when he references Saints and about the Gentile Christian when he mentions Martyrs, though both are in essence Saints, John is seemingly trying to purposefully distinguish between the two. Now looking back at Daniel 12 again, we see the Prophecy is about the Jews in the last days and Michael is going to stand up and help them at that time. After the Rapture people will repent and come to the Lord, that in itself defeats the argument you made. There will be Christians and repented Jews (1/3 repent and flee Judea), so why would that passage stop the pre tribulation Rapture ? Answer, it wouldn't.

12 hours ago, Jostler said:

Looking at the Word itself, I AM assuming the word "saint" is used to mean exactly what it means in every other place it's used in the NT.  Born-again, by the power of the Holy Spirit who then indwells the believer.  As far as assumptions go that seems a very safe one to me.   The power to overcome these saints is GRANTED.  Who can grant such power but Father?  We need an understanding of how our Father who is love could grant such a writ of authority  to the beast (and  i assert that such an explanation DOES exist and makes perfect sense).   Every tribe, tongue and nation is mentioned  so we're not just hearing  about the 144,000 or Israelites or Jews exclusively.  And then I'd have to ask why those whose names are written in the  Lamb's Book  of Life as an exception (the only ones who DO NOT worship the beast) unless there are some present to reject that demand for worship.

It seems to speak pretty  clearly and what you are identifying as my "assumptions" still seem very well grounded in the Word as far as I can see.

Lets look at your next assertion by actually reviewing Dan 12.

The Church can not be overcome in full, we are the RESTRAINING POWER in 2 Thess 2, via the Holy Spirit power in us. Once we are removed, the Beast  or Anti-Christ/Little Horn is allowed to go forth Conquering and thus overcoming. As I stated above, this argument you make s dead in the water, after the Rapture the Jews repent and the REMNANT CHURCH Repents. We are in Heaven, Rev. chapters 4 and 5 prove this. This eventually become redundant.

12 hours ago, Jostler said:

I'm trying to make sure we don't get lost in the pile of things before us so I'm stepping through your post one bit at a time.  I highlighted in green (Jesus) because I have a question there.  Why do you say this is Jesus speaking to Daniel?  That's an 'assumption' I need some evidence for.  If I'm understanding  the context of this encounter properly (and we have to back all the way up to Chapter 10 to find where this  encounter starts) this is an angelic messenger who identifies himself in ways that don't seem to fit Jesus Himself.  We've got quite a few instances in the OT where we DO see what appears to be pre-incarnate manifestations of Jesus but I don't think this  is one of them.

 

Of course this is one of those instances my brother. In chapter 10 Daniel calls this "Man in Linen" Lord four times and describes him like this:

Dan. 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain (1)man clothed in linen, whose (2)loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and (3)his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and (4)his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the (5)voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

 Rev. 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, (1)clothed with a garment down to the foot, and (2)girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his (3)eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And (4)his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace;  and (5)his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And (6)when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, (7)saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

In Daniel 10:8-10 Daniel has fallen on his face into a deep sleep, really a tance of fear so to speak, then he was touched and lifted up and we get this.

Daniel 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and (6)stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. 12 Then (7)said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel:

So taking all this into account, I think you will now agree with me that this Man in Linen is Jesus Christ !! Then in Daniel 12 we get this:

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

I think we have established this a Jesus Christ here brother. And the prince of Persia who resisted him in Dan. 10 was Apollyon. 

13 hours ago, Jostler said:

There are some similarities in this description that coincide with a description of Jesus found in Rev 1, BUT...the  following verses seem to describe circumstances that COULDN'T fit Jesus.

The angel witnesses that he was withstood by a principality.  Actually HINDERED in his mission for three whole weeks?  I am doubtful any principality can hinder Jesus from doing anything.

Of course, thy are dealing with men, if Apollyon had of relented (remember, Satan still has the title deed to the earth and mankind) then the next Beast would have just been Greece sooner. He did not want to entice Alexander the Great to Conquer Persia as God ordered, so Jesus and Michael had to entice Alexander the Great to make Greece the new Beast by Conquering Persia. There is a reason it's called Spiritual battles. We are in one every day.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.  

God wants us all to serve him, but Satan kills, steals and destroys AND LIES !! Jesus has to battle by influencing human kind. He doesn't treat us as slaves or a computer program brother.

13 hours ago, Jostler said:

I suppose these statements I will make next are debatable, but

1.  The messenger was "sent" and sent as a response to Daniel's prayer

2.  The messenger did not possess sufficient strength to "break through" the resistance of a principality by  himself.

3.  Evidently Michael is dispatched to assist him in completing his commission to deliver understanding to Daniel.  And with Michael's entrance the resistance is overcome.

If we're to interpret this  being as being Jesus Himself, then we're setting up a situation where Jesus needed Michael's help to get the job done.  Now personally i find that a fantastic assumption....unbelieveable in the extreme.

 

This is probably  enough for one post.  But   I want  to stick to looking at your post until you're satisfied I'm not just glossing it over and refusing to  address it.

That portion was a minor point of my post to be honest. But it is Jesus IMHO. You don't take into account how many Souls Satan wins to hell every day. It is not a fait accompli, Jesus has to persuade mankind via the Holy Spirit to follow him or his will. Of course he is greater than Satan, but people have their own will, Jesus does not violate this, else we would not be responsible for our own actions. So Jesus and Michael hot involved, and WHAT HAPPENED?

Alexander the Great Conquered more land mass faster than anyone in history I would think, so much so he was deemed the Leopard Kingdom. 

 

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