Rapture means the wise virgins taken to the feast alive, tribulation means foolish virgins left and yell.

[iamlamad]

On 3/17/2019 at 6:22 PM, Spock said:

So what is your interpretation or meaning of the phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth.?” When Jesus says that, what does he mean? Be specific please. 

Why do we need to "interpret?" It is clear what it means. We might call it grating of teeth. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/12/2019 at 12:36 PM, Last Daze said:

Not exactly an accurate statement.

• But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’  Matthew 25:12

He doesn't say that He never knew them, only that He did not know them at that point in time.  The foolish virgins brought lamps with oil, just not any extra for the long haul.

Last trumpet on the last day.  Endurance.  Perseverance.  Extra oil.  The message is clear.

Good point.

[iamlamad]

On 3/12/2019 at 5:31 AM, R. Hartono said:

Those died in church age will be resurrected and raptured with the living saints (the great multitude)

1 Cor 15:52 : In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.

Those died in tribulation (foolish virgins) shall appear below the altar (5th seal).

 

No, you are mistaken. The timing of the 5th seal is as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. Or shortly thereafter when the first martyr was slain. They are church age martyrs. Remember, John does not even get to the 70th week until the 7th seal and does not get to the days of GT until after chapter 14.

[R. Hartono]

On 3/19/2019 at 6:46 AM, iamlamad said:

No, you are mistaken. The timing of the 5th seal is as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. Or shortly thereafter when the first martyr was slain. They are church age martyrs. Remember, John does not even get to the 70th week until the 7th seal and does not get to the days of GT until after chapter 14.

The first martyr and all martyrs in the Church Age shall be raised be4 the great tribulation and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

John saw them as the Great Multitude of Rev 7

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE (not under the Altar), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

But other than the great multitude in heaven John also saw the souls under the altar that must wait for their brethren, these souls under the altar are not part of the great multitude STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

On 3/18/2019 at 7:46 PM, iamlamad said:

No, you are mistaken. The timing of the 5th seal is as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. Or shortly thereafter when the first martyr was slain. They are church age martyrs. Remember, John does not even get to the 70th week until the 7th seal and does not get to the days of GT until after chapter 14.

The 5th seal martyrs are said to be very impatient - so how is it that it occurs when there is only ONE person (soul) - Stephen. The implication is that there are MANY and that they have been WAITING for a very long time.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. ¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ¹¹ Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Maybe you will at least push the date forward til maybe 60ad or the end of the first century? Personally, I think it best fits right before the rapture. 

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

16 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The first martyr and all martyrs in the Church Age shall be raised be4 the great tribulation and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

John saw them as the Great Multitude of Rev 7

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE (not under the Altar), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

But other than the great multitude in heaven John also saw the souls under the altar that must wait for their brethren, these souls under the altar are not part of the great multitude STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

Rev 7 comes as an "interlude" of sorts BETWEEN the 6th and 7th seals. This indicates that the 5th seal occurs BEFORE all of these. BEFORE the great multitude in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal, BEFORE the marking of the 144K. 

[iamlamad]

Just now, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The 5th seal martyrs are said to be very impatient - so how is it that it occurs when there is only ONE person (soul) - Stephen. The implication is that there are MANY and that they have been WAITING for a very long time.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. ¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ¹¹ Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Maybe you will at least push the date forward til maybe 60ad or the end of the first century? Personally, I think it best fits right before the rapture. 

I don't see any hint as to how long they have been there, but rather that they have no idea how long they WILL be there. It seems they have no idea. I don't mind if you say 20 or 40 years into the church age. I think the important thing is, they must wait until the rapture for the final martyr. You make a good point here. Remember, John was seeing this vision in 95 AD. By that them where were very many martyrs. Maybe John saw the 5th seal in real time - 95 AD.  The 5th seal is still the first seal with any hint of a time of waiting.

[iamlamad]

Just now, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Rev 7 comes as an "interlude" of sorts BETWEEN the 6th and 7th seals. This indicates that the 5th seal occurs BEFORE all of these. BEFORE the great multitude in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal, BEFORE the marking of the 144K. 

Right!

[DonkeySpeaksAgain]

וְעַד־כָּלָה֙

How can this be translated?

Can it be Committee - bride?

[OldCoot]

On 1/30/2019 at 11:13 PM, R. Hartono said:

THE WISE VIRGINS ARE TAKEN ALIVE TO THE FEAST

Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

THE FOOLISH VIRGINS WILL BE LEFT AND BEG BUT THE TRAIN HAS DEPARTED.

¹¹ “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

¹² “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

THOSE MARTYRS IN THE TRIBULATION CANNOT BE THE WISE VIRGINS ALREADY RAPTURED ALIVE :

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Those died in church age will be resurrected and raptured with the living saints (the great multitude)

1 Cor 15:52 : In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.

Those died in tribulation (foolish virgins) shall appear below the altar (5th seal).

One problem with applying the Virgins of Matthew 25 to those of the "church" or redeemed.  If they are the believers, then we got a down grade.  The redeemed are the Bride of Messiah. The virgins are the bridesmaids.  They are waiting for the Messiah and Bride to return from the seven days of the Chupah, or wedding chamber, which is when the wedding feast begins.  A simple study of the 1st Century traditional Hebrew marriage clears this stuff up.  I recommend you check out books by a Hebrew believer, Alfred Edersheim.... "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" and "Sketches of Jewish Social Life".

The Bride (redeemed) has already been removed to join the Groom (Messiah) together in the Chupah (wedding chamber) at the beginning of the tribulation period.  They consumate the marriage during that time and become one.  The word is put out that the groom and the bride will return and the wedding feast will begin.  The guests come to be ready for the Groom's return.  The story of the Virgins is those of the Hebrew people that go thru the Tribulation Period.  At the end some will have turned to Yeshua and be ready for Yeshua's return and some will not have turned to Yeshua and be cast out because He doesn't know them.  It has a illusion to Ezekiel 20.

Ezekiel 20:37-38  “I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

The Matthew 25 virgins account, both those who were wise and those who were foolish, is at the end of the tribulation period.

This idea that the virgins are the redeemed, some ready and some not, degrades Yeshua's atonement.  A person is either justified (redeemed) thru Messiah or not, and confuses Justification with Sanctification. There is no partial justification, and likewise, no partial rapture.  To put the redeemed as the virgins suggests some sort of protestant purgatory is going on and that being redeemed is a works righteousness gig.

Edited April 13, 2019 by OldCoot