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R. Hartono

Rapture means the wise virgins taken to the feast alive, tribulation means foolish virgins left and yell.

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On 3/17/2019 at 1:33 PM, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The "Sea of Glass" - What is it? 

Many speak of different 'levels' of heaven, and without going into all that, the LOWEST level is earth itself. Seeing it that way, this sea of glass is first described as being "clear as crystal", then it is described as being "like fire". I can only conclude this means the "fire" refers to the tribulation period OR the time of the bowl judgments AFTER the 2nd coming. Of course, people will force it into whatever fits their outline, but it does not make much sense that the sea of glass would NOT be as if on fire DURING THE TRIBULATION.

There are some who have been to the throne room and told about this "sea of Glass." I remember one who said it was made of sapphire, blue in color. She or he, I don't remember, "bit the dust" so to speak, in front of the throne, and got a good, close up look!  Perhaps the fire was a reflection of the glory from the throne. 

Exo. 24  Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very[heavens in its clarity. 

When I read fire, I think fire. 

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On 3/17/2019 at 6:22 PM, Spock said:

So what is your interpretation or meaning of the phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth.?” When Jesus says that, what does he mean? Be specific please. 

Why do we need to "interpret?" It is clear what it means. We might call it grating of teeth. 

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On 3/12/2019 at 12:36 PM, Last Daze said:

Not exactly an accurate statement.

  • But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’  Matthew 25:12

He doesn't say that He never knew them, only that He did not know them at that point in time.  The foolish virgins brought lamps with oil, just not any extra for the long haul.

Last trumpet on the last day.  Endurance.  Perseverance.  Extra oil.  The message is clear.

Good point.

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On 3/12/2019 at 5:31 AM, R. Hartono said:

Those died in church age will be resurrected and raptured with the living saints (the great multitude)

1 Cor 15:52 : In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we will be changed.

Those died in tribulation (foolish virgins) shall appear below the altar (5th seal).

 

No, you are mistaken. The timing of the 5th seal is as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. Or shortly thereafter when the first martyr was slain. They are church age martyrs. Remember, John does not even get to the 70th week until the 7th seal and does not get to the days of GT until after chapter 14.

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On 3/19/2019 at 6:46 AM, iamlamad said:

No, you are mistaken. The timing of the 5th seal is as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. Or shortly thereafter when the first martyr was slain. They are church age martyrs. Remember, John does not even get to the 70th week until the 7th seal and does not get to the days of GT until after chapter 14.

The first martyr and all martyrs in the Church Age shall be raised be4 the great tribulation and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

John saw them as the Great Multitude of Rev 7

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE (not under the Altar), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

But other than the great multitude in heaven John also saw the souls under the altar that must wait for their brethren, these souls under the altar are not part of the great multitude STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

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On 3/18/2019 at 7:46 PM, iamlamad said:

No, you are mistaken. The timing of the 5th seal is as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. Or shortly thereafter when the first martyr was slain. They are church age martyrs. Remember, John does not even get to the 70th week until the 7th seal and does not get to the days of GT until after chapter 14.

The 5th seal martyrs are said to be very impatient - so how is it that it occurs when there is only ONE person (soul) - Stephen. The implication is that there are MANY and that they have been WAITING for a very long time.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Maybe you will at least push the date forward til maybe 60ad or the end of the first century? Personally, I think it best fits right before the rapture. 

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16 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The first martyr and all martyrs in the Church Age shall be raised be4 the great tribulation and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

John saw them as the Great Multitude of Rev 7

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE (not under the Altar), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

But other than the great multitude in heaven John also saw the souls under the altar that must wait for their brethren, these souls under the altar are not part of the great multitude STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

Rev 7 comes as an "interlude" of sorts BETWEEN the 6th and 7th seals. This indicates that the 5th seal occurs BEFORE all of these. BEFORE the great multitude in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal, BEFORE the marking of the 144K. 

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Just now, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

The 5th seal martyrs are said to be very impatient - so how is it that it occurs when there is only ONE person (soul) - Stephen. The implication is that there are MANY and that they have been WAITING for a very long time.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Maybe you will at least push the date forward til maybe 60ad or the end of the first century? Personally, I think it best fits right before the rapture. 

I don't see any hint as to how long they have been there, but rather that they have no idea how long they WILL be there. It seems they have no idea. I don't mind if you say 20 or 40 years into the church age. I think the important thing is, they must wait until the rapture for the final martyr. You make a good point here. Remember, John was seeing this vision in 95 AD. By that them where were very many martyrs. Maybe John saw the 5th seal in real time - 95 AD.  The 5th seal is still the first seal with any hint of a time of waiting.

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Just now, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

Rev 7 comes as an "interlude" of sorts BETWEEN the 6th and 7th seals. This indicates that the 5th seal occurs BEFORE all of these. BEFORE the great multitude in heaven, BEFORE the 7th seal, BEFORE the marking of the 144K. 

Right!

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Jesus made 2 principal statements in regards to the actual return of himself for the church.   They are: 

1. Watch,  and

2. Be ready ALSO. 

In regards to watching,  Jesus said,  "for you know not the hour (or the day)".  

In regards to being ready,  Jesus said,  "for the son of man comes at an hour that you think not".  These two corolarries to watching and being ready are not just a writer's preference of word but are uniquely associated to each exhortation. 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:42 KJV    Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:44 KJV    Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 25:13 KJV    Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mar 13:33 KJV    Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:35 KJV    Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Luk 12:40 KJV    Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Jesus's precaution against not watching concerns the actual time of his return... him coming when you are not watching.   All of the circumstances that will surround his actual return have not been revealed.   But many signs of his return have been revealed.   Recognizing those signs are important to being found watching when he actually does return.   

The need to be ready applies to the time when there are no more signs to be fulfilled and his return is truly imminent.   This attitude is exemplified in the theology of pre-trib, in the doctrine of imminency.   But the need to watch is a disregarded aspect of their theology.   The result is an insufficient preparedness, essentially they are not watching,  and this is the moral of the parable of the 10 virgins. 

So what is it that constituted them (in the parable)  to not be watching.   We have 10 virgins waiting,  10 lamps, each with some measure of oil.   They all fell asleep.  They were all still there at midnight.   They all heard the midnight cry.   During the daylight hours,  they were all ready.  Five virgins were called wise because they were "more ready" for the bridegroom to come.   But the moral was to watch.   How is it that the foolish were less ready AND guilty of not watching?   Were they all not watching until they feel asleep?   Yes they were.   But the greater readiness of the wise was a reflection of their expectations surrounding the return of the bridegroom.   But even they feel asleep.   But this shows that even their expectations of his return fell short of actual reality.   This equates to Jesus's words that no man knows the day or the hour.   ALL of our expectations for his return will fall short of the actual conditions and events surrounding his return.   But there will come a time when everything prophesied about the days BEFORE his return have been fulfilled.   This is essentially what is written in the first 31 verses of Matt 24.  You probably disagree with what constitutes the prophesied events taking place prior to his actual return,  but this is what constitutes watching for the signs of his return.  It is at this juncture that we can begin to understand the exhortation to "be ye also ready".  Getting back to the parable of the virgins,  we should be able to understand WHY the foolish virgins were "not watching".  Midnight came,  the loud cry came forth,  and the foolish determined that they were not "sufficiently" ready.   They began their watching with oil in their lamps,  but found themselves wanting when they heard the cry come forth AT MIDNIGHT.   They left off watching,  to pursue getting more oil for themselves.   Their deficient attitude of watchfulmess was not found out until after midnight.   They were insufficiently ready BECAUSE they were insufficiently watching.   It was a cause and effect atmosphere.   Readiness is conditionally dependent on watching.   The good news is that they were all somewhat ready... They are all called virgins.   The bad news is that not all who are ready will be ready when the bridegroom actually does come for the church.   Some virgins will be left behind. 

So what becomes of those left behind?  They do find enough oil,  WHILE THEY ARE GONE AND THE BRIDEGROOM COMES,  but it was after thee bridegroom came.   Do the scriptures have anything to say about this?   The answer is yes,  and it comes when we examine the words of Jesus concerning the need to be ready.   Let's not forget that the conditional state of readiness depends on watchfullness.   We see these words.   

*[[Luk 12:40]] KJV* Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

The actual return of Jesus will involve the time when you are not watching AND not fully ready for his return.   The foolish virgins left off (stopped) watching because they were not fully ready.   He came when they stopped expecting him to come.   But let me reemphasize.   They eventually became ready,  but not in time to meet the coming of the bridegroom.   Lets look at some relevant scripture. 

Verse list:    
Luk 12:35-40 KJV    Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for THEIR LORD, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him IMMEDIATELY. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

This passage ends with the same scripture found in Matt 24:43-44 about the Goodman of the house and the need to be ready ALSO.   Notice the word to be ready immediately when their Lord comes.  And notice also the exhortation to be ready in the 2nd or 3rd watches.   And finally notice that it says,  "their Lord".  We find Matthew referring back to this idea.   I don't think that the idea of a 2nd & 3rd watch implies a 2nd or even a third rapture.  But I do think that it refers to the ideas of a 2nd & 3rd chance to meet up with their Lord.   But it will come at a high price.   Jesus said that those servants are also among the blessed.   

What happens to the foolish virgins?  They revert to (in leaving) getting themselves ready for the bridegroom.   Essentially their focus shifts from the primary Christian motivation of serving others to that of serving their personal need and this is what Jesus says to that in Luke 12:35ff and here: 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:45-51 KJV    Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, MY LORD delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Twice,  he refers in that passage that Jesus is still "my Lord" and "Lord of that servant".  Let it be clear that we are talking about servants/ virgins that are insufficiently ready at the time of the actual return of the Lord.   Because of the lack of readiness on their part,  when the Lord came back,  they left off the the ministering love for others and became self centered,  focusing on their own need.   What will be the requirement for them to enter in the 2nd or 3rd watches?   I think it will be no less than dying a martyrs death,  most likely during the days of the mark of the beast.  To me this brings a deeper meaning to "weeping & gnashing" of teeth.   

Blessings

The PuP 

 

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