Jump to content
Spock

Mid Trib rapture anyone?

Recommended Posts

On 2/20/2019 at 3:18 PM, Revelation Man said:

I just did a study on the DOTL and it seems to not only be God's Wrath but his 1000 year reign also, thus when Peter speaks about the Heavens passing away in the DOTL, it now all makes perfect sense. The DOTL, also incorporates the 1000 year reign, thus after the 1000 years come the New Heaven and Earth !!

Spock: I don’t have any problems with this line of thinking even though I am not convinced about adding the 1000 yrs. 

Well of course the Judgments fall on the Gentiles {Babylon = the Whole World}, but it is designed to get Israel to REPENT from God's perspective, they are His bride !! The REMNANT Church will be here, those Gentiles who came to Christ after the Rapture. The Remnant Church who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God in Rev. 12:17 is the newly converted Gentile Church, it can't be the converted Jews, God PROTECTS THEM in Petra/Bozrah. The Dragon chased Israel but when he couldn't get at Israel he turned to those OTHERS..............The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ, which tells us the Church is in Heaven. Amen.

Spock:. Sounds good to me. I am much more convinced the church will be gone during the GREAT TRIB, which I believe is the second half of the week. I’m not convinced the church will be gone the ENTIRE first half like pre tribbers promote. We might be gone before the week begins but I just haven’t been 100% convinced yet. I still see a scenario whereby that the rapture could take place about 6 months before the mid point of the week (the AOD). 

Quote

The Apostasy in 2 Thess. 2 is not a DEPARTURE of the Faith but the DEPARTURE of the Church from earth. {The passage tells us it's about a Gathering together unto the Lord Jesus} It must come BEFORE the DOTL, as must the Anti-Christ likewise come before the DOTL. So you are correct, the Two-Witnesses show up BEFORE the DOTL, and Israel thus turns back unto God. The Heavenly Wonders come IN THE PRESENCE of the DOTL, or in the FACE of the DOTL or DURING the DOTL. 

Covenant in Hebrew means Agreement, it's only a Holy Covenant when it is with God, this will be an Agreement between NATIONS as in the E.U., Israel and THE MANY in the Mediterranean Sea Region. So you are correct, the DOTL will come when they all think they are in PEACE & SAFETY. The First Seal is opened in the Middle of the week, he is the Anti-Christ going forth.

Man, that was a lot of work...........LOL. God Bless, my 2 cents worth. 

Spock:  I’m aware some people interpret “apostasia” to mean departure, as is rapture.  I’ve read the reasoning for it too. It is impressive, but.......Again, I’m not 100% convinced of that interpretation. So, for now, I will still primarily interpret apostasia to mean  a falling away from the truth. Maybe later on.....

Interesting that you see the 1st seal opened at the midpoint, which would be right at the AOD.  The problem I had with that interpretation is that it appeared to me if I’m reading Revelation 11 right, that the two witnessses die around the midpoint and that the AC isn’t Demonically possessed until just before that time.  The 7th trumpet is released in the 11th chapter of Revelation so I am under the impression the AOD probably occurs around the 7th trumpet. If that is correct, I don’t see how the 1st seal can come after the AOD but rather the 1st BOWL instead.  I look forward to reading your rebuttal to this point I have made. Perhaps you can give me your REVELATION TIMELINE to mull over (I hope, I hope). 

 

And lastly, just to be clear,   Who do you interpret the large group of believers to be in Rev 7:9-17?  I see them as the RAPTURED Saints, and because it follows the 6th seal, I put the rapture at that point.  If you agree this is the raptured church, why dont you have them coming out after  the 6th seal rather than before the 1st seal? 

Byw, I have all read all three of your posts carefully. Thank you for taking the time to share all of that with me. I enjoyed reading every word. You have given me something to think about. I look forward to your next posts to me as well. 

Thanks and blessings,

spock

Edited by Spock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/20/2019 at 1:20 PM, Revelation Man said:

1.) They have not ridden but that's not really your main emphasis here it seems, you don't seem to understand when the Seals are opened in relation to the 70th week, and without knowing that you really can't understand what the Seals represent. The 70th week starts, the rapture in my opinion starts before the 70th week, the Church Age was inserted, the 70th week judgment was put off, God forsook Israel and gave the mantle of taking His Gospel unto the world unto the Gentiles, Romans chapter 11 says the Jews are blinded until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So it all jibes with the Church being taken to Heaven, she after all is the Bride of Christ and the Jewish Marriage Custom is to build a room for the bride in the fathers {Fathers} house. They abide in the wedding chambers for 7 days {7 years}. 

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36).

So the 70th week starts and as Daniel:27 shows us, there is a 3.5 year "Peace Agreement" {Covenant means Agreement} between the Anti-Christ, Israel and MANY [Nations] in the Region. He has to become a Beast over the whole Mediterranean Sea Region like all the other Beasts. There are 7 year Agreements in place between the E.U. and Israel and THE MANY as we speak, it's called the European Neighborhood Policy.

The European Neighborhood Policy governs the EU's relations with 16 of the its closest Eastern and Southern Neighbors. To the South: Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Palestine*, Syria** and Tunisia, and to the east......................

The European Neighbourhood Instrument

From the ENPI to the ENI

Starting from 2014, the European Neighborhood Instrument (ENI) has replaced the European Neighborhood Partnership Instrument (ENPI 2006-2013). The ENI will run until 2020 providing the framework and bulk of funding for the relations between the European Union (EU) and Partner Countries under the renewed European Neighborhood Policy (ENP).  {Notice the 7 year cycles}

So the MANY in Dan. 8:25 that are destroyed BY PEACE, and the MANY that this Anti-Christ makes an Agreement with in Dan. 9:27, are THE MANY Nations he conquers in Dan. 11:40-43. This includes Israel, but he's not able to Conquer what is now Jordan, that is where Israel will Flee for 1260 days.

Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north {Anti-Christ} shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.{Jordan} 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

So who are THE MANY that the Anti-Christ reneges on his Peace Agreement with ? Well it is Israel, all of North Africa, and the Nations around the Mediterranean Sea Region, which is why he is a Beast that comes out of the Mediterranean Sea, which means the Little Horn/Anti-Christ's FOOTPRINT will look exactly like the Old Roman Empire. It will be the E.U. and THE MANY that he Conquers, all of North Africa, Israel, Lebanon, Syria etc. 

So in th Middle of the week, the 70th week, the Seals are opened by Jesus, the Wrath of God is allowed to go forth on Mankind. So the Seals begin, of course, in the Middle of the week. Thus there is 3.5 years of God's Wrath to come, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. 

This portion needed to be very detailed, thus longer. I will answer the rest in another post. 

 

 

 

Greetings again my brother,

i just noticed you said here there was a 3.5 year peace treaty signed. Was that a typo?  Doesn’t Daniel 9:27 show a 7 year treaty to be made? 

In addition, your 7days=7 years is intriguing. I’m not sure it can be applied here but it does have some merit and does seem to fit. 

Im still trying to sort out your timeline.....seals start at midpoint.  If you have anything else for me to read to support that line of thinking, I’m always open to read. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/18/2019 at 6:25 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Great to discuss with you again. Now when I flew small planes I was taught the 1 in 60 rule. If you are off course 1degree then in 60 miles you will be off course 60 miles. And that is a long, long way off. So it is important to find that spot in our thinking that has led us off. Thus I will address the `Day of the Lord,` for this is what I see has led you into some confusion.

 

Day - Gk. `hemera,` time, a day, (24 hours) & a period of time.

 

The Apostle Peter gives the extent of the time period.

 

`But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.` (2 Peter 3: 10)

 

Thus we see the beginning of the Day of the Lord time period is when it comes as a thief, and the end will be when everything is dissolved. (at the end of the millennium)

 

`For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night, for when they say, “Peace and Safety!” then suddenly destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman.` (1 Thess. 4: 2 & 3)

 

The Apostle Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord, like a thief, comes upon the unsuspecting world, while they are saying, “Peace and Safety!” Then Paul gives more detail in his next letter, (2 Thess. 2) - the A/C revealed, the falling away, the abomination etc. Quite a few events in the Day of the Lord time period, during the trib. part.

 

The Apostle John gives the time of the specific Day of the Lord.

 

`I looked when he opened the sixth seal, there was a great earth quake and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

 

 And kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great Day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand?”` (Rev 6: 12 - 17)

 

Such cataclysmic events, before the Lord bursts out in power and great glory to deliver Israel and bring vengeance upon the rebellious nations.

 

Thus we can see that there is a specific Day of the Lord, as well as a time period called the Day of the Lord in which many events have to occur.

 

Day of the Lord time period starts when people are saying “Peace and Safety!” And then many events follow.

Day of the Lord, specific Day, is when the Lord comes in power and great glory.

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

 

Hi Marilyn,

i really can’t debate this with you because it sounds pretty logical to me. But to be honest, it matters little to me if the MK is included in the DOTL. IM more concerned about when it begins.  Your timeline makes sense but I am also open to the possibility that the DOTL might begin sometime during the first half of the week and possibly even on the day of the abomination of desolation. 

When is the 6th seal opened?  Some believe before the week, Rev Man believes all seals ar opened at the midpoint of the week, and a few are open to the possibility that it can be opened sometime within the time of Peace and Safety, during the first half of the week. I just don’t know.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/21/2019 at 10:38 AM, Mystic_Pizza said:

Everyone in here has already shown their thoughts and ideas on this, so I won't even go there, lol- truth be told, there are so many different ways things can be construed, depending on who is using what to decipher the various ways this scenario could play out- each giving compelling evidence for things to happen a certain way, at a certain time-and for the most part, each determining that the way they have explained it is 'the way' it will happen, and each person is completely sincere, and, obviously, well-studied with their findings. But everyone can't be right, lol. So, I guess the question I would ask would be...what, exactly, is important here, and why is it important? We all agree that Jesus is going to come back to earth, and the 'end will come'. The antichrist/Satan will be bound and cast into hell, and the rest of it that everyone seems to agree on. The 'question' seems to be 'when' will all of these things take place, what is the timeline, etc.-  I'm just as curious as everyone else, I would love to know just when things are supposed to happen, what will happen first, second, etc.- but I have to admit, reading about bible prophecy like this for many, many years, one thing I've discovered is that...it can cause a great deal of confusion. Is it this? Is it that? But there is 'this' verse for 'that' scenario, yet there is 'that' verse for 'this' scenario- and some will say, 'Well, yes, but you have to take that verse in conjunction with this, that, or the other because this is the way it was meant to be understood', or 'the bible does not contradict itself', which I believe, as well- and on it goes. It's disheartening, especially when everyone truly does want to understand what's going to happen, exactly, and when to expect it. Me too-

So where does that leave things?

I know some of you may think I'm somewhat of a simpleton, lol- and I come at things in a ....well, a simplistic way, and in that sense you would probably be right- but that's because at the end of the day, the one thing I know? Is....I know that I don't know, lol. I was raised to believe in a pre-trib rapture, never questioned it until I was in my 20s, probably- I won't go into detail except to say that I felt it would be more along the lines of somewhere mid-trib, pre-wrath, and that's pretty much where I sit today- I don't trust my own...knowledge, or even insight, to attempt a shot at trying to figure out where everything sits between the bowls and the trumpets, etc., insofar as when Jesus will come back- at this point in my life, I find it interesting to sort of watch what unfolds in the world, the way things are changing, what's changing, who's doing what, what the ramifications of things are, etc.- and see how it could possibly relate to end-time prophecy- The one thing that I can say about it all, and be completely, 100% sure about, is this: If Jesus comes back pre-trib, that would be awesome- none of that other, nasty business to have to worry about or go through- no 'mark', no 'antichrist', you all get what I mean- but if it's mid-trib that it happens, that is going to unhinge a lot of people who don't believe we are going to have to go through any of that- and my own opinion on that is....forewarned is forearmed- so in the end, what would be the most important thing? Being ready...having a close walk with the Lord, being dug down into the Word, instead of getting caught up in minute details about it all-that way, we're ready for whatever way it goes down. Of course, there are those men and women who were called to do exactly what those in here are doing, which is to study these things and to teach- in which case, teach on, my friends-lol. If the Lord has called you to it, well...you have to answer and say, "Here am I, Lord!"~ Myself, I'm an observer of a different type, I think- we each have the way the Lord wants us to approach things. What's important, is that we are all part of the same Body, and called to do the things that we do, some are Marys', some are Marthas', others are Peters', Pauls', Johns, but it all pulls together and is cohesive- and there we have it, lol. 

Just my two-cents. As usual, lol.

Greetings MP,

Wow.....what a GREAT POST this is. I enjoyed reading every single word. I hear and feel every word and every feeling you are experiencing. You said it all and you said it well.

ive been studying prophecy for many years and now that I have recently retired, when I’m not playing tennis, golf, or pickle ball, I’m reading the word of God and reading other Watchmen’s words. It keeps my mind active and it allows for me to continue to fellowship with people of similar interest. 

But like you, I no longer tell anyone I have all the answers and what I think is the absolute will of God.  No, I’ve learned like you;  I feel good about knowing the big picture, but not so sure about the details. This is why I started this thread....to throw out thoughts to see if what I’m thinking can withstand the rebuttals of the many. 

Honestly, I think God knows my personality type and knows it is probably best for me to always be searching for the truth right up till the day I’m lifted out of here. The chase keeps me going, just like the energizer bunny rabbit.  😉

But what you said sounds like a good place too. You are watching, alert, and ready to respond accordingly, no matter what. Love it! 

By the way, I love your handle. Mystic sounds mysterious, I love that genre in books and tv, and pizza.....hey, I’m Italian, need I say any more? 

Shalom my “new” sister in Christ (Marilyn is my “old” sister in Christ), 

spock

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Spock said:

Hi Marilyn,

i really can’t debate this with you because it sounds pretty logical to me. But to be honest, it matters little to me if the MK is included in the DOTL. IM more concerned about when it begins.  Your timeline makes sense but I am also open to the possibility that the DOTL might begin sometime during the first half of the week and possibly even on the day of the abomination of desolation. 

When is the 6th seal opened?  Some believe before the week, Rev Man believes all seals ar opened at the midpoint of the week, and a few are open to the possibility that it can be opened sometime within the time of Peace and Safety, during the first half of the week. I just don’t know.....

 

Hi Spock,

That`s great. You do think logically. So let`s move on a step at a time to just the first part of the trib, and see what God`s word says about that.

The beginning of the trib, is told to us by Paul & Peter.

 `For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord (time period) so comes as a thief in the night.` (1 Thess. 5: 2)

`But the Day of the Lord (time period) will come as a thief in the night..` (2 Peter 3: 10)

Paul gives more detail revealing that people will be saying `”Peace & Safety” and then sudden destruction which will intensify, described as pains upon a pregnant woman, gradually getting more painful and intense.

`For when they say, “Peace & Safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 3)

So good information there. People are not expecting the disasters about to come upon them, but are saying, “Peace and Safety.” Then the disasters increase in intensity.

So what are your thoughts do far? And what would make people say, “Peace and Safety?”

Marilyn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi Spock,

That`s great. You do think logically. So let`s move on a step at a time to just the first part of the trib, and see what God`s word says about that.

The beginning of the trib, is told to us by Paul & Peter.

 `For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord (time period) so comes as a thief in the night.` (1 Thess. 5: 2)

`But the Day of the Lord (time period) will come as a thief in the night..` (2 Peter 3: 10)

Paul gives more detail revealing that people will be saying `”Peace & Safety” and then sudden destruction which will intensify, described as pains upon a pregnant woman, gradually getting more painful and intense.

`For when they say, “Peace & Safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.` (1 Thess. 5: 3)

So good information there. People are not expecting the disasters about to come upon them, but are saying, “Peace and Safety.” Then the disasters increase in intensity.

So what are your thoughts do far? And what would make people say, “Peace and Safety?”

Marilyn.

I’m thinking a SUDDEN rapture with immediate DOTL could fit 3 years into the 70th week during the time of PEACE AND SAFETY (peace treaty signed 3 years prior and the man of sin hasn’t quite been demonically possessed yet). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/17/2019 at 9:56 AM, Spock said:

This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

2. I feel much stronger in my belief that the rapture occurs around the 6th seal and this rapture is represented in the Bible in Rev 7:9-17.  But I still am foggy as to WHEN the 6th seal occurs in relation to Daniels 70th week.

3. I presently believe the 6th seal is released BEFORE the 70th week commences, which means before the covenant being confirmed, but I’m not closed to still studying other thoughts. In particular the MID TRIB RAPTURE PERSPECTIVE. 

4. I’m not interested in reading about the POST TRIB RAPTURE because I’ve read enough and find it wanting, and don’t even want to discuss this, so please no post Trib talk on this thread. I’ve studied the PRE WRATH position and agree the rapture occurs around the 6th seal but do not agree in the timing Rosenthal and Van Kampen put forth...around two years after the abomination of desolation. Im okay with pre weathers coming on this thread to share their thoughts and show me why the 6th seal cannot be released at the mid point. 

5. So, here is what I’m interested  in reading your feedback with Bible support of course: can the rapture occur either shortly before or shortly after the abomination of desolation?  Jesus did say, “when you see the abomination of desolation, run....”. I’m not 100% sure he is only talking to Jews because he believes the Christians will be gone by this time. So I’m open to discuss this...is it possible the rapture could occur immediately after this event?  Or is it possible it could occur immediately before this event.  Because I do believe the raptured and resurrected Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, when John says to the angel, who are these people, the reply is, “they came out of the great tribulation.”  This to me can mean one of two things....came out so as not to experience at all, or came out while in it. If we are in it, I feel confident it is before the trumpet and bowl judgments because the 7th seal follows the 6th seal and there is a time of silence followed by the 7 trumpet judgments. 

6. I believe The Day of the Lord (DOTL) is God’s wrath=trumpets and bowls, and  would then begin immediately after the rapture. When Rev 6:17 says “for the great day of their wrath has come” I believe this is when the day of the lord begins...right after 6th seal.

7. I’m not sold on the belief that the 70th week is only a time of Jacobs trouble and thus EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. I don’t see why the Church can’t be here as well for a while and there is a partial overlap. There always has been an overlap, right?  So this argument to support a pre Trib rapture doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me. It holds a little, but not a lot. 

8. I believe all the precursors for the DOTL to commence are all met as well with a Mid Trib position: 

a. Elijah comes first (two witnesses come in first half of the week before DOTL); Malachi 4

b. The AC is revealed first (revealing could either be when the covenant is  confirmed or at the AOD, either way, that precedes the DOTL); 2 Thess 2

c. The apostasy comes first (falling away of the Church precedes DOTL during the first half of the week); 2 Thess 2

d. Heavenly wonders, blood red moon, etc precede DOTL (6th seal precedes DOTL); Joel 2

in addition, pursuant to 1 Thess 5 the DOTL “will come like a thief in the night while the people are saying “peace and safety”” so I’m assuming after the covenant is confirmed, there will be some kind of peace treaty that allows for Jews to rebuild their temple. There should be peace in the Middle East for some 3 years following this treaty....then BOOM! 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

1. Spock, there is really no need to doubt that the 4 horsemen have already rode. You must only study and believe the CONTEXT: which is chapters 4 & 5. Notice in chapter 5 that John saw Jesus ascended and send the Holy Spirit down. You KNOW when that happened - around 32 AD.  Spock, no one can find 2000 years hidden in any verses after that up to seal number 5. That is the first hint of a long time of waiting. 

2.  I have never found solid proof that the 70th week starts with the 7th seal. However, there are very strong hints: the week ends at the 7th vial and the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpets. In other words, it seems God is using the 7's as markers.  The 7th seal as the start of the 70th week works very well and fits with the rest of John's narrative. 

3. Midtrib would mean the rapture at the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint. Sorry, not one hint that there is a rapture at the 7th trumpet, and anywhere in chapters 11 through 12 - midpoint chapters. 

4. Prewrath theory is probably the worst of all in that it requires massive rearranging of Revelation.  And it is all because Van Kampen and Rosenthal did not discern that there will be TWO times for cosmic signs: first for the start of the DAY and then 7 plus years later for Christ's coming. 

5. We can pinpoint the abomination event from those that flee, flee in 12:6. If you back up for a real time event - you back up to the 7th trumpet. That trumpet marks the abomination event in heaven.  For rapture timing, study 1 thes. 5. Paul tells us the rapture will come a moment before God's wrath begins - and we know it begins at the 6th seal. Why not just believe these verses? The rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal, and the great earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." As you know, John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after that.

6. You are right on.

7. Try reading Daniel 9: he TELLS us the week is for HIS PEOPLE.  Overlap? You KNOW there cannot be an overlap in wrath. We are OUT OF HERE by the start of His wrath at the 6th seal. But wrath begins a moment after we have escaped.

8a: Elijah DID come "first" in the person of John the baptist. Therefore they can now come in the second half of the week, exactly where John shows us. They SHOW UP just 3.5 days before the abomination event, testify for 1260 days, they die just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.

8b. No, the DEPARTING must come first: according to Paul. he is talking about the gathering coming first. The Holy Spirit working through the church is the restraining force. Once the church is gone, the Holy Spirit will have no believers to restrain - so soon after the ratpure the man of sin will be revealed.

8c. Yes, the apostasia or departing comes first. See 8b.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/23/2019 at 9:07 AM, Spock said:

Spock:. Sounds good to me. I am much more convinced the church will be gone during the GREAT TRIB, which I believe is the second half of the week. I’m not convinced the church will be gone the ENTIRE first half like pre tribbers promote. We might be gone before the week begins but I just haven’t been 100% convinced yet. I still see a scenario whereby that the rapture could take place about 6 months before the mid point of the week (the AOD). 

The Church is gone, Pre tribulation/70th week IMHO. But the Remnant Church is not gone because they come unto Christ during the 70th Week. Unlike the Jews who repent, and God protects them Himself {eagles wings} for 126o days in Petra/Bozrah {Southern Jordan}. The Remnant Church will not be protected. I guess if they make it to Petra God will protect them, but likewise, Jews that repent in say America, they will become Martyrs also. 

On 2/23/2019 at 9:07 AM, Spock said:

Interesting that you see the 1st seal opened at the midpoint, which would be right at the AOD.  The problem I had with that interpretation is that it appeared to me if I’m reading Revelation 11 right, that the two witnessses die around the midpoint and that the AC isn’t Demonically possessed until just before that time.  The 7th trumpet is released in the 11th chapter of Revelation so I am under the impression the AOD probably occurs around the 7th trumpet. If that is correct, I don’t see how the 1st seal can come after the AOD but rather the 1st BOWL instead.  I look forward to reading your rebuttal to this point I have made. Perhaps you can give me your REVELATION TIMELINE to mull over (I hope, I hope). 

 

Rev. 11 is not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation {BoR}. The 7th Trumpet is actually blown in Revelation ch. 16. The BoR goes down like this.....Rev. 1 is Jesus Glorified {the things which you HAVE SEEN}, Rev. 2 and 3 are the Seven Churches {the things which ARE} and then everything else in the BoR is the things that WILL BE HEREAFTER, Rev. 4 and 5 is the Raptured Church in Heaven, Rev. 4:4 shows that the Elders have the exact same promised gifts offered to the Seven Churches, Rev. 5:9 says they were Redeemed out of every Nation on earth, only mankind are Redeemed. 

Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 15&16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgment Events and are the actual Chronological Order of the BoR, in Rev. 16 an Angel proclaims "IT IS DONE"Thus Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are what we call Parenthetical Citations or set-a-side events that actually happen during the Seal, Trumpet and Vial portion of events via the chapters above, in red.

All of the other chapters thus must overlap those 6 chapters in some manner or another, except  20, 21 and 22, they close out the Book of Revelation of course. The Parenthetical Citation Chapters each a have specific meaning unto them, but happen during the Seal, Trumpet or Vial Judgment Events. Chapter 10 seems to be a flash forward to the very end, that is my least understood chapter at the moment however and least studied.  

Chapter 11 is thus a set-a-side detailing of the 1260 day Ministry of the Two-witnesses, that is all it is about, it has a specific intent !! The Two-witnesses die nowhere close to the Middle of the week, not understanding the Chronological Order of the BoR can make it appear that way. But the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, all that is left is thus the 3rd Woe {which is all 7 Vials combined}. So they are killed near the end of the 70th Week. We are told about the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11, but given NO DETAILS, because it actually happens in Rev. 9 where we are given the details and likewise we are told about the 7th Trumpet {3rd Woe} in Rev. 11, but given NO DETAILS because it actually happens in Rev. 16 { see how this works ? }. We know the last three Woes are the Last three Trumpets because the last verse in Rev. 8 tells us the sound of the three remaining Trumpets are the three remaining Woes. So the 7th Trumpet in Rev. 11 is actually the 3rd Woe, and the 3rd Woe is all 7 Vials combined, just like the 7th Seal is all 7 Trumpets. 

So we get told that the 7th Trumpet sounds in Rev. 11 and Jesus TAKES CONTROL or takes back dominion of the earth, but we are only told what will happen when Jesus returns at the 7th Vial {end of the 3rd Woe}, we are not given the DETAILS of the 7th Trumpet {3rd Woe}, we are given that in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials, just like we are given the DETAILS of the 2nd Woe in Rev. chapter 9. The point is, this is a set-a-side chapter about the Two-witnesses Ministry of 1260 days, or a Parenthetical Citation of sorts. The Two-witnesses pray down all of the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, that is why they are so hated by mankind who rejoice at their death, thus they pray down the 3rd Woe and DIE before it arrives, but we are given the RESULTS of their prayers, because it was prayed down by them. The Two-witnesses DIE before the Beast dies, they die at the 2nd Woe and the Beast dies at the 3rd Woe, so that means they have to show up BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel/THE MANY to become the Beast, which proves that Malachi 4:5-6 is true, that Elijah is sent back BEFORE the Day of the Lord, I will have to explain that later on, it's way too detailed, but I see the Two-witnesses as showing up 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/THE MANY to become the Beast, and thus they have to DIE 75 {2nd Woe} days before the Beast dies {7th Vial}, thus they both have 1260 days in their OFFICES !! So the 1260 Days run EXACTLY PARALLEL except the Two-witnesses show up preaching/witnessing 75 days before the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast and they thus must needs die 75 days before the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, when Jesus shows up an splits Mt. Zion into, he then SPEAKS VICTORY !! Amen. 

Rev. 12 and 13 both start when the 1st Seal is opened {Rev. ch. 6} That is pretty easy to see, the Woman {Israel} flees for 1260 days, and the Beast rules for 1260 days when he comes to power, so both of these chapters start in Rev. 6, thus they are both Parenthetical Citations !! One chapter speaks about the Jewish flight from Judea to Petra/Bozrah and the other chapter speaks about the 1260 day rule of the Beast. So both start in the Middle of the Week {1st Seal}.

Rev. 14 covers the full 7 years just like Rev. 19 does, this chapter is all about the THREE Harvests. We see the 144,000 show up on Mt. Zion with Jesus, but the 144,000 is just a Metaphor for the Jews that fled to Petra. So Jesus will GATHER them into his barn when he returns at the Second Coming, we know he lands on Mt. Zion. But in Rev. 14:14 we see Jesus on the clouds, Rapturing the Church, by thrusting in the Sickle, but later on, we see an Angel thrusts in the Sickle and Harvest the Wicked into the Wine-press {Armageddon}. The 144,000 {Jewish WHEAT} abide ON EARTH with the Wicked TARES until the very end !! The Church is in Heaven with Christ our Husband, we Marry the Lamb, Israel are the Bride of God. Thus Rev. 14 is about THREE HARVESTS, the Rapture...............then 7 years later Jesus shows up on Mt. Zion, the 144,000 which is only a Metaphor for ALL ISRAEL/every tribe or 12 x 12,000, are shown with Christ Jesus, and the Wicked are Harvested into the Winepress of God's anger, just like Rev. 16:19 tells us below, so Rev. 14, IMHO, covers the full 7 year period of the 70th week. 

Rev. 16:19 And the great city{Jerusalem} was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell{Babylon FALLS}: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 17 and 18 are two sides of one coin. The Harlot is the "False Religious" side of the coin and the Beast is the "False Government" side. Both chapters start in the Middle of the week when the 1st Seal is opened, the Harlot is judged by the Beast who comes forth Conquering, and the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments last for 1260 days against Babylon {WORLD}.  Both Royals and Religious Orders always adorned themselves in Scarlet and Purple back in the day, it was expensive, and thus exclusive. Rev. 17 is all about the Harlot being KILLED OFF and thus Judged by God, even though He is using the Beast to judge her, as He is want to do at times. The Angel says COME AND SEE the Judgment of the Great Harlot who sits on many waters. 

We are then explained just who the Scarlet Colored Beast is {Apollyon} and thus the Religious Harlot RIDES the Government Beast and always has down through the ages. But this time the Beast in charge{Anti-Christ} wants the Harlot DESTROYED or KILLED OFF, so there is no place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zeus, Witchcraft, etc. all. Thus the Kings in league with the Beast HATE the Harlot and burn her, destroy her, kill her off. The Beast desires to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! 

Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

This all starts on DAY ONE when the 1st Seal is opened, as soon as the Beast goes forth Conquering, his plan of being the ONLY GOD must go into effect. He will thus wipe out ALL Religions, Islam and its 2 billion people will be wiped out or they must take the Mark of the Beast, this is where a lot of the 1.5 to 2 billion deaths will come from {1/4 of all mankind}, the Church will be in Heaven, he will chase Israel into the Wilderness, amd kill the Gentiles who have repented since the Rapture {Remnant Church} thus they are the Martyrs under the 5th Seal. His plan is to be Worshiped as God, thus there is no place for Islam or ANY OTHER Religion on earth !! The Harlot is thus killed off starting in Rev. 6, as soon as the Beast is RELEASED by Jesus opening the First Seal in the Middle of the week. 

Rev. 18  is about the Government Beast side of the two sided coin of course. We are called to serve God in both capacities. To worship God as God and to be good stewards and fair to all men or all mankind. This chapter also starts in Rev. chapter 6, of course, Rev. 18 is God punishing Babylon {WHOLE WORLD see Revelation 16:19} with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, so it runs from Rev. chapter 6 to Rev. chapter 16. The chapter talks about her "MERCHANTS" being in despair, well of course they are, in the Seals 1.5-2 billion people are killed {bad for business}, the Sun and Moon goes dark, stars fall from Heaven to earth or either it's Satan and his demons being cast out of Heaven. Then the Trumpets burn all the grasses, 1/3 of the trees, then a 1/3 of the Sea turns to blood, a 1/3 of the Sea Creatures all die {Shrimp/Fish}, a 1/3 of all the ships {transportation} are destroyed, 1/3 of all the drinking waters are poisoned, and lastly the Sun, Moon and Stars are diminished by 1/3 { SMOKE ? }. Then we get the last Three Trumpets which are the last Three Woes. One is a Demon horde released from the bottomless pit, led by Apollyon,  the 2nd Woe is an Angelic Army that slays 1/3 of all Mankind remaining on earth {1.5 billion} and the Last Woe which seems to be ALL 7 Vials combined {7th Trumpet sounds}. 

So that would indeed make the MERCHANTS of Babylon {WHOLE WORLD} go broke and cry, no doubt !! These same Kings in Rev. 18 Cried and Lamented the Burning of Babylon. But they HATED the Harlot because one was their Government they so loved, THE BEAST,  and the other was False Religion or The Harlot, and there was no place for her anymore, the Beast wanted to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! Thus she is replaced by a False Prophet who BEASTS over Religion and demands that all men worship the Beast !! In verse 4 where God says "Come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues, that is God calling Israel out of this Wicked World, telling her to Flee from Babylon unto the Wilderness. In verse 2 where it states that Babylon {WHOLE WORLD} has become a Habitation of Devils/Demons, that is 100 percent correct, Satan has been cast out of Heaven and Apollyon the Scarlet Colored Beast and his Demon Hordes are now also abiding on earth having been freed from the Bottomless Pit !! Scary thought for those guys living at that time. So Rev. 18 is about The WHOLE WORLD {Babylon} getting hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments of God. It starts in Rev. chapter 6 when the Anti-Christ is released to go forth Conquering where he becomes THE BEAST !! We know Babylon means the WHOLE WORLD, because God gives Babylon His wrath in Rev. 16:19, and we know who it is by looking back to see who Gathered to battle against God at Armageddon via the 6th Seal.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So the BABYLON that God defeats is the KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD, thus Babylon = Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth, men who follow him are thus defined as CONFUSED, because of course that is what they really are, no man would take the Mark of the Beast unless he was deceived by Satan, the deceiver.

Rev. 19 also covers a FULL SEVEN YEARS, just like Rev. 14. The Bride is Raptured to Heaven, we are seen in Rev. 4 and 5 before the Seals are opened by Jesus Christ. We are then seen again in Rev. 7:9-17. In Rev. 19, we Marry the Lamb first, then we are seen in White in Rev. chapters 4, 5 and 7.  And later on in Rev. 19 we come back to earth on White horses {Conquerors} and Jesus defeats the Beast, which actually happens in Rev. 16. 

Rev. 20 is the Judgment Seat, Rev. 21 and 22 is the ever after and New Jerusalem. These three are a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation, whereas 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are not a part of the Chronological Order. 

GETTING THE ORDER RIGHT.............Clears many things up. 

 

Edited by Revelation Man
  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Spock said:

Greetings again my brother,

i just noticed you said here there was a 3.5 year peace treaty signed. Was that a typo?  Doesn’t Daniel 9:27 show a 7 year treaty to be made? 

In addition, your 7days=7 years is intriguing. I’m not sure it can be applied here but it does have some merit and does seem to fit. 

Im still trying to sort out your timeline.....seals start at midpoint.  If you have anything else for me to read to support that line of thinking, I’m always open to read. 

Yes, the agreement is 7 years, but the Peace only lasts 3.5 years. I think I kinda mixed up the wording a wee bit.

Edited by Revelation Man
  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Spock said:

I’m thinking a SUDDEN rapture with immediate DOTL could fit 3 years into the 70th week during the time of PEACE AND SAFETY (peace treaty signed 3 years prior and the man of sin hasn’t quite been demonically possessed yet). 

Hi Spock,

Let`s put that on a diagram -

 

........................................I...................................................................................................................>

Peace Treaty  (3 yrs)    Rapture & DOTL             3 years                                                A/C demonically possessed.

 

Is that what you mean? If the Peace Treaty is for 7 years then the A/C would be demonically possessed much earlier.

I think if you move the Peace Treaty to the beginning of the 70th week, then that would fit better. Is that what you meant?

 

.....................I..............................................................................................................................I......>

                Peace Treaty   Sudden destruction increasing in intensity                         A/C & A/D (half way)

 

``...the Day of the Lord, (period of time) so comes as a thief in the night, for when they are saying, "Peace & Safety,` then sudden destruction comes upon them as labour pains upon a pregnant woman.` (1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

We see the Peace & Safety, then SUDDENLY destruction which increases in intensity, (just like labour pains) That detail God has given is very important as it shows us that there is some destruction but then it continues and gets worse and worse.  

Now what Peace Treaty in the world would make the people of the world think. "At last there is Peace and Safety in the ...." (the Middle East / always God`s focus) There has been NO lasting peace in the Middle East for centuries, and even in our time how many wars there have we seen and even taken part in - Libya, Egypt, Yeman, Kwait, Iraq & Iran, Iraq & Syria, Afghanistan, & some I`ve missed. So if a person was able to bring peace into the Middle East, how ecstatic would the world be.  

I believe what would prompt that Peace Treaty will be the Federation from the far north (Russia) with Iran, Libya and Ethiopia,  coming down to the mountains of Israel. It is the Lord who brings them there for judgment. When their armies are nearly annihilated, the world demands "Peace". It is then that this Peace Maker steps onto the world stage and does the near impossible - brings Peace to the Middle East.

Marilyn. 

 

BTW Spock, by doing a step at a time, and confirming them, then we are not trying to juggle all the information.  Then we can build on each step. Just my thoughts.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...