Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[WilliamL]

On 4/26/2019 at 9:47 PM, iamlamad said:

I agree: sequential.  however, the earthquake when the two witnesses are raised is the very same earthquake as seen at the 7th vial. 

Actually, the context of Rev. 11:11-14 says that it occurs right before the 7th Trumpet.

[WilliamL]

On 4/30/2019 at 8:18 AM, iamlamad said:

On 4/30/2019 at 5:01 AM, Last Daze said:

There is only one return of Jesus and it happens like this:

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

Do you really think that the disciples stood there for seven years looking up into the sky?

You are half right: there WILL BE a coming exactly as described here. We see it in Rev. 19. But there will also be a coming exactly as described in 1 Thes. 4, where He only comes to the clouds - NO TOUCHDOWN. Go and read John 14. He will come to the clouds, then take His bride to the mansions He has prepared. Read ALL the scripture!

You are both partially right. The Coming of the Lord will be continuous, but with two separate public great appearances, just like it was in the time of the Exodus:

the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, and called the elect to go up to meet Him. This was the type of the Latter-Day calling up of His elect up to him on heavenly Mount Zion:

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels...

then the Lord stayed involved in earthly events for more than forty years, ending with the final "Battle of Armageddon" for that time: Joshua 10's war with the assembled nations gathered out against Israel, when "the Lord fought for Israel." Josh. 10:14

Likewise, in the Latter Days, 

 Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle [in Joshua's time].

Ezek. 20:33ff. tells of the Lord's active "face to face" gathering and purging of earthly Israel during Jer. 30:7's "time of Jacob's trouble." But the Raptured Rev. 7 saints will be in heaven at that time.

Just because the Lord takes up his elect to heaven when He descends visibly the first time does not mean that He won't remain involved in the earthly events that follow, just as He did during the Exodus.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You are both partially right. The Coming of the Lord will be continuous, but with two separate public great appearances, just like it was in the time of the Exodus:

the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, and called the elect to go up to meet Him. This was the type of the Latter-Day calling up of His elect up to him on heavenly Mount Zion:

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels...

then the Lord stayed involved in earthly events for more than forty years, ending with the final "Battle of Armageddon" for that time: Joshua 10's war with the assembled nations gathered out against Israel, when "the Lord fought for Israel." Josh. 10:14

Likewise, in the Latter Days, 

 Zech. 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle [in Joshua's time].

Ezek. 20:33ff. tells of the Lord's active "face to face" gathering and purging of earthly Israel during Jer. 30:7's "time of Jacob's trouble." But the Raptured Rev. 7 saints will be in heaven at that time.

Just because the Lord takes up his elect to heaven when He descends visibly the first time does not mean that He won't remain involved in the earthly events that follow, just as He did during the Exodus.

I think John 14 and Rev. 19 - the marriage and supper - disagree with your theory.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Actually, the context of Rev. 11:11-14 says that it occurs right before the 7th Trumpet.

It may appear on the first reading that you are right: that is, their death and resurrection are indeed written in chapter 11. But what you have missed is that that part of the passage is written as a parenthesis.

The two witnesses suddenly show up right in chapter 11 verse 3, right where John first mentions them. They show up exactly 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week.  They begin their testimony then, and testify for 1260 days. That takes them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.  They are then killed, and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and are resurrected at the sounding of the 7th vial. Notice, at the 7th vial, there is a terrible earthquake: it is the very same earthquake as recorded by John in chapter 11.

WHY do they show up then - 3.5 days before the midpoint? It is very simple: in 11:1-2, the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. His armies will trample the city for 42 months.  The two witnesses show up then because HE shows up then.

Please take note: The 42 months of trampling are recorded in chapter 11, but I don't think anyone believes the 42 months ENDS in chapter 11. Most understand, the 42 month countdown BEGINS in that verse of mention, but will not end until at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

In chapter 12: 6, the 1260 day countdown of fleeing  BEGINS right there in verse 6, but will not end until at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

In verse 14, the 3.5 year countdown begins, but will not end until at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

In chapter 13, verse 5, the countdown for the Beast's authority will begin, but it will not end until after the 7th vial that ends the week.

Why then would ANYONE imagine that the 1260 days of the two witnesses would be any different? The only difference is, John chose to tell us about their time in a parenthesis.  Sadly, most people do not recognize it as such.

In other words, no one believes the other 4 mentions of the 3.5 years start and end in the same verse or even in the same chapter. The truth is, all five mentions of the 3.5 years, whether given in days, months or times, all begin at or near the midpoint, and go to the end of the week.

For perspective, note that the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th vial ends it, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

For chronology, read the red print only:

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

(⁴ These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

⁵ And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

⁶ These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The gray print is written as a parenthesis. John did not have nice marks to use when he wrote a parenthesis. We learn when he uses them by study. When we understand this, we see that the man if sin will enter Jerusalem with his Gentile armies - probably just 3.5 to 4 days before the day He will enter the temple and declare he is God -  the abomination Jesus spoke of.  Then, because he came, God sends His two witnesses. John does not tell us, but my guess is, they show up seconds after the man of sin showed up in Jerusalem. Understand, he must first GET to Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem.

Note carefully, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment of the abomination of desolation on earth.

Edited May 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[WilliamL]

So much speculation, so little evidence.

[douggg]

On 4/9/2019 at 2:08 PM, WilliamL said:

Daniel 11:40 “In a time of an end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many  shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Cushites shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his pavilion between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. 12:1 At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time."

-- the latter phrase in bold referring to the Great Tribulation.

Whether you are pre-, mid-, or post-trib, all of the events leading up to verse 12:1 may well occur while you are still here.

So the question is: what changes in the current global political scene do you think must take place first, before the events of 11:40 are likely to occur?

(For one example, who would invade Egypt now, while el-Sisi is in power? Would he need to be overthrown first, in order to cause the King of the North to subdue a different government in Egypt?)

 

 

William, the events in Daniel 11:40 are near the very end of the 7 years.    The person will have already become the beast 3 years earlier, because he is claiming to be highest ranking god in a tier of gods in Daniel 11:36-38.

The end times in Daniel 11, picks up in the middle of the seven years in Daniel 11:36.

So there are a lot of things that have to happen first.    I don't think it possible to project today's politics to the great tribulation.

What we can project though is todays politics to Gog/Magog.  

And after Gog/Magog is when the 7 years begin.

What I would watch for in today's politics is Russia, Syria, Iran in the middle east.     In Europe, Brexit.    Which there has to be a change in the EU structure to get to the ten leader form of government with the little horn over them.          Then Gog/Magog will follow.    Then the seven years begin.    Then in the middle of the 7 years, the great tribulation.     Then near the end of the 7 years, Daniel 11:40-45.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Egypt, the Romans, Greece, Assyria were the countries involved in antiquity times, being the kings of the north and south.

In the end times, it is global forces.   The kings of the west, the king of the north, the king of the south, the kings of the east.

The kings of the east are not mentioned in the antiquity verses, because those focus on Egypt, Assyria.     The willful king in verse 36 is  the beast of Revelation.   His ten king kingdom is the west.    It is the EU.    The kings of the East are the Chinese and  Asian countries.

The king of the south, the leader of the Africa countries.    There is some movement in Africa to have a pan-Africa alliance.

The king of the north, Russia and allies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2019 by douggg

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 5/8/2019 at 8:44 AM, WilliamL said:

So much speculation, so little evidence.

Yeah, maybe it is a good thing, that this thread has pretty much died. However, I feel a bit disappointed, that iIamlamad sort of invited me, if not challenged me to respond to something on my position that had some specifics. He said:

Quote

Speak up! Don't just make inferences! If you can pinpoint the rapture to a point in time by scripture, show us.

He is not obligated to  refute me (though if that is possible, it is welcomed) nor to agree with me (I would not hold my breath for that) nor even to acknowledge that I might have even made one tiny little point that was interesting, if not valid or reasonable. It would have at least been nice to see a "Thank you for responding" or something, since I did so at his request. My response was back in April of 2019. It is never too late, but, it is also ok to let this thread die too!

[Diaste]

On 5/3/2019 at 3:38 PM, iamlamad said:

It may appear on the first reading that you are right: that is, their death and resurrection are indeed written in chapter 11. But what you have missed is that that part of the passage is written as a parenthesis.

The two witnesses suddenly show up right in chapter 11 verse 3, right where John first mentions them. They show up exactly 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week.  They begin their testimony then, and testify for 1260 days. That takes them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.  They are then killed, and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, and are resurrected at the sounding of the 7th vial. Notice, at the 7th vial, there is a terrible earthquake: it is the very same earthquake as recorded by John in chapter 11.

WHY do they show up then - 3.5 days before the midpoint? It is very simple: in 11:1-2, the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. His armies will trample the city for 42 months.  The two witnesses show up then because HE shows up then.

Please take note: The 42 months of trampling are recorded in chapter 11, but I don't think anyone believes the 42 months ENDS in chapter 11. Most understand, the 42 month countdown BEGINS in that verse of mention, but will not end until at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

In chapter 12: 6, the 1260 day countdown of fleeing  BEGINS right there in verse 6, but will not end until at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

In verse 14, the 3.5 year countdown begins, but will not end until at or near the 7th vial that ends the week. 

In chapter 13, verse 5, the countdown for the Beast's authority will begin, but it will not end until after the 7th vial that ends the week.

Why then would ANYONE imagine that the 1260 days of the two witnesses would be any different? The only difference is, John chose to tell us about their time in a parenthesis.  Sadly, most people do not recognize it as such.

In other words, no one believes the other 4 mentions of the 3.5 years start and end in the same verse or even in the same chapter. The truth is, all five mentions of the 3.5 years, whether given in days, months or times, all begin at or near the midpoint, and go to the end of the week.

For perspective, note that the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th vial ends it, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.

For chronology, read the red print only:

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

(⁴ These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

⁵ And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

⁶ These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The gray print is written as a parenthesis. John did not have nice marks to use when he wrote a parenthesis. We learn when he uses them by study. When we understand this, we see that the man if sin will enter Jerusalem with his Gentile armies - probably just 3.5 to 4 days before the day He will enter the temple and declare he is God -  the abomination Jesus spoke of.  Then, because he came, God sends His two witnesses. John does not tell us, but my guess is, they show up seconds after the man of sin showed up in Jerusalem. Understand, he must first GET to Jerusalem if he is to enter the temple in Jerusalem.

Note carefully, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the moment of the abomination of desolation on earth.

And yet the people of God are not appointed to wrath. Unless it's part of the story. 

"Oops, we have a plot hole." 

[Diaste]

On 5/3/2019 at 11:47 AM, WilliamL said:

You are both partially right. The Coming of the Lord will be continuous, but with two separate public great appearances, just like it was in the time of the Exodus:

I have been hearing this for nearly 40 years. In vain I searched for the proof and found none.

I would like to see irrefutable evidence for this that specifically separates any of the scriptures referring to the 2nd coming into two events years apart.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have been hearing this for nearly 40 years. In vain I searched for the proof and found none.

I would like to see irrefutable evidence for this that specifically separates any of the scriptures referring to the 2nd coming into two events years apart.

I've only ever found the return of Christ in the singular.  It's never the returns of Christ or the comings of Christ.  The SINGULAR return of Jesus is patterned after His ascension as it says in Acts 1.

• They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11

As far as I'm concerned, It doesn't get any more straightforward than that.  People who try to make that verse say more than what it says deceive themselves.