What is a cult?

[Neighbor]

39 minutes ago, Tigger56 said:

There are Christians that believe in God the Father and God the Son, but believe the holy spirit is their spirit and power but not an individual God.  Would that make them a cult?

Would that not make them dualists? Dualists instead of trinitarians? Is it essential to  Christianity to understand God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and  God the Son Jesus? Yes it is.

I understand anyone denying any of the Trinity is not a Christian. HOWEVER, not every Christian understands  The Father,  Nor the Son, nor th e Holy Spirit upon their own salvation,  their own turning about from the sin against God. THEREFORE they are not yet rebelling against the triune nature of God they just don't yet know.

Example I was an athiest: so I knew not any of the persons of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit turned me about to Jesus and my accepting Him as my savior. Did I know the Holy Spirit at that point? No!

Did I really know God the Father? No. BUT once I began to read and to listen and to pray and to study, I embraced God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son,  one God in three persons.

I did not actively deny any one  of the trinity. And to me there is the difference, an active, and deliberate  denial. A person, or a faith that denies the Holy Spirit and declares that to be only an attribute of the Father is a cultist. They substitute another gospel for what is declared within the Bible.

[Tigger56]

10 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Would that not make them dualists? Dualists instead of trinitarians? Is it essential to  Christianity to understand God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and  God the Son Jesus? Yes it is.

I understand anyone denying any of the Trinity is not a Christian. HOWEVER, not every Christian understands  The Father,  Nor the Son, nor th e Holy Spirit upon their own salvation,  their own turning about from the sin against God. THEREFORE they are not yet rebelling against the triune nature of God they just don't yet know.

Example I was an athiest: so I knew not any of the persons of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit turned me about to Jesus and my accepting Him as my savior. Did I know the Holy Spirit at that point? No!

Did I really know God the Father? No. BUT once I began to read and to listen and to pray and to study, I embraced God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Son,  one God in three persons.

I did not actively deny any one  of the trinity. And to me there is the difference, an active, and deliberate  denial. A person, or a faith that denies the Holy Spirit and declares that to be only an attribute of the Father is a cultist. They substitute another gospel for what is declared within the Bible.

I'm not wanting to debate the trinity but you clearly exclude a "Christian" if they do not accept a doctrine that wasn't fully embraced until the 3rd century. Does that make all the ones that followed Jesus after his death...  non christians, or simply the ignorant?  I found one definition of another word not used by you... 

Monarchianism is a Christian theology that emphasizes God as one, in direct contrast to Trinitarianism which defines God as three persons coexisting consubstantially as one in being.

Note that it still refers to this as a Christian theology.

My point is once again. I am not so quick to judge others as being cults or not Christian. If someone declares their belief in the Son of God, and follow him as they believe, with a difference of doctrines, why are they then non Christian, and why a cult? Another example is heaven... some believe that you go to heaven right when you die, others belief that your spirit goes to heaven but that you are as one asleep and you do not awake until the resurrection when the spirit is joined back to a spiritual body when the trumpet sounds or to a physical body depended upon which resurrection.  Would this also make them a non Christian and a cult? I hold my beliefs dear, but I don't want to force them upon others or be quick to declare a brother or sister in Christ as a non-christian simply because of a difference of belief, even if that difference incorporates some of the main doctrines of mainstream Christianity beliefs. 

 

[Neighbor]

41 minutes ago, Tigger56 said:

I hold my beliefs dear, but I don't want to force them upon others 

Okay, you want me to embrace what you evidently consider to be your broader latitude than mine do you not? That said, I do not think my own understanding to be judgemental of others, not at all. It is my understanding that God will have with Him who He wills, even me, it seems  despite my  rejection of His existence I was always saved as known to God that it is to be so. I do not judge the servant of another. I do discern what I may of what God wills for me.

As to OSAS I say  there is no such thing as once saved, that implies a time when one was not saved. Yet instead I see that I was always saved, for God always knew it. I have always been saved, from before the beginning, known to God from before the begiining, and never to be lost by Jesus to whom I have been given. 

Using the declaration that I find in the Bible, God has foreknown, God has also predestined, all those that He has given His son, plus that Jesus does not lose a one. That is simply declaration made  within our Bible.

 I also run the race as though to win it, though I may stumble I go on, though I may bleed I go on, and not for myself  by my merit, but so that I may have garland to place at my Lord's feet. He has done it all, He has saved me personally. He came, he died, He descended, He arose, and He ascended- for me. Me! How awesome a gift a sacrifice that no man could nor would make.

I also understand that my Bible says many will call our Lord Jesus their Lord and he will say, I never knew you.

In all of that I see no conflict, for it has all been reconciled by God, and a pledge already made in The Holy Spirit which indwells each of us that are turned about by God from our sin against Him to our worship of Him. 

 

[Firm Foundation]

If you simply look up the definition, you can call any group a cult, and any minister a cult leader.   I usually use it to describe groups that deny the deity of Christ.

[Still Alive]

2 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I'd say a cult would need to meet a few qualifiers. The more of these criteria it meets the more likely it's a cult.

1: Their beliefs are significantly different from the mainstream of whatever faith the cult is descended from.

2: There's often a layer of secrecy to their teachings and practices.

3: Its members are being exploited by the leaders in some fashion.

4: Cults are often centered around an individual, like the founder or leader.

5: Cults tend to isolate their members from their friends and family.

I like your list but would remove the first one. I consider Islam a cult, yet it is mainstream in many areas. i.e. I believe a cult can be huge and old.

Which brings me to what I would replace it with:

"They believe that their organization has a special dispensation and only their members can participate fully in that dispensation."

That speaks to my newfound belief that Catholicism is actually a cult. It's old, it's big, and in many areas it's mainstream, but it is still a cult.

 

[Tigger56]

6 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Okay, you want me to embrace what you evidently consider to be your broader latitude than mine do you not? That said, I do not think my own understanding to be judgemental of others, not at all. It is my understanding that God will have with Him who He wills, even me, it seems  despite my  rejection of His existence I was always saved as known to God that it is to be so. I do not judge the servant of another. I do discern what I may of what God wills for me.

As to OSAS I say  there is no such thing as once saved, that implies a time when one was not saved. Yet instead I see that I was always saved, for God always knew it. I have always been saved, from before the beginning, known to God from before the begiining, and never to be lost by Jesus to whom I have been given. 

Using the declaration that I find in the Bible, God has foreknown, God has also predestined, all those that He has given His son, plus that Jesus does not lose a one. That is simply declaration made  within our Bible.

 I also run the race as though to win it, though I may stumble I go on, though I may bleed I go on, and not for myself  by my merit, but so that I may have garland to place at my Lord's feet. He has done it all, He has saved me personally. He came, he died, He descended, He arose, and He ascended- for me. Me! How awesome a gift a sacrifice that no man could nor would make.

I also understand that my Bible says many will call our Lord Jesus their Lord and he will say, I never knew you.

In all of that I see no conflict, for it has all been reconciled by God, and a pledge already made in The Holy Spirit which indwells each of us that are turned about by God from our sin against Him to our worship of Him. 

 

 You stated: Okay, you want me to embrace what you evidently consider to be your broader latitude than mine do you not?

In this sentence.... I do not want you to necessarily change and embrace, rather perhaps to understand why I refuse to quickly  label or mislabel others. I don't want to quickly label something as bad when it is good or label something as good when it is bad. I truly believe all should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Can this not be done without first placing others as less than we are, or more ignorant than we are, etc.... I can accept others beliefs as their beliefs, without agreeing to them or by compromising my own. I will pray those who do not see as I do that their minds be opened, but prayer has no power without love. I will love them where they are. I will love them as God loves all men. I will not compromise, but I also will be not quickly label what someone must believe to be a Christian, nor will I quickly label a group as a cult simply because it does not conform to my beliefs. For in labels I often see judgement.

[BeauJangles]

It's somewhat disheartening to me, to think that the majority of Baptists, excluding Free Will Baptists, are now being lumped into a 'cult' status merely due to their belief in eternal security. Just saying IMHO. God bless. 

Shalom,

David/BeauJangles

P.S. I'm non-denominational, but have attended churches on both sides of the fence on this topic, by the way.  

[Tigger56]

1 minute ago, BeauJangles said:

It's somewhat disheartening to me, to think that the majority of Baptists, excluding Free Will Baptists, are now being lumped into a 'cult' status merely due to their belief in eternal security. Just saying IMHO. God bless. 

Shalom,

David/BeauJangles

P.S. I'm non-denominational, but have attended churches on both sides of the fence on this topic, by the way.  

I agree, though not a Baptist, it is disheartening. I had one minister from another church once tell me that he felt that "doctrinal differences" were of darkness. He went on to explain that anything that separates, anything that prevents unity of love between all believers of the Lord is detrimental and is a great tool of the devil. We both held to different beliefs but were still friends and had great love for one another. I never once felt that he wasn't following the Lord even though our beliefs were quite different in how we should follow Him. We accepted our differences and embraced our similarities! That is why I hold to the belief that the use of the label "cult" is too often a label used for anyone that believes differently than oneself.

[Neighbor]

51 minutes ago, Tigger56 said:

Can this not be done without first placing others as less than we are, or more ignorant than we are, etc....

Not only can, it must be! Otherwise one  tends to give self merit in one's own mind's eye. Doing so takes away the total sovereignty of God. That can't be done.

As Paul is recorded to have stated. In the best kings James English of his time: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

[JohnD]

cult

noun: cult; plural noun: cults

1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

"the cult of St. Olaf"

2. a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"

synonyms:sect, religious group, denomination, religious order, church, faith, faith community, belief, persuasion, affiliation, movement; More

group, body, faction, clique

"a religious cult"

3. a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.

*******************************************************

The word in and of itself is not a dirty word. Cult followings include Rock fans, Kardashian fans, etc. IMHO "culture" is a briefer version or variant of "culture."

When used of religious sects (especially in Christian forums etc.) it refers to aberrant forms of Christianity (untruth about Christ / Christianity).

It is untruth that is dirty (especially when the objective of the Christian faith is truth).

Contrary to popular opinion / definition, the term "cult" is not reserved to small outcroppings of aberrant theology like Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Latter Day Saints.

(Oneness / Unity)  Apostolic or Pentecostal or even the Boston Church of Christ movement hold to aberrant theology and would qualify as cults.

Heresies like the various degrees of Preterism qualify as cults which is more evident the deeper one digs into their beliefs which taint core theology. I know, I have swam in the cesspool of Preterism for over 20 years trying to win those who subscribe to it over to the truth about Preterism. 

Former Roman Catholics for the most part believe Catholicism is a cult. I lean toward that definition but haven't given it serious enough prayer and study to firmly plant my flag in that soil yet.

But then again, all the denominations that are heavily swayed / influenced by Roman Catholicism would have to be in the same consideration.

I guess I'm not quite to the point of declaring all theologically aberrant denominations cults.

Observe the divisions and decisiveness between the denominations (which ought to alert us that something is wrong). 

God is not divided. A house divided against itself cannot stand  - Jesus of Nazareth.

History is replete with former strongholds of ancient forms of Christianity where now  (secular) humanism, cults, false religions, atheism, and satanism now stand.

It is my humble opinion that this is also a significant sign of the end time.

Jesus said it would come in a day that people are marrying and being given in marriage (in other words a time when people are oblivious to what's coming and they feel at peace when there is no peace, prosperous when in fact they are miserable, wretched, poor, blind, and naked).

The absolute sign will be when (not if but when) the Jewish Temple is rebuilt on Temple Mount in Jerusalem, Israel.

Edited May 8, 2019 by JohnD