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jsimms615

a multitude from the Tribulation

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31 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

 

Hi childoftheking,

It would be good if you addressed your rather rude remark - *`**Someone obviously is CHERRY PICKING SCRIPTURE, and doing a horrible job at it!!*** `

Marilyn.

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1 hour ago, Cletus said:

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet(1Co 15:52), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

can anyone reconcile this passage with pre-trib for me? 

Shalom, Cletus.

The first thing one must understand is that "heaven" means "the sky," specifically, "the atmosphere." So, where is an "end of heaven?" Well, the four compass directions are already covered by the phrase "from the four winds." The "ends of heaven" are the lowest point to the highest point of the atmosphere!

Mattityahu ("Matthew") uses the phrase "from one end of heaven to the other," but [Yochanan] Marcus ("[John] Mark") uses the phrase "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." In other words, from the lowest point of the ground/land to the highest point of the atmosphere. Thus, they are BOTH covering all six of the directions, North, South, East, West, Down, and Up!

The second thing one must understand is that "tribulation" is NOT defined as the seventieth Week of Daniel!

According to Yeshua` in all three of the "Synoptic Gospels" (Matthew, Mark and Luke), this "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure"), while ending just before the Son of man returns, actually began while the disciples (even the Apostles) were still alive! The warnings were aimed DIRECTLY at His disciples - the disciples who were sitting right there in front of Him on the Mount of Olives! Therefore, this "tribulation" has been happening for almost 2,000 years now, and it's not over until the Messiah Yeshua` returns.

Establish these key points, and the rest will fall into place.

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1 minute ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Cletus.

The first thing one must understand is that "heaven" means "the sky," specifically, "the atmosphere." So, where is an "end of heaven?" Well, the four compass directions are already covered by the phrase "from the four winds." The "ends of heaven" are the lowest point to the highest point of the atmosphere!

Mattityahu ("Matthew") uses the phrase "from one end of heaven to the other," but [Yochanan] Marcus ("[John] Mark") uses the phrase "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." In other words, from the lowest point of the ground/land to the highest point of the atmosphere. Thus, they are BOTH covering all six of the directions, North, South, East, West, Down, and Up!

The second thing one must understand is that "tribulation" is NOT defined as the seventieth Week of Daniel!

According to Yeshua` in all three of the "Synoptic Gospels" (Matthew, Mark and Luke), this "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure"), while ending just before the Son of man returns, actually began while the disciples (even the Apostles) were still alive! The warnings were aimed DIRECTLY at His disciples - the disciples who were sitting right there in front of Him on the Mount of Olives! Therefore, this "tribulation" has been happening for almost 2,000 years now, and it's not over until the Messiah Yeshua` returns.

Establish these key points, and the rest will fall into place.

I made bold the key points.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days

you see it says those days... ever read in the bible these days?  its talking about from the beginning of sorrows till the last day, which is what Jesus said. in that context its looking forward, so its not as your saying been ongoing, while I can say there is relevancy to it being ongoing thats not whats being said here.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

this is chronilogical order... after the trib... and then...

and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven

this already establishes it is the sky.  the same sky where fallen angels have their rule now, spiritual wickedness in high places...

with a great sound of a trumpet(1Co 15:52)

this is a big clue to the last trump in 1 cor 15:52. 

gather together his elect

his elect being us, not the jews as some will say as we too the church are His elect, His chosen... Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

I can include much more of the passage/chapter but kept it short to keep it simple there is much more chronological order.  it begins immediately after the tribulation of those days.  we need to establish this first phrase before we can move on.

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4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi childoftheking,

It would be good if you addressed your rather rude remark - *`**Someone obviously is CHERRY PICKING SCRIPTURE, and doing a horrible job at it!!*** `

Marilyn.

My bad!!

 

From the scripture reference you gave, when discussing with the other poster, it appeared to seem sketch.

But now that you explained, I see that I was incorrect and wrong.

I do apologize for that, and hope you understand it was a complete misunderstanding!!

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1 minute ago, childoftheking said:

My bad!!

 

From the scripture reference you gave, when discussing with the other poster, it appeared to seem sketch.

But now that you explained, I see that I was incorrect and wrong.

I do apologize for that, and hope you understand it was a complete misunderstanding!!

Good job on that! Apologies and admittance of wrong, are sometimes a rarity here!

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Good job on that! Apologies and admittance of wrong, are sometimes a rarity here!

Thank You!!

 

I am wrong a lot, even though I believe what I do until proven wrong.

But I have no issue to ever admit that I am wrong, when it does happen.

I can thank that on having a good foundation of Grandparents, parents, uncles and aunts all grounded in the Lord!!

Edited by childoftheking
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40 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

My bad!!

 

From the scripture reference you gave, when discussing with the other poster, it appeared to seem sketch.

But now that you explained, I see that I was incorrect and wrong.

I do apologize for that, and hope you understand it was a complete misunderstanding!!

Hi childoftheking,

Thank you for your apology, and it is accepted. I realise that you were misunderstanding what I was replying to jsimms. Glad that is sorted out and we can continue to share and get to know each other in the Lord.

Marilyn.

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6 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi childoftheking,

Thank you for your apology, and it is accepted. I realise that you were misunderstanding what I was replying to jsimms. Glad that is sorted out and we can continue to share and get to know each other in the Lord.

Marilyn.

Indeed,

I definitely enjoy learning other people's views from their perspective of our Lord and Savior.    I can sometimes put things out there that does require the patience of the reader.   But my intentions are never to cause harm or ill will.   So when I see someone offended or believe they could be, I want to make it right as soon as I possibly can.

 

Thank You for understanding and accepting my apology!!

 

Rich

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On 5/23/2019 at 8:07 AM, jsimms615 said:

who are these multitude of people who come from all sorts of different nations and tribes and are so numerous that they can't be counted?  Clearly they are believers who were in the tribulation period.  

Very simply, ...those who were in the Cults before the Rapture removed the True Church of Jesus Christ from this planet, ...those that had knocked on doors to sell their magazines, those that were bicycle riding missionaries, ...any and all that had never heard the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Think about it, ALL children under the age of accountability will be taken in the Rapture, ...those children whose parents were in the Cults or some other false religion, ...gone in the twinkle of an eye, ...imagine what that will do to their parents, ...what emotional impact that will have on them, ...they will search for them, ...also they will go to the homes of born again believers they talked with and not find them Heb 11:15.

The ONLY Blood, ...the ONLY SINLESS Blood in Heaven is that of out Lord Jesus Christ, ...that means when we are Raptured the only thing they will find is our blood stained clothes, ...along with those of their children, ...for some it will suddenly hit them that they were wrong in their religious beliefs, ...at the same time we are told there are 144,000 Jewish servants of God, sealed so that the enemy can't touch them, announcing the Gospel, also we are told there is an Angel flying in the sky preaching the Everlasting Gospel, ...with everything that is talking place at that time, Father will take away the blindness in their minds that the god of the world has placed in them 2 Cor 4:4, and they will turn to Jesus Christ and be saved.

Also, Revelation 7:15 tells us the Tribulation Saints will before the Throne of God day and night to serve Him, whereas the the born again believers of Jesus' Church will reign and rule with Him, ...big difference. 

Lord bless

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7 hours ago, Cletus said:

I made bold the key points.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days

you see it says those days... ever read in the bible these days?  its talking about from the beginning of sorrows till the last day, which is what Jesus said. in that context its looking forward, so its not as your saying been ongoing, while I can say there is relevancy to it being ongoing thats not whats being said here.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven

this is chronilogical order... after the trib... and then...

and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven

this already establishes it is the sky.  the same sky where fallen angels have their rule now, spiritual wickedness in high places...

with a great sound of a trumpet(1Co 15:52)

this is a big clue to the last trump in 1 cor 15:52. 

gather together his elect

his elect being us, not the jews as some will say as we too the church are His elect, His chosen... Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

I can include much more of the passage/chapter but kept it short to keep it simple there is much more chronological order.  it begins immediately after the tribulation of those days.  we need to establish this first phrase before we can move on.

Shabbat shalom, Cletus.

Yes, MUCH more could be said! Why? Because you must take the WHOLE of Scriptures to mesh together a satisfactory solution!

Yeshua` DID take some chronological order WITHIN the many points that He covered in the Olivet Discourse, but each pathway to the future started with His disciples sitting right there in front of Him! THEN, He delved into the future!

(First, note that "ye" and "you" are plural in the King's English, the English of King James' day. The words "thee" and "thou" are singular.)

You focused on the "those days" mention, but that was WITHIN one of these pathways to the future, and at that point in the pathway, He was looking ahead to the future! Let's look at that particular pathway:

Matthew 24:26-31 (KJV)

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you (plural in the King's English),

'Behold (Look!), he is in the desert!';

(you) go not forth:

'behold (Look!), he is in the secret chambers!';

(you) believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase (the meat; the prey - YOU, disciples) is, there will the eagles (vultures; carrion birds - the hunters) be gathered together (flock).

29 Immediately after the tribulation ("pressure") of those days (what days? ALL "those days" since then!) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (the sky), and the powers of the heavens (skies; atmosphere) shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (in the sky): and then shall all the tribes (families) of the earth (Land) mourn (a quote from Zechariah 12:10-14), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (clouds of the sky) with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels (messengers) with a great (loud) sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

(Verse 27 has an analogy inserted into this pathway to explain WHY one shouldn't believe the lies of those who would trick the unwary and be deceived. It's not primarily part of the pathway. While verses 29-31 are definitely in our future [since they haven't happened, yet], verses 26-28 are about His disciples' SOON future right then in the First Century A.D!)

Mark 13:21-27 (KJV)

21 "And then (at that time in the disciples' future) if any man shall say to you (plural in the King's English),

'Lo (Look!), here is Christ (the Messiah)!';

or,

'lo (Look!), He is there!';

believe him not!: 22 For false Christs (fake Messiahs) and false prophets (fake prophets) shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect (the Jews including those who believed Yeshua` is the Messiah). 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven (of the sky) shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven (in the sky) shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they (NOT "YOU!") see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (the Jews including those who believe that Yeshua` is the Messiah) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the ground) to the uttermost part of heaven (the sky)."

Luke 21:23-28 (KJV)

23 "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people (the JEWS). 24And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations (the Diaspora): and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven (of the sky) shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they (NOT YOU!) see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then (you) look up, and (you) lift up your heads; for your redemption (buying back) draweth nigh.

Verse 28 here is talking about AFTER the resurrection! Therefore, He reverted to the "you" understood in "look up" and "lift up" and the word "your" used twice because the disciples to whom He was talking would be alive again!

Thus, part of the Olivet Discourse is aimed DIRECTLY to His disciples then in the First Century, and part of it is aimed at the END (after us)! The "tribulation" covers ALL that time! 

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