Two separate wars?? Your thoughts please.

[other one]

8 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

So, relating to this I have two more questions. Why do we need the 1k years? Why do we need a 'temple' and sacrifices and how do we equate this with the 'Kingdom has come nigh unto you' and one is 'placed in the Kingdom' when one believes on Yeshua and is 'translated' into this Kingdom. How does this fit with Daniel and Revelations?

It all is probably deliberately obscure since God did not telegraph succinctly the first Advent, and does not seem to want to telegraph the Second Advent very clearly. Could the millennium be a red herring? Perhaps designed to give the principalities time they will never get to enjoy? Yahweh is not above a bit of 'creative licence'.

I think it is simply an object lesson for the whole universe....   remove Satan and watch how humans go from there, then release him and watch him bring humans down again....    super justifying what he's going to do to Satan and his followers.

[Uriah]

13 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

 Why do we need the 1k years?             Why do we need a 'temple' and sacrifices

The 1,000 yrs is a Sabbath of sorts. This period will show how man is dependent on God because when there is an evil influence we fail.

"Need" a temple and sacrifices? Not really. This has been explained as something like a living museum to remind people (there will be pilgrimages streaming to Jerusalem) of the horrific awfulness of sin and how Jesus was sacrificed for the world.

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Jostler said:

 men and women will enter the Millennial Reign without passing through death and receiving a new spiritual, resurrection body.  these are the men and women who will repopulate 

 

I totally disagree with this. NOBODY can receive a resurrection body unless they have died! Also a resurrection body according to Jesus would make us "as the angels"

Matt. 22:30-  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mark 12:25- For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

[Jostler]

Just now, Uriah said:

I totally disagree with this. NOBODY can receive a resurrection body unless they have died! Also a resurrection body according to Jesus would make us "as the angels"

Matt. 22:30-  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mark 12:25- For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

bro that was my point.  They haven't died, so they can't possibly have obtained resurrection bodies.  Those who are kept alive by His  cutting the  time short logically have to enter into the millennium in fallen flesh bodies....just like we now have.  Maybe i wasn't clear, but that's what i was trying to convey with the "two classes of humans" discussion above.

Quote

Mat 24:22

“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The idea presented there is no one would have survived the period just before Jesus arrival, unless He "cut the time short" in some way, followed by an assurance that for the  sake of His own He would in fact the cut the time short and some lives would be spared by that.  Ergo, they enter into the Kingdom age in this life, never having passed through death in order to receive a resurrection body.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, DustyRoad said:

There shall be two resurrections: the first resurrection may be thought of as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when the Son of God presents his Bride blameless before our Father in heaven. This is also that 1,000 years when Satan will be bound, prevented from deceiving the nations. After this period he will be released for a very short time to deceive the nations and prepare for that great and terrible Day of the Lord. 

Hi Dusty

To eliminate the difficulty you referred to try this:

Go to Rev. 20 and when you read the chapter simply put parentheses around vv. 7-10. You will then see that those sentences are a digression into the future. Then John returns to the events at the beginning of the 1K yrs. making it read as the great white throne judgment takes place at the beginning and NOT at the end of the 1K yrs. Otherwise we would have to wait a thousand for Jesus to say "enter in"!!!

Edited September 14, 2019 by Uriah
spelling

[Jostler]

Justin you asked so many  questions I'm interested in, i'm struggling to stay  on topic.   I'm going to  throw out  a couple things by just adding my  comments in red

On 9/12/2019 at 2:45 AM, Justin Adams said:

Seems like there are two separate wars...

maybe even three?  LOL  i dunno, it's something I've had on my list of things to really try to dig into but it hasn't risen to the top of my  priority  list yet. 

 

So the question is, if there are two wars, where and when do they occur?

I do concur there are probably  at least two in view ...as Uriah said, a thousand years apart.   One coincidental with His physical return, and the other likely a description of the overthrow of the  last rebellion at the end of the millennial reign, just as Father is "returning".

 

(har megiddo) and other translational renditions, might be John's clever word-smithing that can also mean Moutain(s) of The Lord. Jerusalem, the Holy City of God. It seems it has nothing to do with Megiddo which is a plain and not mountainous. The Holy Mountain or Mountain of our God is called Mt Zion.

Now I find THAT an interesting insight I'd really like to dig into!  I have already noticed the Bible's use of "Mount Zion" is far more complex than I realized at one time.  At different times the Bible clearly  identifies the "City of David", the hilltop next to the temple mount (Mt Moriah) as "Mount Zion".  It also refers to the Heavenly Jerusalem as Mount Zion and in  one place the name is used synonymously with Mount HERMON.

Given that mountains  seem to point to governments when the  Bible uses them symbolically, I BET there's a lot more that  close study might reveal there.  Not enough hours in a day  

The fact that Mount Hermon is most likely the mount of transfiguration, Hermon most certainly seems to be a place of some significance in His mind.  He  certainly seemed to purposefully set up a challenge right  there on that mountain.

Furthermore, it is in my mind that the City of our God, the very Throne of the Divine presence, both here on earth AND in Heaven is the CENTER-STAGE of the final battle for supremacy.  The absolute FINAL End-game conflict involving humans and divine beings against the Unholy Hoards of evil.

I think the likelihood we're looking at at least two prophesied wars, and given that one seems to involve the  destruction of the beast's armies at His return, and the other at the  end of the millennium, it seems to be FATHER's "second coming" that defeats that final rebellion.  That represents the "final stage" of full restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven, when Father is coming "down" out of heaven with the New Jerusalem, the last enemy  is put under Jesus feet and Jesus returns the sovereignty back to Father with the creation/restoration of the new heavens and earth and the heavens are somehow "ported" back into earth as was the case in the Garden of Eden.  I'd have to go all over the  place to expand on that idea much, but i'm pretty confident the fire that is destined to "melt the elements with great heat" as prophesied by Peter might be the  same fire "coming down out of heaven" that destroys that final rebellion, and is probably near simultaneous with the  second resurrection mentioned in Rev 20.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Jostler

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On 9/12/2019 at 7:45 PM, Justin Adams said:

Seems like there are two separate wars.

Ezekiel 38:8, 11-12 (HCSB) — 8 After a long time you will be summoned. In the last years you will enter a land that has been restored from war and [1] regathered from many peoples to the mountains of Israel, which had long been a ruin. They were brought out from the peoples, and all of them now [2] live securely. 11 You will say, ‘I will go up against [2] a land of open villages; I will come against a tranquil people who are [2] living securely, all of them living [2] without walls and without bars or gates— 12 in order to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against ruins now inhabited and against a [1] people gathered from the nations, who have been acquiring cattle and possessions and who live at the center of the world.’

Ezekiel 38:22 (HCSB) — I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed. I will pour out torrential rain, hailstones, fire, and brimstone on him, as well as his troops and the many peoples who are with him.

AND

Ezekiel 39:20-26 (HCSB) — 20 At My table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, of mighty men and all the warriors.” 21 “I will display My glory among the nations, and all [1] the nations will see the judgment I have executed and the hand I have laid on them. 23 And [2] the nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile on account of their iniquity...25 “So this is what the Lord GOD says: Now [3] I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have compassion on the whole house of Israel... 26 They will feel remorse for, their disgrace... when they [3] live securely in their land with no one to frighten them. 22 [4] From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God.

Ezekiel 39:7, 22, 28-29 (HCSB) — 7 So I will make My holy name known among My people Israel and will no longer allow it to be profaned. Then the nations will know that I am Yahweh, the Holy One in Israel. ... 22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. ... 28 They will know that I am the LORD their God when I regather them to their own land after having exiled them among the nations. I will leave none of them behind. 29 I will no longer hide My face from them, for I will pour out My Spirit on the house of Israel.

Revelation 20:7-9 (HCSB) — 7 When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city[Jerusalem, Israel]. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

Revelation 19:17-21 (HCSB) — 17 ...an angel ... cried out in a loud voice, saying to all the birds flying high overhead, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of their riders, and the flesh of everyone, both free and slave, small and great.” 19 Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army. 20 But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

So the question is, if there are two wars, where and when do they occur?

(har megiddo) and other translational renditions, might be John's clever word-smithing that can also mean Moutain(s) of The Lord. Jerusalem, the Holy City of God. It seems it has nothing to do with Megiddo which is a plain and not mountainous. The Holy Mountain or Mountain of our God is called Mt Zion.

Furthermore, it is in my mind that the City of our God, the very Throne of the Divine presence, both here on earth AND in Heaven is the CENTER-STAGE of the final battle for supremacy.  The absolute FINAL End-game conflict involving humans and divine beings against the Unholy Hoards of evil.

I believe the battle in Ezekiel 38 is the same battle as the battle at the end of the 1000 years in Revelation 20..

The Battle in revelation 19 is the battle at the start of the 1000 years.. That is when Jesus will return and rule the earth with the Saints for 1000 years..

[Justin Adams]

I like the thoughts on this topic. Many questions still arise. If we are 'changed' as in 'the twinkling of an eye', what does that mean? Can we still procreate? Big question.

Unfortunately, we have all been indoctrinated into the Darby and RCC ideas down thru the ages. (else why do the SUN-day thing?) Early antisemitism played havoc with early writings and 'translations' (just read Augustine - yuck).

So my questions require us to to be disinterested in prior doctrines and the plethora of 'rapture' books and see it afresh. The New Testament explains much of the Tanach. And in the Tanach we see several re-purposed prophesies, like the Obadiah and other rants against Edom. Seems that Pentecost and the Cross took care of that and Edom is considered by the apostles to be 'the nations' that were disinherited at Babel and are now under the Blood of the Lamb.

We can see that the First Advent was not clear 'had they but known, they never would have killed the King of Glory' said the apostle. Quite correct. Very cryptic and only after the event can we see 'prophesy' clearly.

So not we are faced with other issues. Daniel seems to reflect Revelation (in time) and as visions are difficult, we have to 'see them' in the light of the beholder and not superimpose our techno-savvy world view on the writer.

If you put all the end-times stuff in a blender, what you are left with is I AM AND I WIN. However, because we are encouraged to study God, His Divine Council and the way He does things (Torah) then we can get some real gems of insight that 'the angels (holy ones) long to look into'. Even God's holy ones are not sure what is going on.

Just like Obadiah and other Godly Rants, did the Cross ameliorate any of Daniel? And does Revelation give us a timeline that is perhaps deliberately obtuse and might contain some red-herrings? I do not mean 'untruths' I mean misdirects to keep the powers and principalities guessing...??

P.s. there is anecdotal evidence that the church fathers got their Roman Emperors' titles  mixed up. Thus Revelation may have been written in Aramaic around 68 AD and not after the fall of Jerusalem. So for the prophesy buffs, this is a real curve-ball. Syriac (eastern Pershitta) is the earliest Revelation document that was later translated/transliterated in to Greek.
The Septuagint was translated by Hebrew scholars before the advent of Yeshua. Then later edited. It is possible to find the earlier copies but they are in university libraries and private collections. Study well. All is not as it first seems sometimes.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Justin Adams

[Sister]

18 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

So my further question, if we are 'changed' and 'transformed' to  be like Yeshua, why would sin still be a possible issue?

Hi Justin

Sin won't be possible for the resurrected saints.  They will be ruling with Christ.

During the millennium, the remnants of Israel are a different group and will be brought into the kingdom in the flesh.  Not just the remnants from the last generation, but from all generations.  Please note, concerning the older generations that have passed away, this is not a resurrection where they are "changed" to spirit. No. They are just given their flesh bodies back and the spirit of life put in them (the remnants that have died).  Of all those remnants who survived, and are risen from their graves ("chosen" by "the election of grace") not one of them will be lost.  All will be saved.  They will multiply and die blessed to the age of 100.  They will be resurrected to spirit in the 2nd resurrection.

The remnants of the gentiles who are living amongst the nations will be the survivors of Armageddon.  They are flesh.  They will not all be saved, and will go through their trials.  As new generations are born, and time goes by, people will take for granted what the Lord Jesus has done and will start doing things their own way again.  This is because sin is not destroyed yet.  After the 1000 years have expired, Satan will be let loose from his prison to stir up trouble again.  Those who took this peace for granted, and disobeyed the laws of the kingdom, will follow his man - Gog, and will be sifted out.  This is the final sifting.

 

[Justin Adams]

5 hours ago, Jostler said:

The fact that Mount Hermon is most likely the mount of transfiguration, Hermon most certainly seems to be a place of some significance in His mind.  He  certainly seemed to purposefully set up a challenge right  there on that mountain.

Oh yes. he really poked them there. Quite deliberate and telling. They were probably seething and intent on killing Him which they did, not realizing that THIS was the plan from the beginning.

Now this brings to mind further questions. The fallen ones are highly intelligent. They will not fall for this a second time.

They ain't gonna stand at the gates of hell (the underworld) with arms outstretched inviting chains and darkness.
So Yahweh again will outwit them since they obviously think they can win. It is a battle for the THRONE. For Eden. For Zion, so it is going to be very interesting to see how He does this. Plus, Yahweh/Yeshua involves humans in this great conflict. So one has to wonder at this. That is why I wonder at the two conflicts I mentioned. What was Ezekiel's true vision and how can we really parse this bearing in mind that Daniel and Revelation seem to give us some clues. Are there too many clues? Just think about the hundreds and thousands of prophesy buffs, their book and their videos. Mind boggling and mind numbing. I do not see this as an 'accident' but a carefully orchestrated disinformation campaign.

What do you think?