Two separate wars?? Your thoughts please.

[Justin Adams]

7 minutes ago, Sister said:

Are you speaking of the angels here when you say the sons of God?

'Angel' is a job description. Holy Ones are divine beings (elohim plural) or Sons of God. Angel means messenger and sometimes Messenger in the Tanach suddenly becomes God (El -haShem) in the passage. Also we see God and another (the second Yahweh) from time to time (or The Word), poorly rendered by English translations or transliterations.

Divine embodiment is seen in Jeremiah 1 where, "the Word touched my lips.."

When we look carefully, we see human-divine embodiment often in the Tanach

Edited September 15, 2019 by Justin Adams

[WilliamL]

On 9/14/2019 at 6:10 AM, Adstar said:

Jesus when he spoke to the pharisees told them we shall not be given in marriage in eternity but we would be as the Angels not procreating..

"Not procreating" is an assumption, one of many inserted into this teaching, and not necessarily valid.

Another presumption is that angels are sexless, so we will become sexless also; which again is not necessarily valid.

Dangerous to make presumptions based upon such scant evidence. Better to wait and see.

[WilliamL]

On 9/14/2019 at 2:55 AM, Justin Adams said:

I like the thoughts on this topic. Many questions still arise. If we are 'changed' as in 'the twinkling of an eye', what does that mean?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Jostler]

5 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

"Not procreating" is an assumption, one of many inserted into this teaching, and not necessarily valid.

Another presumption is that angels are sexless, so we will become sexless also; which again is not necessarily valid.

Dangerous to make presumptions based upon such scant evidence. Better to wait and see.

This is one of those "assumptions" that has been so ingrained it's very difficult to even discuss other possibilities.  I'm not likely to try to open up a discussion on this any time soon ....but... there DOES exist quite a lot of Biblical evidence that procreation will still remain as part of human experience even after the creation of the new heavens and new earth.  And in my  personal opinion, a lot of reason to believe it's such a fundamental part of humanity and God's intention in general, that it MUST be a continued  part of human existence for  all of God's plan to be fulfilled.

The conclusion that heavenly beings are genderless and don't procreate is also an assumption.  Nowhere I am aware of does the Bible say that.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Jostler

[Alive]

13 minutes ago, Jostler said:

This is one of those "assumptions" that has been so ingrained it's very difficult to even discuss other possibilities.  I'm not likely to try to open up a discussion on this any time soon ....but... there DOES exist quite a lot of Biblical evidence that procreation will still remain as part of human experience even after the creation of the new heavens and new earth.  And in my  personal opinion, a lot of reason to believe it's such a fundamental part of humanity and God's intention in general, that it MUST be a continued  part of human existence for  all of God's plan to be fulfilled.

The conclusion that heavenly beings are genderless and don't procreate is also an assumption.  Nowhere I am aware of does the Bible say that.

I agree and have believed this for a long time. I believe that we that are transformed and given immortal bodies like Christs, will not reproduce biologically, but part of our work will be to teach and 'bring up' to Christ humanity in the coming ages.

I believe the universe is vast just for this reason...I also believe there will be no end to its increase. I find this far more interesting than a nebulous hanging around in heaven. We will be able to dwell in more than one realm of existence. I look forward to seeing the third heaven and the new earth (universe).

I am content in my delusions....LOL

No--seriously in all reverence. I believe this is what our Father is up to.

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Jostler said:

  I'm not likely to try to open up a discussion on this any time soon ....but... there DOES exist quite a lot of Biblical evidence that procreation will still remain as part of human experience even after the creation of the new heavens and new earth. 

Hi Jostler

Here is where those you cited above will come from.

Zec. 14:16- And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So there will be survivors from this present world that will dwell in the Kingdom during the 1,000 yr. reign of Christ.

[Uriah]

As to the topic that started this thread, yes, there  will be two wars, a little more than a thousand yrs. apart. I take the Ez. 38 war to be shown again in Rev. 19. Simply consider the similarities between the two narratives. How both have the call to birds to feast upon mighty men/ captains etc.

The reference to Gog and Magog at the end of the 1,000 yrs. makes people think otherwise but looking at the wording and how the phrase stands alone, even hyphenated in several translations, I conclude that there is a need for clarity that is answered by seeing it as intended treated the way KJV translators did in other instances. They used italics so it wouldn't look like broken English and other reasons. The italics showed their good faith in not trying to hide anything. the could not have anticipated how we would now read things in comparison to their readings. So their skill is said to be an art as well as a science. In this vein I read Rev. 20:8 as follows.......like Gog and Magog. This I believe is the solution to the whole controversy. They did a great job in so many cases, but in this situation our reading of obsolete English translated from obsolete Greek could have used this slightest simplification.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Uriah
spelling

[Jostler]

51 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi Jostler

Here is where those you cited above will come from.

Zec. 14:16- And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So there will be survivors from this present world that will dwell in the Kingdom during the 1,000 yr. reign of Christ.

I think there's some kind of as yet undiscerned assumption that is preventing us from really communicating.  I thought that's exactly what I said in the first post dealing with "two classes" and tried to clarify in the  second after you commented on it. 

And you might notice in  this last post, I specified "new heavens and new earth" referring to after the renewal, after the Judgment, not during  the 1000 yr reign.

Are you assuming there is no difference between the 1000yr reign on this earth and the Kingdom of God fully restored? 

[Uriah]

22 hours ago, Jostler said:

I think there's some kind of as yet undiscerned assumption that is preventing us from really communicating.  I thought that's exactly what I said in the first post dealing with "two classes" and tried to clarify in the  second after you commented on it. 

And you might notice in  this last post, I specified "new heavens and new earth" referring to after the renewal, after the Judgment, not during  the 1000 yr reign.

Are you assuming there is no difference between the 1000yr reign on this earth and the Kingdom of God fully restored? 

Hi Jostler

One thing is that I remember something about (I think it was you, maybe not) had posted something about people receiving resurrection bodies without experiencing death. That is why I posted the reference to Zec. 14. These are the people who will populate the earth in the millennium, where (this very planet) it will indeed be the new heaven and new Earth. AND where Jesus will reign in His kingdom.

[Sister]

On 9/15/2019 at 10:09 PM, Justin Adams said:

'Angel' is a job description. Holy Ones are divine beings (elohim plural) or Sons of God. Angel means messenger and sometimes Messenger in the Tanach suddenly becomes God (El -haShem) in the passage. Also we see God and another (the second Yahweh) from time to time (or The Word), poorly rendered by English translations or transliterations.

Divine embodiment is seen in Jeremiah 1 where, "the Word touched my lips.."

When we look carefully, we see human-divine embodiment often in the Tanach

Hi Justin

I appreciate you telling me that but to me it is very confusing.  An angel is a messenger but also a created being.  God created trillions of angels, but not are all messengers, yet they are still called angels.  We get the jist however that that God created heavenly creatures for the heavenly realm (angels) and man for the earth.  The millennium period is not for the angels to be tested, but for man.  All the angels that followed Satan were already sifted out of heaven when Christ rose from the dead.

When you said "the sons of God" I just wanted to know if you were specifically speaking about the angels, like they are described in Genesis, and Job? or where you speaking of man? 

 

  Revelation 12:7   And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

  Revelation 12:8   And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

  Revelation 12:9   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

  Revelation 12:10   And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.