The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

  Quote

You should figure out how the church got there and when. Why say "us" when Paul says "us" and "we" are caught up before any of these things. Do you just WANT to live through God's wrath? Think about it: no water to drink - its all turned into blood - can't buy or sell- people hunting you down with one thing on your mind: force you to take the mark or take off your head, intense heat, unbearable thirst, not to mention from the trumpets, the stinging locusts that torture you. Why would ANYONE desire these things? God has designed all these things for those that hate Him, not for His kids. 

It must be terrible to think that we must suffer for Christ's sake?  You must think that it's us who chooses who goes through what?  Who does the separating of the two groups, the small flock and the large flock?  Is it not Christ who decides?

All we can do is try and worship to the best of our ability by keeping all of Christ's commandments, lest we be put through a fire and forced to wash our robes white...because they should already be found white at the time of the sealing.   Christ opened the door to us, so that we could change for him, and become holy, not hypocrites, and arguing against everything that the Word spoke.

 

We DO suffer for Christ's sake: the devil hated Him so he hates us. In way, I think people WILL chose: if they insist the rapture is at the end, they are not going to be expecting Him. If they are not expecting Him, from Hebrews 9,  I expect they will be left behind. God tells us He, Jesus, will appear to those who are LOOKING for Him - expecting Him. 

Can you honestly tell me you are expecting Him tomorrow or tonight? How can you when you believe you will see the Beast first?  Make no mistake, posttribbers, prewrathers, any other people that are not looking for Christ and expecting Him any time may well be left behind.  They will have chosen to put their faith in a rapture that is misplaced. Everything a believe gets from heaven they get by heaven's exchange: FAITH. I see no reason why the rapture will be any different. If people put their faith in a mythical rapture at the end of the 70th week, how could Jesus use that faith for the real rapture before the 70th week? Maybe He can. I hope He can. But I doubt it.

Is it not Christ who decides?  No, WE decide: first be leaving the world and becoming born again. Then by expecting Him.  

[Sister]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you notice that there is only one Coming?  No, I noticed there are TWO more comings: one shown in 1 thes. 4, and another shown in Matthew 24 and in Rev. 19.  Different events happen at these different comings. Did you notice that you can't get to the marriage and supper if there is only one coming?

Maybe you didn't notice that the Coming is at the End of the tribulation?  That would be His third coming - to Armageddon.  Didn't you notice there is a second coming at the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord, shown in 1 thes. 4 - and the effects of this coming shown in the great crowd in chapter 7? Also shown as the 'departing" as in "taken out of the way" in 2 thes.? 

This is a strange doctrine you hold to?  Confusion.  Three comings?  How can I take this conversation seriously?

This is what you miss;

All the saints will be picked up to meet Christ and 'together' they will meet the Lord in the air.  He's not in heaven ok, but has come down from heaven.  He's in the clouds, ....in earth.  Christ has just not struck Babylon yet, he just has his saints with him, and he's in the air.

 

Then he comes down to the Mt Olives?  His feet touches ground.

Who are the only ones with him coming down?

Obviously it's his 'firstfruits', or else they would not be called the firstfruits.  They are the first of the fruits.  The best of the crop.

These are the ones that are invited to the supper of the Lamb.  For they are with him, observing what he will do next.  From the ground level.  They are there with him in the midst of it all.

These are the firstfruits because out of the whole Christian land, these have made their robes white already, ....at the time of the sealing....before the tribulation even began.  These are his loyal ones of the end times, out of the last generation of all believers, these are the ones that followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes.  It's why they were sealed, and it's not a big number.  The elect of God and the Lamb.  They followed the Word of God, and they were fed, having access to the water of the fountain of life.   You miss this, the Lamb has already fed them.  They have already received the truth. 

Now these 144K are the cream of the crop.  What you say contradicts what we are shown here.  You say the large multitude who were not fed, nor given access to the fountains of water of life will be the first? 

There's only two groups iamlamad.  The small flock 144,000, and the large flock.  Seeing as the large multitude 'came out of great tribulation', it makes no sense to say that they will be 'raptured' before that great tribulation even starts?  God gave us a brain to use.  We have to use good reasoning here, not imaginations.  Everything must harmonise with what Jesus is feeding us with.  If not, we are being fed by another shepherd who will lead us into a ditch.

Jesus comes with his reward on the 7th trumpet.  His reward is with him.  He's bringing it with him.  We can't claim the prize before he comes, or we might find ourselves red faced.  You are doing this.  It's not good to be self righteous.  We can have hope, but not pride, nor lift ourselves up above all others.  We must take the humble approach.  We are all in this together, and we are all brothers.  Even the apostles, knowing they wouldn't be here at the end times, talked as if they were going through it with us, to encourage us because we are all one.  And if one suffers, all suffer until the suffering has ended.  Knowing what they knew, they still did not lift themselves up above all.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Sister

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

This is a strange doctrine you hold to?  Confusion.  Three comings?  How can I take this conversation seriously?

This is what you miss;

All the saints will be picked up to meet Christ and 'together' they will meet the Lord in the air.  He's not in heaven ok, but has come down from heaven.  He's in the clouds, ....in earth.  Christ has just not struck Babylon yet, he just has his saints with him, and he's in the air.

 

Then he comes down to the Mt Olives?  His feet touches ground.

Who are the only ones with him coming down?

Obviously it's his 'firstfruits', or else they would not be called the firstfruits.  They are the first of the fruits.  The best of the crop.

These are the ones that are invited to the supper of the Lamb.  For they are with him, observing what he will do next.  From the ground level.  They are there with him in the midst of it all.

These are the firstfruits because out of the whole Christian land, these have made their robes white already, ....at the time of the sealing....before the tribulation even began.  These are his loyal ones of the end times, out of the last generation of all believers, these are the ones that followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes.  It's why they were sealed, and it's not a big number.  The elect of God and the Lamb.  They followed the Word of God, and they were fed, having access to the water of the fountain of life.   You miss this, the Lamb has already fed them.  They have already received the truth. 

Now these 144K are the cream of the crop.  What you say contradicts what we are shown here.  You say the large multitude who were not fed, nor given access to the fountains of water of life will be the first? 

There's only two groups iamlamad.  The small flock 144,000, and the large flock.  Seeing as the large multitude 'came out of great tribulation', it makes no sense to say that they will be 'raptured' before that great tribulation even starts?  God gave us a brain to use.  We have to use good reasoning here, not imaginations.  Everything must harmonise with what Jesus is feeding us with.  If not, we are being fed by another shepherd who will lead us into a ditch.

Jesus comes with his reward on the 7th trumpet.  His reward is with him.  He's bringing it with him.  We can't claim the prize before he comes, or we might find ourselves red faced.  You are doing this.  It's not good to be self righteous.  We can have hope, but not pride, nor lift ourselves up above all others.  We must take the humble approach.  We are all in this together, and we are all brothers.  Even the apostles, knowing they wouldn't be here at the end times, talked as if they were going through it with us, to encourage us because we are all one.  And if one suffers, all suffer until the suffering has ended.  Knowing what they knew, they still did not lift themselves up above all.

Sister, what you write is like a fairy tale. Why? Because there is no scriptural basis for it. We can't form doctrine from imagination! We can't form doctrine from isolated verses pulled out of context either. Doctrine should be formed by comparing theories from one verse with every other end time verse to see if that theory fits and can become doctrine.  Next. Doctrine cannot be formed, and then Revelation rearranged to fit. This is what you and many others here do. Doctrine must be formed from Revelation AS WRITTEN. Neither you nor anyone else has any authorization to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory.

Case in point?

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. [at this time, the "great whore" is judged. That means finished. Done. Complete. Where is Jesus? Still in heaven.]

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. [notice that the great multitude is already in heaven. How and when did they get here in heaven? First the great crowd too large to number: chapter 7. Then the 144,000 around the midpoint of the week. Then the Old Testament saints with the Two witnesses and the Beheaded: at the 7th vial that ends the week. Where is Jesus? In heaven. He has not left yet.]

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [notice: the time is NOW, not later: it has come. The wedding is taking place right here at this verse - IN HEAVEN - not later on somewhere else. In other words, before you get to verse 9, the wedding is finished. 

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [notice, John uses white for righteousness. 17 times in Revelation John uses white. And all 17 times it is to represent righteousness. Therefore the first seal cannot possibly be the Antichrist. I guess we could say they all have new wedding garments. Where is Jesus: here in heaven leading the marriage and supper.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. [notice: the wedding or marriage is now OVER: now it is time for the marriage supper. The ceremony ALWAYS comes before the supper. Where is Jesus: here in heaven leading the marriage and supper.]

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. [notice, still time for the supper in heaven: it may go one for days which would be typical of a Jewish wedding feast. Where is Jesus? Still in heaven. The Marriage and supper will be in heaven."]

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [notice: the marriage and supper are now over. It just might be 30 days after the 7th vial that ended the week. Now, after the marriage and supper, Jesus is ready to descend to Armageddon.]

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [notice: the church will make up one of the armies. Perhaps the Old Testament saints will make up another army.  The FIRSTFRUITS will surely be among them. PEOPLE as well as angels are returning from heaven, back to earth. It may be at this time that Jesus will send out angels to gather together the "elect" of Israel from both heaven and earth, and take them all back to Israel. But that may be after Armageddon.]

"Obviously it's his 'firstfruits', or else they would not be called the firstfruits" WHY are the 144,000 called "firstfruits?" Because they are the first descendants of Jacob to receive their resurrection bodies (with the exception, perhaps,  of the elders that Jesus raised when He raised - if indeed those people received resurrection bodies at that time.)

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [notice: this is Armageddon. It is AFTER "the great whore" was defeated: remember, that was before the marriage and supper.] 

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. [Some people are so far off from truth, they claim this feast of birds is the marriage supper! Can you imagine anything more silly?]

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [Armageddon - NOT the Great Whore being destroyed.]

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

[Notice: the 7th trumpet was sounded way back at the MIDPOINT of the week. Jesus does not come at the 7th trumpet. That is just another MYTH people come up with - because they imagine John's God given chronology needs some rearranging.  How silly is that? God Himself did not know what order these things would take place? NEVER!  The trumpets sound in the FIRST HALF of the week. 

Note: from this text we really don't know the exact moment He will touch down: John did not see it so did not write it. It could be before Armageddon, but I suspect after.

Christ has just not struck Babylon yet  MYTH: does not fit the text.

These are the firstfruits because out of the whole Christian land, these have made their robes white already, ....at the time of the sealing....before the tribulation even began.   Myth: does not fit the text.

You miss this, the Lamb has already fed them.  If you cannot back this up with scripture, it is MYTH.

There's only two groups...  The small flock 144,000, and the large flock.  This  is yet another MYTH. Jesus was the very first human to receive a resurrection body. Next will be the church at the pretrib rapture. Next will be the 144,000 seen in heaven just after the midpoint of the week (chapter 14). (This is two groups) Next will be the Old Testament saints, with the Two Witnesses and those beheaded: this is after the 70th week has closed with the 7th vial.) Let's count: 1: the church. 2. the 144,000. 3. The Old Testament saints with the Beheaded saints. At a minimum then, there will be three groups. I know, John did not mention the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. He did not see them raised. But they WILL BE raised. We see them - along with the church - seated on thrones judging in chapter 20. 

"Everything must harmonize with what Jesus is feeding us with." Rather, everything just harmonize with the ENTIRE SCRIPTURE, Genesis to Revelation. We cannot ignore Paul in our end time doctrine.  He wrote of the church. If people build their entire end time doctrine from the gospel's they will be in error. 

Seeing as the large multitude 'came out of great tribulation', it makes no sense to say that they will be 'raptured' before that great tribulation even starts? What do you think Paul meant when He said that God would set no appointments with His wrath? It will be those left behind that get wrath. What do you think Paul meant by mentioning the Day of the Lord right after His classic rapture verse of 1 Thes. 4:16 & 17? It is because the rapture comes first, then instantly followed by wrath: the DAY of His wrath or the DAY of the Lord.  How can anyone possibly teach end-times and Ignore Paul?

Jesus comes with his reward on the 7th trumpet. This is MYTH: John shows no coming here. It is the midpoint of the week. You are rearranging Revelation and your theory will certainly be proven wrong. Did you not understand that those verses about judging and rewards are a prophecy (telling the future) given by the elders? The rewards and judging are shown in chapter 20.  Be clear on this: the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and what REALLY happens at the 7th trumpet is that the 6000 years of man's rule over earth ends and Satan, who usurped Adam's 6000 year lease suddenly as NO LEGAL HOLD to anything: so the kingdoms of the world are trasferred from Satan to Jesus Christ. THERE IS NO COMING at the midpoint. Also the 7th trumpet is the signal for Michael to go to war with Satan. He lost his hold on earth, so is cast down. 

You are doing this.  This is just more myth: you disagree with me and what I write, so automatically I am wrong - when in truth, it is you who are mistaken. Your theories do not follow the text. You must rearrange Revelation to fit. This is a guarantee your theory will be proven wrong. Sister, who has ever given you or anyone else the right to rearrange Revelation to fit some theory? 

Suggestion: wouldn't it be wiser to form your doctrine from Revelation AS WRITTEN? Then you would be right. 

By the way, Jesus came once: that would be 1 (one) coming.

Paul tells us of another coming just before wrath. That would be 2 (two) comings.

Jesus and John tells us of another coming AFTER wrath - after the entire 70th week, That would be 3 (three) comings. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by iamlamad

[Sister]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. [at this time, the "great whore" is judged. That means finished. Done. Complete. Where is Jesus? Still in heaven.]

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

iamlamad

Those voices John 'heard' in heaven are 'the prayers of the saints'  John didn't see them there, but 'heard' their voices.

 

Revelation 19:1   And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19:2   For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Revelation 19:3   And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

(what's this smoke?)

Revelation 19:4   And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:5   And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Revelation 19:6   And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

Now compare;

Revelation 8:1   And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Revelation 8:2   And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:3   And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4   And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Revelation 8:5   And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

 

So what smoke rose up forever and ever as stated in Rev 19:3?

It's the smoke of the incense mixed with the prayers of the saints  This is what John HEARD.  Their prayers.  Their glorifying.

And it's at the 7th seal.

Babylon has just been judged. She is guilty.  She has gone through the first 6 plagues, but the 7th plague, which is the 3rd woe is coming.  Now Christ will finish them off. 

Back to Rev 19.  continued.....

 Revelation 19:7   Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

  Revelation 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

  Revelation 19:9   And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Do you see this?  his wife has made herself ready.  She hasn't got fine linen on yet, but is just about to receive soon.  Those who are blessed to be 'called' to the marriage supper of the Lamb are about to 'be called'

So, the Lambs wife is ready, but just wait, one more thing to do first;

Revelation 19:11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12   His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14   And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16   And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17   And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
 

Obviously you can see that Christ has not finished off Babylon when John 'heard' those voices in heaven, because Christ comes to do this in Rev 19:11.  Those voices in heaven were just the prayers of the saints.  They are not physically there, and it's only their prayers and glorifying that John could 'hear'.  John never said he 'saw' them.

Rev 19:3 is the smoking gun. 

Revelation 19:3   And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Why would the smoke of their prayers be be rising up if the saints are already there in heaven?

Because they are not there yet, and now God is going to mix their prayers (those voices) with fire and throw it back on to the earth.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Sister

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

Those voices John 'heard' in heaven are 'the prayers of the saints'  John didn't see them there, but 'heard' their voices.

 

Revelation 19:1   And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19:2   For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Revelation 19:3   And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

(what's this smoke?)

Revelation 19:4   And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:5   And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Revelation 19:6   And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

Now compare;

Revelation 8:1   And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Revelation 8:2   And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 8:3   And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4   And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Revelation 8:5   And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

 

So what smoke rose up forever and ever as stated in Rev 19:3?

It's the smoke of the incense mixed with the prayers of the saints  This is what John HEARD.  Their prayers.  Their glorifying.

And it's at the 7th seal.

Babylon has just been judged. She is guilty.  She has gone through the first 6 plagues, but the 7th plague, which is the 3rd woe is coming.  Now Christ will finish them off. 

Back to Rev 19.  continued.....

 Revelation 19:7   Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

  Revelation 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

  Revelation 19:9   And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Do you see this?  his wife has made herself ready.  She hasn't got fine linen on yet, but is just about to receive soon.  Those who are blessed to be 'called' to the marriage supper of the Lamb are about to 'be called'

So, the Lambs wife is ready, but just wait, one more thing to do first;

Revelation 19:11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12   His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14   And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16   And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17   And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
 

Obviously you can see that Christ has not finished off Babylon when John 'heard' those voices in heaven, because Christ comes to do this in Rev 19:11.  Those voices in heaven were just the prayers of the saints.  They are not physically there, and it's only their prayers and glorifying that John could 'hear'.  John never said he 'saw' them.

Rev 19:3 is the smoking gun. 

Revelation 19:3   And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Why would the smoke of their prayers be be rising up if the saints are already there in heaven?

Because they are not there yet, and now God is going to mix their prayers (those voices) with fire and throw it back on to the earth.

I wonder if it is possible for anyone on this thread to keep a verse in its context?  Let me show you something:

Matthew 27:5.....And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself. 
Luke 10:37..........Then said Jesus ... Go, and do thou likewise.
1 Thes 5:18......... In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

These three verses SEEM to tell a story, but the story is not at all the truth. Yet, when people pull verses out of their context, this is just what they are doing: creating nonsense. 

For example, the events of the 7th seal can IN NO POSSIBLE WAY align in time with the events of Rev. 19. The 7th seal STARTS the 70th week, while the events of Rev. 19 come after the END the week. 

So when you say "compare" and list verses in chapter 19 to compare with verses in chapter 8, I know you lack understanding. I know your theory will be wrong.  These are of events that happen over 7 years apart. It this were not sad, it would be funny - as if God cannot have more than one kind of smoke. 

Please, pay close attention:  ...he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

WHOSE smoke? WHOSE smoke rose up forever and ever? READ the CONTEXT!  It is the smoke of the burning of the "great whore." "Her" a pronoun: what is the antecedent? We back up and see what "her" refers to: and we find "the great whore." The great whore is not praying! 

 

So what smoke rose up forever and ever as stated in Rev 19:3?  It's the smoke of the incense mixed with the prayers of the saints  NO! It is the smoke of her burning. Did you forget the city was set on fire? Where there is fire, there is smoke. 

 

Rev. 18:8  Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

And it's at the 7th seal. Yes, of course there are events at the 7th seal, but certainly not any events written in chapter 19. Your theory is myth. 

John didn't see them there, but 'heard' their voices. The people are in heaven. John was in heaven and heard their voices in heaven. That was my whole point, they are IN HEAVEN for the marriage and supper. 

Babylon has just been judged.   You said before that Babylon is judged when Jesus returns. Can you please make up your mind? 

She has gone through the first 6 plagues, but the 7th plague, which is the 3rd woe is coming. Why do you always get things mixed up? Get this straight! The woes are the last three trumpet judgments before and at the MIDPOINT of the week. The third woe comes from the 7th trumpet, but it is when Satan is cast down full of fury: It is written, "woe" unto those on earth...   This is at the MIDPOINT of the week. We are in chapter 19. Here in Chaapter 19 the week is OVER, PAST, HISTORY, DONE WITH. Yes, even every bowl and plague are finished and history at this time. Next, the Plagues come AFTER the woes. the plagues come with the vials.  

This is what John HEARD.  Their prayers.  Their glorifying. And it's at the 7th seal. No, it is after the week. You just pulled verses out of context so it would appear it is at the 7th seal. Sister, ANY TIME someone tries to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory, that theory will be proven WRONG. Rev. 19 is after all seals, then after all trumpets, then after all vials with plagues. It is after the entire week has finished.  Why would ANYONE try to pull verses out of context to prove a point?

Do you see this?  No, I certainly don't. It seems people on this thread can't follow a text and just take it as written. They have to morph the text to fit a theory. How silly is that? 

This is truth: Try it again:

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [notice: the time is NOW, not later: it has come. The wedding is taking place right here at this verse - IN HEAVEN - not later on somewhere else. In other words, before you get to verse 9, the wedding is finished. The Bride has made herself ready. That means is IS READY and before we get to verse 9, the marriage ceremony is over, done, finished, complete.  Verse 6 is explaining part of the Bride making herself ready. ]

She hasn't got fine linen on yet, but is just about to receive soon. [This verse is written after the marriage ceremony verse, but it is describing the preparation for the marriage, not for the supper. It WAS GRANTED (actually it will be in the future) meaning, for the marriage she had on the fine linen: "she has made herself ready: INCLUDING the gown. Why would you imagine a marriage when the bride puts on her gown AFTER the ceremony? That is just silly. ]

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [Pay attention!  it WAS GRANTED - before the ceremony]

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. [notice: the wedding or marriage is now OVER: now it is time for the marriage supper. The ceremony ALWAYS comes before the supper. Where is Jesus: here in heaven leading the marriage and supper.]

Do you see this? The marriage supper always comes AFTER the ceremony. Therefore, when John mentions it is time for the supper, the ceremony is OVER. John's point, and the Holy Spirit's point is that this takes place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. You cannot have it in heaven, for it blows your theory out of the water, so to speak: so you must rearrange it to fit your theory. You are caught. 

So, the Lambs wife is ready, but just wait, one more thing to do first; Revelation 19:11  No, at verse 11 the wedding and supper are FINISHED.You are trying to change the text to fit your theory. What? Do you imagine that the marriage supper is for the birds? Please don't tell me that is what you believe! 

Obviously you can see that Christ has not finished off Babylon when John 'heard' those voices in heaven, because Christ comes to do this in Rev 19:11. This is just MORE MYTH! Read it again!

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. [at this time, the "great whore" is judged. That means finished. Done. Complete. Where is Jesus? Still in heaven.]

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. This is proof positive that verse 2 is telling the truth: it is the smoke of Babylon's burning. Chapters 17 & 18 tell of her COMPLETE demise. I undertand, this does not fit your theory, so you will rearrange some more and try to make it fit. WHAM! BAM! Do you know what that sound is? Someone trying to drive round pegs into square holes. Someone trying to force Revelation to fit their personal theory. Sister, you absolutely amaze me with your desire to rearrange revelation to fit your theory. Have you ever tried just forming your doctrine from Revelation AS WRITTEN? You missed it on every point. Big time missing. 

 

 

[The Light]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

[Notice: the 7th trumpet was sounded way back at the MIDPOINT of the week. Jesus does not come at the 7th trumpet. That is just another MYTH people come up with - because they imagine John's God given chronology needs some rearranging.  How silly is that? God Himself did not know what order these things would take place? NEVER!  The trumpets sound in the FIRST HALF of the week. 

 

If Revelation is in chronological order, like you claim, how is the 7th trumpet sounding in the middle of the week and yet we see those that come out of great tribulation clear back in Rev 7.

Rev 7

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Houston, HE has a problem!

[Sister]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I wonder if it is possible for anyone on this thread to keep a verse in its context?  Let me show you something:

Matthew 27:5.....And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself. 
Luke 10:37..........Then said Jesus ... Go, and do thou likewise.
1 Thes 5:18......... In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

These three verses SEEM to tell a story, but the story is not at all the truth. Yet, when people pull verses out of their context, this is just what they are doing: creating nonsense. 

I am not mixing apples with oranges here.  You did with your example above.

John did not 'see' those saints in heaven.  He only 'heard' voices.  You have to read carefully, to pick up the clues. 

I noticed in most of Johns visions, he always saw things, but this time he only 'heard' those voices.  If he didn't 'see' the resurrected saints, but could only 'hear' their voices, then that mean't they were not there just yet, ....but that sound was coming out of somewhere right?  Somewhere in heaven.

And then it clicked, ...it was those prayers of the saints.  Their voices.  The smoke that rose up is the same smoke as spoken in Rev 8.  It was rising up from the earth, not from heaven, because there is nothing higher than heaven, and the saints are still below, in the grave, and on the earth under heaven.

It's not the smoke of Babylon burning, or the smoke coming out of the bottomless pit, or of fire and brimstone, but this type of smoke;

Revelation 8:4   And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

I am comparing oranges with oranges here, not oranges with apples.

This is how the truth is found iamalamd.  Jesus will bring to our rememberance what he has previously told us, so that we can use to interpret his Word when we need to understand something new he is showing us, or something old.

I remembered that smoke.  I always think about that smoke of the prayers of the saints.  I love the way God uses metaphors to show us something, and in this case, he is letting us know that all our prayers have been collected, preserved,  heard, and he will give revenge for all at the same time when he deems it ready.  Our prayers are not just hot air, but precious to him.  He will act in our defense.

God's wife is Zion, his City, and the Lamb's wife is 'the righteousness' the 'saints' are 'wearing' of 'that City'

Revelation 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

should be.....arrayed in fine linen

should be....arrayed in fine linen

should be...arrayed in fine linen

not 'was' arrayed in fine linen, because there's one last thing Christ has to do, and that is to finish of Babylon completely.

Revelation 19:9   And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Now he's going to call them to the great supper, because he's just about to destroy all those armies who are gathering against him.  Now is that great big resurrection day here...the one all the saints have been waiting for.  Now is their reward coming.

So Christ hasn't killed those armies yet imalamad!  He's going to do it NOW.  Babylon is not fully judged yet, but will be NOW.

The 7th trump is about to blow.

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Sister
shortened post because it was too long

[Sister]

And the saints are not following Christ out of heaven, because they are still down below, and Christ is coming with his angels who will do the harvesting of the saints.

Matthew 13:39   The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13:49   So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

 

Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

 Matthew 24:31   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Matthew 25:31   When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

Mark 8:38   Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

  Mark 13:27   And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 Luke 9:26   For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

So hopefully you can see that when Jesus comes riding on that white horse prepared for battle, he is not coming with his saints, but coming with his angels, and when he comes to the clouds, he will send his angels to gather his elect.

All is done in order.

 

THEN, he will come down to the MT OF OLIVES with those who are called to the great supper, and who might these be?  You think it's everyone?

Jude 1:14   And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
 

He's not coming down to Mt Olives with millions and millions of saints, but those saints who are only in the 'tens of thousands'.  He's coming with his 144K.  His firstfruits, the small flock, not the great multitude.  These 144K are the ones who are called to the great supper, because they have followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes.  And they, will witness only this blood bath about to come.  These are the first fruits of the Lamb and of God.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Sister

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Sister said:

I am not mixing apples with oranges here.  You did with your example above.

John did not 'see' those saints in heaven.  He only 'heard' voices.  You have to read carefully, to pick up the clues. 

I noticed in most of Johns visions, he always saw things, but this time he only 'heard' those voices.  If he didn't 'see' the resurrected saints, but could only 'hear' their voices, then that mean't they were not there just yet, ....but that sound was coming out of somewhere right?  Somewhere in heaven.

And then it clicked, ...it was those prayers of the saints.  Their voices.  The smoke that rose up is the same smoke as spoken in Rev 8.  It was rising up from the earth, not from heaven, because there is nothing higher than heaven, and the saints are still below, in the grave, and on the earth under heaven.

It's not the smoke of Babylon burning, or the smoke coming out of the bottomless pit, or of fire and brimstone, but this type of smoke;

Revelation 8:4   And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

I am comparing oranges with oranges here, not oranges with apples.

This is how the truth is found iamalamd.  Jesus will bring to our rememberance what he has previously told us, so that we can use to interpret his Word when we need to understand something new he is showing us, or something old.

I remembered that smoke.  I always think about that smoke of the prayers of the saints.  I love the way God uses metaphors to show us something, and in this case, he is letting us know that all our prayers have been collected, preserved,  heard, and he will give revenge for all at the same time when he deems it ready.  Our prayers are not just hot air, but precious to him.  He will act in our defense.

God's wife is Zion, his City, and the Lamb's wife is 'the righteousness' the 'saints' are 'wearing' of 'that City'

Revelation 19:8   And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

should be.....arrayed in fine linen

should be....arrayed in fine linen

should be...arrayed in fine linen

not 'was' arrayed in fine linen, because there's one last thing Christ has to do, and that is to finish of Babylon completely.

Revelation 19:9   And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Now he's going to call them to the great supper, because he's just about to destroy all those armies who are gathering against him.  Now is that great big resurrection day here...the one all the saints have been waiting for.  Now is their reward coming.

So Christ hasn't killed those armies yet imalamad!  He's going to do it NOW.  Babylon is not fully judged yet, but will be NOW.

The 7th trump is about to blow.

 

I give up.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

If Revelation is in chronological order, like you claim, how is the 7th trumpet sounding in the middle of the week and yet we see those that come out of great tribulation clear back in Rev 7.

Rev 7

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Houston, HE has a problem!

No problem! Just because we see these two words together: "great" and "tribulation" does not mean they all have to be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. In this case, chapter 7, it is the entire church age. These people came out of the world, one by one, the great, 2000 years of tribulation, by hearing the gospel, accepting it, and becoming born again.  (John is not telling us how they got from earth to heaven suddenly. He is telling us how they got added to this group. It was one by one, over time and continually, to keep with the TENSE of the Greek verb.)