The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, breathoflife said:

that certainly sounds good if we ignore Scripture. I would love following what is written but that is not what you do. The Day of the Lord begins at the beginning of the last week of years and culminates 7 years later with the physical return  of the King. If it is over 7 years later then the 70 Weeks of Years is a worthless prophecy 70 Weeks of Years 490 years are decreed for your people and your city. When the Lord returns it is because the faithful remnant is about to be destroyed and the Lord descends on the Mount of Olives opening a valley for the remnant to escape through. From this point on the only Jewish people on the entire face of the earth are the remnant. From this Day of the Lord until a 1,000 tears later it is apostate Gentiles who when Satan is released  are deceived by him and who come against the royal nation of priests the remnant has become. With the Gentile armies coming against the remnant of Israel the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord takes place. Satan is defeated cast into the Lake of Fire. The defeated Gentile nations become a feast for the birds of the air. This is how the time of the end plays out. 

P.S. don't forget that the Bride is in heaven preparing herself as a Bride for the entire seven tear period you are speaking about. We are removed in chapter 4 when we exit here through The Door after He calls us up there. 

You write myths. Go back and read it again: 4:1 is JOHN called up, not the church. And the time is 95 AD, not in our future.  The theory that the rapture is in Rev. 4:1 has been debunked.

By the time the Bride is caught up, she is prepared. The 7 years will be years of rejoicing.

One thing you have right: the Day of the Lord starts before the 70th week starts. The DAY begins at the 6th seal, and the WEEK starts with the 7th seal. Don't doubt me on this. I don't think THE DAY ends at His coming. I think it continues on.

When the Lord returns it is because the faithful remnant is about to be destroyed  That would be THE JEWS, not the church.

From this point on the only Jewish people on the entire face of the earth are the remnant.  I don't believe this either. What about those that fled into the wilderness: they are a separate group. Both groups are saved by His coming.

From this Day of the Lord until a 1,000 tears later it is apostate Gentiles who when Satan is released  are deceived by him  How do you know that some of the deceived are not descendants of Jacob? John does not tell us. You are guessing.

With the Gentile armies coming against the remnant of Israel the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord takes place.  Do you imagine the "great and terrible Day of the Lord" is a different time that just "the Day of the Lord?"

The defeated Gentile nations become a feast for the birds of the air.   Show us the scripture for this.

I think you need more study.

[douggg]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Apparently they were that important to God. After all, He had Daniel write chapter 8 about it, and about Antiochus.

The text of Revelation 17:10 indicates 7 kings, not kingdoms.

It is simple:

 The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

¹⁰ And there are seven kings

The mountains are the empires of the 7 kings. Kings usually have empires.

It doesn't mean 7 kings of 7 different empires.   But 7 kings of one empire, just as there have been 45 presidents of the United States, for example.

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

How do you arrive at the notion that the beast from the earh equates to the false prophet? 

Hi Da Puppers,

 

That the the second beast is the false prophet can be verified by him doing miracles in the presence of the first beast in both Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 13:14.

 

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Edited October 6, 2019 by douggg

[wingnut-]

On 9/30/2019 at 2:13 PM, iamlamad said:

I have always been puzzled by the experts' theories of the 5 fallen heads as Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. This does not seem to fit Daniel 2 or Daniel 7. I am just thinking out loud and looking for help.

In Daniel 7 the first beast was a Lion with one head: perhaps to represent Babylon then and the land area today.

The second beast was a bear with one head: perhaps to represent Medo-Persia then and the land area today.

The third beast was a leopard with four heads: perhaps to represent Alexander's four Generals: Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy, Seleucus

The fourth beast was a fearsome beast with one head: to represent Ancient Rome and then perhaps the Antichrist Beast of Revelation.

When I count up these heads, I get seven heads. 

Rev. 17:³ So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

It would seem that the 7 heads in Revelation should match the 7 heads of Daniel. Perhaps the "heads" here and "Kings" of verse 10 of whom 5 have fallen, represent more the empire rather than a specific king. "Fallen" then may be telling us that the empire was conquered. 

When we look at Daniel 2, the great image, it has Babylon, Medo-Persia (two arms and chest), belly of Brass for the Grecian empire, legs of iron to represent Rome. This really does not fit the heads of chapter 7. The belly would have to have four heads. However, this image is what gets destroyed in the end. I would seem Egypt and Assyria are on end time empires. 

Any thoughts? 

 

I think it starts with the dragon (satan) in Revelation 12.  He already has the 7 heads and 10 horns before he is cast down to the earth.  This would indicate these are spiritual beings first and foremost.  Consider from the book of Daniel, where the angel tells Daniel that he has been contending with the prince of Persia and remarks that only Michael comes to help.  I don't see that as an earthly struggle, but one in the spiritual realm, so the prince of Persia spoken of is related to the wicked one.  The map of today is different than the one back at that time, so it is hard to say if the prince of Persia would still be of Persia today, or some other nation that was part of that empire at that time.

God bless

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, douggg said:

Hi Da Puppers,

 

That the the second beast is the false prophet can be verified by him doing miracles in the presence of the first beast in both Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 13:14.

 

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

I agree with Douggg here.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, douggg said:

It doesn't mean 7 kings of 7 different empires.   But 7 kings of one empire, just as there have been 45 presidents of the United States, for example.

I don't think so: in that case there would have been 1 mountain and 7 kings. 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

You said: 

WHEN is this attack? What chapter is it in? The week ENDS at the 16th chapter. This is either very late in the week or after the week has ended. It is still the Day of the Lord.  Can you find an attack on Jerusalem in chapters 6 through 15? If you find it, show us!

This is  irrelevant to Rev 17 following after chapter 16 because Rev 17 is a time stamoed picture of  "the judgment of the great whore".

Are you backing away from the premise that the scarlet colored beast represents only a single kingdom?   If so, thete is no reason to discuss this any further.   But if not,  Reg 17 clearly says that this time stamp of Jerusalem's judgment is when the 6th king is in power.  Reiterating,  it says 5 KINGS are fallen,  and one is,  the sixth one.   It further states that the 7th one is to come (for a short space).  AND it says that the 10 kings have not received their kingdom [they do not have crowns].  If you can't see that this is before the 7th king arises,  your eyes are closed. 

Concerning the notion that a beast represents only a kingdom OR both a kingdom and the king,  you are using the notion that the premise (is the beast a man)  is true to prove that the premise oss true,  i.e. circular reasoning. 

Let me explain.   You are assuming that when the scriptures conjunctively refers to the beast AND the false,  that it is automatically referring to two "people" to then prove that other uses of the beast is referring to both, king and kingdom.   How do you arrive at the notion that the beast from the earh equates to the false prophet?  Does the beast from the earth [the lamb with two horns]  have more than one head?   Is it ever unequivocably stated that they are one and the same?   No,  on both accounts.   The "beast" from the earth is a lamb with one head and two horns.    What do we conclude here?  This beast is one kingdom,  with a co - recency of two kings.   We only have to look to the example found in Daniel 8 of the ram with two horns.   There it says that the 2 horns represent the 2 kings of Media and Persia.   From that point on [Rev 13] there is no referring to the single king of this beast from the earth.   This is why the kings of this kingdom (beast from the earth] are collectively referred to as the beast and false prophet.   Remember our original premise:  The 7th & 8th kings of the scarlet colored beast (kingdom)  are ruling over the same kingdom.   The beast from the sea and the beast from the earth are the same kingdoms... before and after the judgment of the great whore.   After this judgment,  it is ruled by two kings,  referred to as the beast and false prophet.   Their conjunctive use together is not to say the king and the Kingdom,  but the two kings of this one kingdom.   I know that this sounds contradictory,  but it's not.   It's referring to both of them as kings.   He does not refer to the "beast and false prophet" AS the beast from the sea AND the false prophet.  Collectively used,  the idea of beast used as a kingdom is excluded.  Therefore in that instance (beast & false prophet), beast is not used to refer to both the king and the Kingdom. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

⁹ And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

¹⁰ And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Seven heads = seven mountain kingdoms

Seven heads  = seven kings; each with a kingdom.

Each mountain kingdom had or has a king.

For example: Egypt (Fallen) - Assyria (Fallen)  - Babylon (Fallen)  - Medo-Persia (Fallen)  - Greece (Fallen) Rome "is" in John's day. The 7th is future to us.

Note carefully, the 7th is future. The 7th is what John saw and wrote about in chapters 13 through 16: the kingdom of the Beast and False Prophet -  which of course is also future.

John carefully describes what will happen during the last half of the week in chapters 11 through 16, with the Beast coming on the scene in chapter 13.

Time will pass from chapter 13 to chapter 16, as the time comes for God to pour out the vials of His wrath as judgment and to shorten those days of GT.

Finally the vials are poured out, the days of GT end, and the 7th vile ends the week: chapter 16. However, the Beast and false prophet are still alive, Jesus remains in heaven, and God is paying back "Babylon" (Jerusalem) for deceiving the entire world.  This pay back begins with the great earthquake at the 7th vial. Have the nations of the world sent their armies yet - or have the armies arrived in Israel yet? Are they there in Israel when the earthquake hits? I don't know because John does not tell us.

What we DO know is that before Jesus descends, the armies of the world will have arrived and will have attacked Israel and Jerusalem. At the moment Jesus descends, the combined armies of the world will be in the Valley of Megiddo - but some, without a doubt,  will be in Jerusalem, attacking that city.

So WHERE in TIME  is this in  relation to the kings and kingdoms? It is at the end of the 7th kingdom. The 6th would have been when Rome was destroying Israel. That is long in our past. Perhaps you are examining a tree. You need to back up and examine the forest.

When examining the forest, we see that the week starts in chapter 8 with the 7th seal. At the 7th trumpet it is at the midpoint of the week. This is when the Beast is seen rising from the waters. He will be revealed (as the Beast) at the midpoint of the week when the man of sin declares he is God. He will then be possessed and become the Beast. It is then the time of the 7th head. The week ends at the 7th vial. The beast is still alive. Perhaps 30 days later, after the marriage and supper in heaven, the armies of heaven come to earth, with Jesus leading. The 42 months of authority of the Beast ends as Jesus kills him.

Now perhaps you can help: Daniel 7 tells us that after the beast is taken, the OTHER beasts lives are extended for a time and a season - perhaps a little over a year. WHO ARE THEY?

¹¹ I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

In Revelation I cannot find the other beasts of Daniel 7.

Considering Daniel 2, the great image: certainly there will be people living in Iraq, which was old Babylon. Certainly there will be people living in Iran, which was old Medo-Persia. Before the man of sin will be turned Beast, without a doubt these will be strong Muslim nations. But according to John here in Revelation, they will be deceived and think that the Beast is their god. What then happens to "Islam" at that time? Either the Beast is the Imam of Islam and his goal is to make the world Islam, or else Islam disappears into the Beast's religion. The first beast in Daniel 9 appears to be speaking of Iraq. The second beast seems to be speaking of Iran. the third beast of Greece.   Perhaps then the "king's of these nations are left alive for a  time and a season.  Your thoughts?

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

You said: 

WHEN is this attack? What chapter is it in? The week ENDS at the 16th chapter. This is either very late in the week or after the week has ended. It is still the Day of the Lord.  Can you find an attack on Jerusalem in chapters 6 through 15? If you find it, show us!

This is  irrelevant to Rev 17 following after chapter 16 because Rev 17 is a time stamoed picture of  "the judgment of the great whore".

Are you backing away from the premise that the scarlet colored beast represents only a single kingdom?   If so, thete is no reason to discuss this any further.   But if not,  Reg 17 clearly says that this time stamp of Jerusalem's judgment is when the 6th king is in power.  Reiterating,  it says 5 KINGS are fallen,  and one is,  the sixth one.   It further states that the 7th one is to come (for a short space).  AND it says that the 10 kings have not received their kingdom [they do not have crowns].  If you can't see that this is before the 7th king arises,  your eyes are closed. 

Concerning the notion that a beast represents only a kingdom OR both a kingdom and the king,  you are using the notion that the premise (is the beast a man)  is true to prove that the premise oss true,  i.e. circular reasoning. 

Let me explain.   You are assuming that when the scriptures conjunctively refers to the beast AND the false,  that it is automatically referring to two "people" to then prove that other uses of the beast is referring to both, king and kingdom.   How do you arrive at the notion that the beast from the earh equates to the false prophet?  Does the beast from the earth [the lamb with two horns]  have more than one head?   Is it ever unequivocably stated that they are one and the same?   No,  on both accounts.   The "beast" from the earth is a lamb with one head and two horns.    What do we conclude here?  This beast is one kingdom,  with a co - recency of two kings.   We only have to look to the example found in Daniel 8 of the ram with two horns.   There it says that the 2 horns represent the 2 kings of Media and Persia.   From that point on [Rev 13] there is no referring to the single king of this beast from the earth.   This is why the kings of this kingdom (beast from the earth] are collectively referred to as the beast and false prophet.   Remember our original premise:  The 7th & 8th kings of the scarlet colored beast (kingdom)  are ruling over the same kingdom.   The beast from the sea and the beast from the earth are the same kingdoms... befoe and after the judgment of the great whore.   After this judgment,  it is ruled by two kings,  referred to as the beast and false prophet.   Their conjunctive use together is not to say the king and the Kingdom,  but the two kings of this one kingdom.   I know that this sounds contradictory,  but it's not.   It's referring to both of them as kings.   He does not refer to the "beast and false prophet" AS the beast from the sea AND the false prophet.  Collectively used,  the idea of beast used as a kingdom is excluded.  Therefore in that instance (beast & false prophet), beast is not used to refer to both the king and the Kingdom. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I take the entirety of scripture - the little I know - and determine that both the first Beast of Rev. 13 is a man and that the False prophet is also a man. They are both eventually killed and their spirits thrown into the lake of fire.  (A kingdom cannot be thrown into the lake of fire.) The second beast is CALLED the false prophet - so not hard to figure out.

" I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. "

" And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him "

These scriptures proof these are two different people. Therefore it is NOT circular reasoning. It is just understanding the scriptures.

There is no vision of the false prophet with multiple heads. He is only a man and he has not kingdom.  All we see of his appearance is two horns like a lamb. I don't know how old a male sheep is before horns grow.  On the other hand, the first beast as it rises up has 7 heads and ten horns, each horn with a crown. It is easy then to see that these are very different.

Are you backing away from the premise that the scarlet colored beast represents only a single kingdom?  No, the Beast represents BOTH ancient kingdoms AND the kingdom of the Beast, just as the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 represent both the ancient kingdoms and the end time kingdom.  What do we know of this "kingdom?" It used to be ten nations. But the Beast will take out three - conquer them - which will leave 7 nations, then the Beast will rule of all of them; including the three that were conquered.  At that time it will be ONE united kingdom - in my opinion.   For example, in Daniel 11 we KNOW Egypt will be a part of the end times - and will be conquered by the Beast.

What do we conclude here?  This beast is one kingdom,  with a co - recency of two kings.   We only have to look to the example found in Daniel 8 of the ram with two horns.   There it says that the 2 horns represent the 2 kings of Media and Persia.   Maybe this is telling us the False Prophet will come from Medo-Persia area of the world.  John gives us ZERO information about this. We can guess or we can refrain from commenting. Does a horn HAVE to represent a nation or empire? What is your theory? Which kingdom and which two kings (since you are guessing).

From that point on [Rev 13] there is no referring to the single king of this beast from the earth.  He does not appear as a king (or an empire) but as a prophet to assist the Beast in proving to the world that he is God. Perhaps you are reading into the two horns something not intended.  He is the one that does the deceiving - with false miracles. He is just referred to as "he."  From this point on, "the beast" only refers to the first beast. The second beast is then referred to as the "False Prophet."

The 7th & 8th kings   It is difficult to keep the 7th and 8th separate in my mind. The Beast takes out three kings and nations, as the 7th king (?) and then becomes the 8th king?

The beast from the sea and the beast from the earth are the same kingdoms  I have never seen the second beast as a "nation." I see him as a man.  Both "men" certainly work together.

 The beast from the sea and the beast from the earth are the same kingdoms... befoe and after the judgment of the great whore.   After this judgment,  it is ruled by two kings,  referred to as the beast and false prophet.   I don't see this as even possible because the destruction of the great whore (Jerusalem) begins as the week ends. The next thing that is written is that Jesus returns and ends it all.  I think after the 7th vial that ends the week and destroys the cities of the world, the Beast and False prophet may try to hide. Perhaps they are involved with the armies of the world trying to destroy Israel.  John does not tell us what they are doing when Jesus kills them.

I think we will continue to disagree on this.

[iamlamad]

I suspect either the man of sin turned Beast or the False Prophet will be the "prophet" Maitraya who has bee suddenly appearing and disappearing in many nations of the world.

[breathoflife]

Actually this being is trinity of evil. There is Satan the father, anti-christ the son and the false prophet the unholy Spirit they are shown I believe it is rev. 16. The Dragon is shown and out of the Dragon are the three persons mentioned above. Satan being a created entity does not have the omnipresence of God. That is why each person is in their own place. Satan the father is in heaven accusing the brethren day and night before God the Father, anti-christ is in the Bottomless Pit waiting to be released. Satan the false prophet is presently at work in the world opposing the ministry of the Holy Spirit. 

‘When anti-christ and the false prophet come upon the world they are here until the end of Daniel’s 70th Week. When they are defeated they are both thrown into the Lake of Fire. Satan is brought down from heaven in chains and placed in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years Satan is released leads the Gentile nations, Gog and Magog. They are defeated. Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire where anti-Christ and the false prophet have been for a thousand years.