apostasia

[Revelation Man]

On 5/21/2023 at 12:19 PM, Mr. M said:

Why would someone miss the rapture? Is it because they are unprepared? And yet, we are instructed by the Lord to live each day as if He may return. Therefore, this argument is placing the rapture over the Lord's own admonition, "that those who endure to the end will be saved".

He has told us exactly how we will know when He has returned, "you will see me when you see me".  For every eye will Behold Him.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lighting comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Zechariah 12:

8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 

9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

You seemingly missed the main thrust of my point. Is not about us who are saved, we are going in the Pre Trib Rapture, no matter what anyone thinks.

What matters is the YOUTH, they call it sowing wild oats, etc. etc. Call it whatever, but our youth usually are preoccupied until they get into the real world, with fake bravado, fake friends, false notions about life, etc. etc. But we have to get these same youths, the ones who usually wait until their mid 20s to maybe even mid 30s to settle down, in many cases, and take a look at the bigger picture, well we need to be getting them to Fear the Lord now, by telling them what they will go through if they miss the Pre Trib Rapture, and how many will not be strong because its hard for young Christian's to be strong without any ELDERS at hand to guide them. The Church will not be here for the 70th week. So, many of these guys and ladies will give in to the MOB MENTALITY, the same mobs that mandated we all needed to take the clot shot, which I did not get, but the MENTALITY is the point. 

After they youth see 1 billion dead Christians, (yes we leave our sin bodies behind) there is no telling what they will be told, but most will not have the vast understandings we all have. So, we should be preaching get saved now or face the worst troubles ever seen. Instead, we have people teaching, HEY, you are going to have to go through the 70th week troubles no matter what you do, so many will tarry. 

So, we are talking about 2 different things, I am not going to be here, no man who is truly in Christ will be here for the 70th week tribulation, but many young people will be here because they were like "Oh man, if I have to go through all of that, I will just wait and get saved then". THATS THE POINT. An untruth will take many young people to hell, when they face the 70th week they will give in. What do you see now? The Propagandists shout Transgenderism on kids is Great, many of the masses line up and shout YEA, YEA, YEA !! People are weak minded. These young people need to be told the facts, give your lives to Christ because in the next 10 years there will be literal hell on earth.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Revelation Man

[JoeCanada]

On 12/1/2019 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.

According to Thomas Ice, the word apostasia in 2 Thes. 2:3 refers to a physical departure, which he interprets to be the rapture. After noting that many early English versions translated apostasia with “departure,” he goes on to claim:

In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’*

Ice’s comment might give the impression that Jerome thought that apostasia in Greek referred to a physical departure. While the word discessio in Latin can refer to a physical departure (e.g. Acts 20:29 in the Vulgate, where it translates the Greek aphixis), it can also refer to a falling away from something (Acts 21:21, where it translates the Greek apostasia).

So what did Jerome think the apostasia/discessio might be? In his letter to Algasia, written in 406, he interprets 2 Thess. 2:3 as speaking of a revolt of nations from Roman authority:

For he [Paul] says that unless the falling away (discessio), which is called apostasia, comes first, so that all the nations who are subject to the Roman authority withdraw from them; and he will be revealed, that is, manifested, whom all the words of the prophets announced beforehand, the man of sin (author’s translation).

https://www.alankurschner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/vulgate-discessio-apostasy.jpgSource: http://www.patrologia-lib.ru/patrolog/hieronym/epist/epist04.htm

Before bringing up Jerome, Ice had claimed that Wycliffe’s translation read “departure” here, as though he had referred it to the rapture. This is interesting for our purposes, since Wycliffe translated the Latin Vulgate into English. Here is what Wycliffe actually wrote:

https://www.alankurschner.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/wycliffe-apostasia-dissension-1024x759.jpgSource: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+thessalonians+2&version=WYC

It is clear here that John Wycliffe (in his original 1382 translation from the Vulgate, here in square brackets) understood the “departing away” to be a “dissension,” and this reading was exclusively adopted by Wycliffe’s disciple John Purvey in his revision (with Wycliffe’s approval) of the 1382 translation published in 1388 (the main text).

Clearly...........  neither the Vulgate nor the Wycliffe Bible translated from it support any idea that Paul was speaking of a physical departure.

 

On 12/1/2019 at 10:43 AM, Revelation Man said:

I could care less what men think

 You  hold the words of Tommy Ice in high regard!

[JoeCanada]

54 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

which I of course always destroy

so where is your response to what Jerome actually said about 'apostasia'????

Go ahead.... destroy what he said.

57 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I know more about END TIMES then all other men I have known or read,

too funny!

 

[Revelation Man]

46 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

so where is your response to what Jerome actually said about 'apostasia'????

Go ahead.... destroy what he said.

As I stated, I do not care what some translator said from the 3rd or 4rth century as per understanding end times, unless they are Prophets, who ended via Malachi. 

The Departure us understood by the Context brother. The Gathering unto Christ Jesus is the balm for the Thessalonians fears. So, as my blog on the subject states, the Greek text in this instance used a definite article, which was not needed in the Greek, thus it was pointing unto something in particular, and that something was a gathering together unto Christ Jesus, of course. No where in the passage is FAITH even spoken about. 

Just because Jerome authored the translation of the Latin Vulgate brother doesn't mean we have to agree with him, that's like saying we must also get all the other people who translated the bible and agree with what they understood, I truly do not get that thinking brother. I disagree with Martin Luther on a ton of stuff, he thought the book of Revelation was not of God, he did not believe in the 1000 year reign. But who cares what one man thinks on any one subject? Not me, probably not you either. When someone cites or references a word from a translation, that doesn't mean the guy's actual translational work has to be deemed bad authorship if I disagree with his conclusions. That is a bad argument brother, I do not get it. So, there are 100s of bible translations, do you think you agree with all of those guys own un uderstandings? Of course not. A translation is much, much different than "Commentary" brother and you know this. So, even if a translator gets the word or words correct, that doesn't mean they have to understand its actual meaning. The 144,000 in Rev. 7 for instance just like the Woman in Rev. 12 both means 3.5-5 million Jews who repent, BUT.....the 144,000 is STILL the proper translation. If Jerome though it was 144,000 Jews OR only 144,000 actual Christians, he would have been wrong on both accounts, BUT, his translation is still correct. I am surprised you used this tbh, we both know a transliteration and commentary or two vastly different things. Again, I do not care what the understandings of the translators are, just that they get the translation correct. 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

too funny!

 

I can not tell a lie brother. 

When you get upstairs PRE TRIB with me (SMILE), and find out everything I told you was factual, then we can laugh about it. We know God has different callings for different peoples, yours was whatever it was, mine just so happened to be preaching and specifically in the bent of prophecy, a calling that came38 years ago, for His purposes. When the first two visions you get are one telling you basically the Anti-Christ is alive and on earth, and the next one you get is to prove God's word is true to a young Christian by being shown Jimmy Swaggart was about to lose his audience and ministry, and then he falls a week later, then you understand your calling very well. I ran from it awhile, no one really wants to discuss these things especially back then when I had no clue what this stuff mean. LOL. But nevertheless a calling is a calling.

Today, many people simply repeat things told by men that I heard years ago and in many cases discounted years ago, and if people are repeating stuff from years ago, and God is only goig to reveal end times understandings at the very end, arenpt we going to miss it if we are still focused on long ago understandings brother? In other words how are we going to hear the end time understanding God stated he was saving for the VERY END if we are repeating stuff men taught from years ago? The only reason I understand this is because the Lord answered a prayer when I prayed "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY UNDERSTANDINGS when in truth there is only one Lord" And the Holy Spirit was like, "Ron, you guys already know it all" So, I put off those men's traditions (some of the same ones men still harbor today) and  simply started asking God, SHOW ME Lord, especially on anything that seemed to make no sense to me or if it seemed contradictory, like the 144,000 Super Preachers. 1.) Why would God ever choose a perfect number? 2.) How come they needed protection? 3.) Why are they the First-fruits of the Father etc. etc. Also, why are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 seem coming out of great tribulation? The 5th Seal says there are no Raptures of Martyrs during the 70th week and Rev. 20:4 says those Martyrs are only judged after Jesus' return, so what gives? And last but not least how can a profane Meat Sacrifice being TAKEN AWAY defile anything? It made no sense but I just went along with that old thinking, until the Hoy Spirit told me, "Ron, you guys already know it all". 

Israel REPENTS before the DOTL, as I have been showing here, the Two-witnesses are the 1335 BLESSING, its a fact supported by the scriptures in the bible my friend. People understanding this or not is not going to change it. But here is what I do know, all those that already "KNOW IT ALL" can never hear what God is trying to say unto us, it gets blocked out by the mind that has all of the answers. That is why I was in a rut myself for so long.

So, how can a New Temple ever get cleansed ? Israel has to repent and start worshiping Jesus in that Temple, that is the only way !! When does that happen? Between the 1335 and the 1290 (a 45 day period of time). Thus when the AoD comes it is not the Anti-Christ who is only allowed to go forth conquering on day 1260, its his False Prophet Jewish High Priest from afar that STOPS the Jews from Worshiping Jesus in the temples (takes away The Sacrifice) and then places the AoD (Rev. 13 says the 2nd Beast makes an IMAGE of the first Beast). This is why/how the Jews understand they must flee Judea, they do not read Matthew 24, they only understand because they have repented just before the DOTL, as Zech. 13:8-9.......and 14:1-2 proves to us.  

But we were all taught it is the Anti-Christ that does all of this, when it is not, the AoD happens 30 days before he comes to power brother. Sure enough, I am not a person who repeats old stuff men understood from times past, but only because the Lord showed me that repeating those old understandings was stiffling what the Holy Spirit was trying to reveal unto us now. So, am I different, yes, God is only now revealing these things, repeating stuff from before God started revealing these things is not going to teach us His end time revelations my brother. 

[Alive]

15 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

But who cares what one man thinks on any one subject? Not me, probably not you either.

Does this not apply to everyone, then? One man here who declares he and he alone understands.

Is there a contradiction?

[Mr. M]

On 5/21/2023 at 4:34 PM, Revelation Man said:

After they youth see 1 billion dead Christians, (yes we leave our sin bodies behind) there is no telling what they will be told, but most will not have the vast understandings we all have.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

I am not following this 1 billion dead christian body scenario you describe.

[Mr. M]

On 5/21/2023 at 4:34 PM, Revelation Man said:

So, we should be preaching get saved now or face the worst troubles ever seen. Instead, we have people teaching, HEY, you are going to have to go through the 70th week troubles no matter what you do, so many will tarry. 

Overwhelmingly, the difference of opinion over the rapture is among believers, and has nothing to do with an evangelical message of salvation to the unsaved. I have never heard an evangelist base a salvation message on the question of the tribulation. Neither does any apostle in the New Testament. It is about judgment day, not rapture day. Those who reject the mark of the beast during the tribulation are said to be blessed.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

A pre-trib rapture is not the first resurrection.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The zeal with which you espouse this 70th week escapism comes across  as simple cowardice. What are you afraid of? Losing your head?

[Revelation Man]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

Does this not apply to everyone, then? One man here who declares he and he alone understands.

Is there a contradiction?

By in the context I mean via his translation. If a guy like King James commissioned a translation I am probably nit too concerned with what he thought on any one subject. Likewise Jerome lived long ago, of course looking back we are privy to many things he could never have foreseen, we thus have a major advantage over him. 

The point however is, his transliteration of Greek into Latin does not mean I MUST AGREE with his understandings. I do not even get his reasoning on that tbh. As per men tryin g to understand End Times Understandings, we have a very, very huge advantage, Gid stated He was not going to reveal it until the very end (NOW) so I am blessed to live in a time period why I can know more than Daniel who write what he heard, but was refused by the Man in Linen (Jesus preincarnate) when he aske for an understanding. We can know more, because of the time we are born into.  

God is going to reveal it all, who is going to listen? We have to hear, we can't allow old understandings to crowd out God's current voice. 

Gotta run, mom needs changing, shes 88 and bed ridden, got to run over there and help my sis out. God Bless all....

[JoeCanada]

34 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

It made no sense but I just went along with that old thinking, until the Hoy Spirit told me, "Ron, you guys already know it all".

 

35 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The only reason I understand this is because the Lord answered a prayer when I prayed "WHY ARE THERE SO MANY UNDERSTANDINGS when in truth there is only one Lord" And the Holy Spirit was like, "Ron, you guys already know it all" So, I put off those men's traditions

 

36 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

But here is what I do know, all those that already "KNOW IT ALL" can never hear what God is trying to say unto us, it gets blocked out by the mind that has all of the answers

And there it is!

" all those that already "KNOW IT ALL" can never hear what God is trying to say unto us, it gets blocked out by the mind that has all of the answers"

Are you not the guy that has been telling everyone in this forum (and other forums I'm sure) that .... wait, I'll copy and paste it...

"I don't follow men, I know more about END TIMES then all other men I have known or read...."

You yourself proclaim to be a "know-it-all" when it comes to understanding eschatology. 

Your words brother.

We see through a glass darkly.

No-one........and I mean no-one...... has all the answers. 

Anyone who says that they do is puffed up with pride. But God has a big old pin that He will use to deflate that ego and bring that man down to reality.

That will be a painful day!

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

I am not following this 1 billion dead christian body scenario you describe.

Good question, I do not mind when people who think like I used to ask me a question like this. I welcome it. 

QUESTION, what does raised incorruptible mean in verse 52? It means they have NO SIN FLESH, did you recognize that is what Paul meant? Most people don't actually grasp that fact brother. This can be proved by backing up to like verse 40 or so where it states that the Spirit man is raised, not the flesh man. Let me walk you through it, great question, this is how issues are resolved.

 

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Sin Flesh); it is raised in incorruption: (as a Spirit Man)

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

{{{ So, as we can see by BACKING UP a few verses Paul is speaking about a Natural FLESH BODY and a Spiritual Body. The first is CORRUPT Sin Flesh, the 2nd is of God as we see below.}}}

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God(Sin Flesh CAN NOT enter Heaven); neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (Sin Flesh can not gain INCORRUPTION)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(die), but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible(with No Sin Flesh, but as Spirit Men), and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible(Flesh) must put on incorruption(Our sin flesh must be LEFT and our Spirit Man goes to be with the Lord, jut like those who are RAISED with No Sin Flesh as incorruptible Spirit Men as verse 42 tells us), and this mortal must put on immortality.

So, if NO SIN FLESH can go to be with the Lord in Heaven, AND those who are raised at the Last Trump are raised as Spirit Men like verse 42 tells us, then those of us still alive, MUST BE CHANGED, which merely means we leave this evil sin flesh behind, and go to Heaven as Spirit Men, just like those who rest or sleep in the Lord do when they are raised, as verse 42 shows us.

TRANSLATION, we die, and go to be with the Lord as Spirit Men where we will get a Glorious Body. God sees our sin flesh as so evil that he would have ejected the Sacrifice Jesus made on the cross if Mary had merely touched him, thus in John 20, after Mary saw a raised Jesus he told her, "TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father" [to offer the sacrifice]. 

So, when the Pre Trib Rapture happens, there will be a Billion or so deaths, imho, because Jesus says only 5 of the 10 Virgins make the wedding call, 5 have no oil (Holy Spirit) and we have 2 Billion people who say they are Christians on earth now. That is how I get the one billion dead figure. We will in no wise all just disappear. Someone flying s plane will merely die, a bunch of people driving cars will simply die etc. etc.

God Bless