Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I like your last sentence: it makes sense. It is exactly what is written. 

I agree with the progression: God starts out in the trumpets with 1/3 destruction.

Takes time to built:  my guess is, at the start there will only be millions left alive on earth, from the billions of today. The population will have to grow.

Shalom, brother iamlamad.

What I said to wingnut, I also say to you:

Be careful when making broad generalizations. The word in Hebrew for "the earth" is "haa'aarets," which is also the word translated as "the land," particularly "THE Land" of Israel. If a Jew, such as John (Yochanan), has his words translated into Greek, the corresponding words are "hee gee" (spelled eta [with rough breathing] and gamma-eta, pronounced "hay gay"). These words were treated the same way as the Hebrew, particularly when used by one who thinks in Hebrew and is translated to Greek. They MAY refer to the whole earth as in "all the lands," but they may also be talking about "the Land" of Israel!

I don't believe the population will be as diminished as most think.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am really wondering why people don't believe this verse as written?
 

Rev 6:¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do people think this "day of His wrath" is not the same as "the Day of the Lord?"

Or do people imagine they can move the 6th seal to where they think it fits better? 

I don't understand many people's written answers. 

I see this as written in concrete so to speak: the 6th seal is one of the 7 seals sealing the book, and therefore cannot be moved anywhere else: it MUST say between seals 5 and 7. In chapter 8 the BOOK gets opened. The chapters following the 7th seal is then what is written in the book, so they cannot be rearranged either.

I have a novel idea: let's just rearrange our thinking to fit this: the DAY OF THE LORD, starts right here, before the 70th week has even started. 

I agree the 6th Seal starts right where God says it starts, on day 1261 of the 70th week of 2520 days, just like the first 5 Seals also are opened on day 1261, which leaves 1260 days of Satan/Dragon on earth, because he is kicked out of Heaven at the 6th Seal, on day 1261, that is why it is  chases the Woman for 1260 days. The Stars that fall from heaven are the Demons being kicked out of heaven at the 6th Seal. 

The 7th Seal is not opened until the Jews reach Petra, then in about 30 minutes the Trumps start sounding. 

A Seal contained a Letter, Instruction that the Royals or some higher up leader didn't want anyone else seeing. Thus they put a Wax Seal on the Parchment. It was sealed with the Kings/Leaders special Seal, so if anyone looked at the plans/instructions they would know about it. So if orders were sent, when it was opened the instructions were received, but the deployment was yet to happen.

So these Seals in Revelation are likewise just instructions of what is coming.

1. 1st Seal releases White Horse Conqueror {Anti-Christ} who goes forth Conquering on day 1261, he Conquers for 42 months.

2. 2nd Seal releases the Red Horse in which the Anti-Christ/Beast takes away the Peace {brings War} over a 42 month period.

3. 3rd Seal releases the Black Horse or Famine which the Anti-Christs Wars bring on mankind for a 42 month long period of time.

4. 4th Seal releases the Pale Green Horse of Death/Sickness/Grave which the Anti-Christ Beasts actions bring on mankind for 42 months.

5. 5th Seal is THE TESTAMENT of the Martyrs against the Anti-Christs Wickedness, he kills 2 billion some odd people over a 42 month period.

6. 6th Seal is God announcing His Wrath is at hand, over the next 1260 days, thus he casts Satan out of Heaven on day 1261. 

All of these Seals are OPENED on day 1261. 

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I agree the 6th Seal starts right where God says it starts, on day 1261 of the 70th week of 2520 days, just like the first 5 Seals also are opened on day 1261, which leaves 1260 days of Satan/Dragon on earth, because he is kicked out of Heaven at the 6th Seal, on day 1261, that is why it is  chases the Woman for 1260 days. The Stars that fall from heaven are the Demons being kicked out of heaven at the 6th Seal. 

The 7th Seal is not opened until the Jews reach Petra, then in about 30 minutes the Trumps start sounding. 

A Seal contained a Letter, Instruction that the Royals or some higher up leader didn't want anyone else seeing. Thus they put a Wax Seal on the Parchment. It was sealed with the Kings/Leaders special Seal, so if anyone looked at the plans/instructions they would know about it. So if orders were sent, when it was opened the instructions were received, but the deployment was yet to happen.

So these Seals in Revelation are likewise just instructions of what is coming.

1. 1st Seal releases White Horse Conqueror {Anti-Christ} who goes forth Conquering on day 1261, he Conquers for 42 months.

2. 2nd Seal releases the Red Horse in which the Anti-Christ/Beast takes away the Peace {brings War} over a 42 month period.

3. 3rd Seal releases the Black Horse or Famine which the Anti-Christs Wars bring on mankind for a 42 month long period of time.

4. 4th Seal releases the Pale Green Horse of Death/Sickness/Grave which the Anti-Christ Beasts actions bring on mankind for 42 months.

5. 5th Seal is THE TESTAMENT of the Martyrs against the Anti-Christs Wickedness, he kills 2 billion some odd people over a 42 month period.

6. 6th Seal is God announcing His Wrath is at hand, over the next 1260 days, thus he casts Satan out of Heaven on day 1261. 

All of these Seals are OPENED on day 1261.

I agree the 6th Seal starts right where God says it starts, on day 1261 of the 70th week of 2520 days   Sorry, my Brother, but this is nothing but myth unless you can prove it with scripture - which I am sure you cannot.

just like the first 5 Seals also are opened on day 1261,   More myth.

All of these Seals are OPENED on day 1261.   Complete myth. This is imagination, not scripture. However, if you can prove these statements by scripture I will repent.

The truth is, the 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal. You have jumped the gun by 2ooo years.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, brother iamlamad.

What I said to wingnut, I also say to you:

Be careful when making broad generalizations. The word in Hebrew for "the earth" is "haa'aarets," which is also the word translated as "the land," particularly "THE Land" of Israel. If a Jew, such as John (Yochanan), has his words translated into Greek, the corresponding words are "hee gee" (spelled eta [with rough breathing] and gamma-eta, pronounced "hay gay"). These words were treated the same way as the Hebrew, particularly when used by one who thinks in Hebrew and is translated to Greek. They MAY refer to the whole earth as in "all the lands," but they may also be talking about "the Land" of Israel!

I don't believe the population will be as diminished as most think.

Well, just the 6th trumpet takes out 1/3. How many will be lost at the sheep and goat judgment - or the parable of the tares? 
By the way, please give us a verse for the Greek and Hebrew lesson, so I will know where to hang this information.

[wingnut-]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am really wondering why people don't believe this verse as written?
 

Rev 6:¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do people think this "day of His wrath" is not the same as "the Day of the Lord?"

 

I already explained this in my initial response.  Those are the words of a bunch of unbelievers who are hiding in rocks and caves when they see the signs in the sky.  I also posted the scriptures from Matthew 24 where Jesus describes the exact same events and places them AFTER the great tribulation, but of course you didn't bother to address it because it disproves your chronology.  Not to mention you chose not to quote me, probably in the hopes I wouldn't see this attempted deflection.

 

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I see this as written in concrete so to speak: the 6th seal is one of the 7 seals sealing the book, and therefore cannot be moved anywhere else: it MUST say between seals 5 and 7. In chapter 8 the BOOK gets opened.

 

Written in concrete eh?  If you continue to make things up, I am going to continue calling you out on it.  I am going to post the opening of Revelation chapter 8, everything said prior to the trumpets, so it is clear to everyone there is nothing said about any book.

 

Revelation 8  When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

 

Where is your book?  By the way, the kind of seals being discussed here are the kind of seals used to seal scrolls or parchments, not books.

[wingnut-]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, of course I am serious! The study of God's word SHOULD be serious! It is NOT "unbelievable: it is the way John wrote.  As I said, I have been writing of this parenthesis for months on these threads. I am sorry you did not see it before. 

 

Brother, I am not reacting to the study of God's word, what I am reacting to is the audacity to attack others over chronology and then decide to insert "parentheses" that do not exist in any translation of scripture so that you can move things around at your leisure.  What is unbelievable is that you think that this sort of treatment towards others is fair or acceptable.  What it is my friend, is hypocritical.

And just as a side note, on October 11th, in the thread titled "he shall subdue three kings", starting on page 11 at the bottom, you engaged me in a discussion reading the chronology issue with a false accusation, followed by more false accusations, and never once brought this up.

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Note very carefully: I most certainly have not moved the 7th trumpet ANYWHERE.

 

But will you deal with what takes place as a result of the 7th trumpet, that is the question?

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
    and begun to reign.
18 The nations raged,
    but your wrath came,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

 

So what does it mean when it says the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord?  What is His kingdom?  Remember the Lord's prayer?  Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.  Also, just to be clear, please note that it says THE kingdom of the world, not plural, but one kingdom of the world.  Any ideas as to why it is one kingdom?

What do the elders mean when they say in the past tense, your wrath came?   When are the dead judged?  At what point are the prophets and saints rewarded?

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All I did was recognize a parenthesis and removed it from john's chronology.

 

Is that all?  Well let's just examine that for a moment with a brief glance to the beginning of chapter 11, because apparently you are overlooking the fact that this chapter is all about them.

 

Revelation 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

 

So what now, relocate your parentheses?  Because now you have a much more serious problem, if you don't move your parentheses you are changing the number of days they are to prophesy.  So what does that leave you with in chapter 11 once you do that?

 

Revelation 11  Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

 

Wow!  That's some woe we have there!  Unfortunately for you, if you notice from the previously posted verse 3, it is part and parcel with verses 1 and 2 in quotations, not imaginary quotations either, they are really there.  So guess what that means?  Yeah, verses 1-14 all go together, and now you have just put the sixth trumpet and connected it with the 7th vial.   Which means what?  Yeah, 7th trumpet has to come in there right along with it like I've been telling you all along, at the end.

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Others here try to move IMMOVABLE OBJECTS such as a trumpet or a seal.  I insist: they CANNOT be moved.  Theories that insist a seal or a trumpet or a vial be moved will certainly be proven wrong. 

 

You're going to have to rethink this I believe, at least if you ever want to make sense of Revelation and the rest of prophecy.  But I'll tell you what, there is another way of looking at this.  Instead of moving the 7th trumpet, leave it right where it is, and everything that follows after that point you will need to rearrange where they belong, including the vials/bowls.  Think of all the parentheses you can add in 11 chapters!

 

God bless

 

[wingnut-]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Okay, I can understand that. "Playing devil's advocate" in typing is like trying to convey facetious statements, though. They're often misunderstood without obvious clues as to their true intent.

 

Honestly I thought the opening sentence that read, "Let's play a game called iamlamad's insistence on chronology" was an obvious clue, but apparently not as obvious as I expected because you are not the first person to misunderstand my position.  I will have to rethink that approach in the future for sure.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Regarding the time when Yeshua` begins His Reign, I believe that the RESCUE is more pressing than His acceptance as King.

 

I agree, the rescue of His people is the priority according to the prophets and what takes place.  One particular passage that has always struck a chord with me, which dates back to the beginning of the very first temple is fitting.  I think this promise, though at that time wouldn't have been thought to be in regards to the future, certainly is applicable.

 

II Chronicles 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Be careful here. Remember this: the Hebrew word for "the earth" is "haa'aarets," but that is also the same word that is used for "the land," particularly "THE Land" of Israel.

 

Fair point.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

While it is true that He CAN "mow them down like grass" quickly, it is also true that Paul says He subdues His enemies, one at a time, from His Coming to the time when He hands over the EMPIRE (a World-wide Kingdom) to His Father.

 

What Joel describes in chapter 2 doesn't appear to be something that will take all that long.

 

Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom,
    a day of clouds and thick darkness!
Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains
    a great and powerful people;
their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them
    through the years of all generations.

3 Fire devours before them,
    and behind them a flame burns.
The land is like the garden of Eden before them,
    but behind them a desolate wilderness,
    and nothing escapes them.

4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses,
    and like war horses they run.
5 As with the rumbling of chariots,
    they leap on the tops of the mountains,
like the crackling of a flame of fire
    devouring the stubble,
like a powerful army
    drawn up for battle.

6 Before them peoples are in anguish;
    all faces grow pale.
7 Like warriors they charge;
    like soldiers they scale the wall.
They march each on his way;
    they do not swerve from their paths.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This isn't in "Heaven," brother; this is on the New Earth!

 

Agreed.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Brother, I am not reacting to the study of God's word, what I am reacting to is the audacity to attack others over chronology and then decide to insert "parentheses" that do not exist in any translation of scripture so that you can move things around at your leisure.  What is unbelievable is that you think that this sort of treatment towards others is fair or acceptable.  What it is my friend, is hypocritical.

And just as a side note, on October 11th, in the thread titled "he shall subdue three kings", starting on page 11 at the bottom, you engaged me in a discussion reading the chronology issue with a false accusation, followed by more false accusations, and never once brought this up.

...

As I have written many times, the written Greek did not have any kind of punctuation: NONE. They did not use periods, commas, semi-colons, colons, question marks, and certainly not quotation marks. We discover punctuation by study and meditating on God's word. Here is perhaps the easiest parenthesis to see and know that John used the idea:

Rev. 20:4  ... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

⁽⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

We all know that the "first resurrection" goes with living and reigning with Christ, and not with the "rest of the dead."

I discovered that John used a parenthesis in Rev. 11 because I first learned that the 7th trumpet marked the midpoint and those fleeing began their fleeing in 12:6 - which would be seconds after the abomination. Next, I knew the two witnesses show up just days before the midpoint. It is impossible to fit 1260 days into 3.5 days. I knew they are not destined to witness in the first half of the week, so the only possible alternative was that John used a parenthesis.

This is not a stretch of the imagination at all: When God introduced John to the two witnesses, He then took John on a side journey (outside of - His chronology) down the last half of the week with the two witnesses. For Chronology, the city will START to be trampled, the two witnesses show up, (just 3.5 days before the abomination) the 3.5 days pass, the man of sin enters the temple and declares He is God (stopping the daily sacrifices), The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven marking that event on earth, and those in Judea (those who will) begin to flee.

The way most people solve this dilemma is by insisting the two witnesses testify in the first half of the week. I know that is wrong.  So go ahead, accuse me of anything or everything. If you disagree, show us YOUR chronology through chapter 11 and 12. Oh, since you feel you can MOVE the 7th trumpet, I guess you have no chronology.

Note also John does the exact same thing in chapter 13: IN His chronology he sees the Beast arise, (Midpoint) then tells us he will get 42 months of authority, then OUTSIDE His chronology he takes the readers on a side journey (using the idea of a parenthesis) on down the last half of the week with the Beast and False Prophet only.) I can assure you, the intent of the Author is certainly NOT that the image and mark are created and enforced right at the midpoint of the week.

 

On the top of page twelve, I wrote this:
The seven trump and vials run concurrently.  "NO THEY DON'T! That is human imagination! ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.  How  can ANYONE compare 1/3 with one whole and imagine they are the same? How can anyone think, since John numbered the seals, the trumpets, the woes and the vials for sequencing then imagine the rest must be rearranged? "

Breathoflife wrote the bolded words. I disagreed with him. The truth is, the trumpets sound in the first half of the week and the vials late in the second half of the week. So how could they possibly be concurrent? The answer is, they cannot be.   I wrote my "axiom" on Revelation in a book years ago:

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, will be immediately suspect and will be proven wrong."

I have not changed my mind on this. People imagine they can just move seals, or trumpets or vials any which way, and I have heard it many ways. But they seldom offer and scripture to back up their reasoning. My thinking is, if someone imagines John did not write in Chronological order, then their must be good, scriptural proof.

By the way, I wrote you a personal post - in case you missed it.

Edited November 4, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

But will you deal with what takes place as a result of the 7th trumpet, that is the question?

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
    and begun to reign.
18 The nations raged,
    but your wrath came,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

So what does it mean when it says the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord?  What is His kingdom?  Remember the Lord's prayer?  Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.  Also, just to be clear, please note that it says THE kingdom of the world, not plural, but one kingdom of the world.  Any ideas as to why it is one kingdom?

What do the elders mean when they say in the past tense, your wrath came?   When are the dead judged?  At what point are the prophets and saints rewarded?

...

 

For study purposes it is always wise to check many translations, then check and see if the different Greek texts are different. for "the kingdoms" it seems some the different Greek texts agree. But when we look at the strongs: βασιλεῖαι — 1x

Occurrences:1 time in 1 verse

Speech:Noun

Parsing:Nominative Feminine Plural

This particular Greek word is plural. However, that being said, I have written frequently that "the earth" will be given back to Jesus. Perhaps I am wrong in saying that - perhaps it is better to say all the kingdoms of the world. The point is, Satan does not get to keep ANY kingdom. But again, that being said, God will allow Satan authority over all these kingdoms for 42 months.

It seems this idea bothers you: that God gives all the kingdoms (or if you please, one big kingdom putting them all together) to Jesus, but then allows 42 months of authority BACK to Satan. It does not bother me at all. If they are given to God, then He certainly has the right to delegate again.

As for verses 17 & 18: notice that these are words spoken by the elders, not from God.  Now, let's examine some of what was said:

the time for the dead to be judged,  Can we look ahead in the book and find judgment of the dead? Certainly we can, in chapter 20. Therefore, I classify these words as prophecy: they are only telling us what will be coming in the near future. In other words, there is no judging of the dead right here at the midpoint of the week.

for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,  Just look back at my previous answer: it is the same. We see rewards given as people are seated on thrones judging in chapter 20. They are prophecying: foretelling something soon to come in the future.

What do the elders mean when they say in the past tense, your wrath came? For study, it is always good to check the parsing of the Greek verbs. Here (and most other places in the book) John has used a Greek Aorist tense verb that does not show ANY KIND of timing information. However, we know His wrath began at the 6th seal, 3.5 years earlier, so of course at this time, God is still angry: He still has wrath. I think this is all that John is telling us at this time - at the midpoint.

I have tried my best to answer all your questions. If you wish more clarification, just ask.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Is that all?  Well let's just examine that for a moment with a brief glance to the beginning of chapter 11, because apparently you are overlooking the fact that this chapter is all about them.

Revelation 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

So what now, relocate your parentheses?  Because now you have a much more serious problem, if you don't move your parentheses you are changing the number of days they are to prophesy.  So what does that leave you with in chapter 11 once you do that?

Revelation 11  Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

Wow!  That's some woe we have there!  Unfortunately for you, if you notice from the previously posted verse 3, it is part and parcel with verses 1 and 2 in quotations, not imaginary quotations either, they are really there.  So guess what that means?  Yeah, verses 1-14 all go together, and now you have just put the sixth trumpet and connected it with the 7th vial.   Which means what?  Yeah, 7th trumpet has to come in there right along with it like I've been telling you all along, at the end.

You're going to have to rethink this I believe, at least if you ever want to make sense of Revelation and the rest of prophecy.  But I'll tell you what, there is another way of looking at this.  Instead of moving the 7th trumpet, leave it right where it is, and everything that follows after that point you will need to rearrange where they belong, including the vials/bowls.  Think of all the parentheses you can add in 11 chapters!

God bless

I keep telling you there are no problems: but it seems you keep ad libbing them!  ;-)

John's chronology: read the dark print:

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

⁽⁴ These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

⁵ And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

⁶ These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It's very simple: the city will be trampled for 42 two months, starting right there at the timing of verse 2. Then at the timing of verse 3, the two witnesses suddenly appear. Next (in time) God tells John that the second woe is past, the 3rd is coming quickly and the 7th trumpet sounds. Next it time, maybe a second or two later, those in Judea begin to flee.

It is not hard to picture in one's mind that just before the man of sin will divide the week by entering the temple and committing the abomination, that suddenly the two witnesses show up. They will have 3.5 days in the first half of the week to testify, but MOST of their testimony will be in the second half. They will be killed just 3.5 days before the END of the week, lay dead those 3.5 days, and be resurrected with the rest of the Old Testament saints, who will raise from the dead at the 7th vial.

Note carefully, I have not changed the number of days of their prophecy: all I have don't is place their time of testimony correctly on the timeline: 3.5 days in the first half of the week, then 1256.5 in the last half. Why? It is simple, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. They show up BEFORE the 7th trumpet.

This is not that difficult! John is introduced to the two witnesses IN CHRONOLOGY: just 3  1/2 days before the midpoint. But then God takes John on a SIDE JOURNEY (perhaps you would prefer a rabbit trail?) down the last half of the week using a parenthesis.

Again, if you disagree, then please show us YOUR timeline here. That is, if you have one!