Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

It seems that is much disagreement about the chronology of Revelation - or the lack thereof. 

However, I hope we can all agree that John wrote the book with HIS chronology. In other words, it is written in an order as given by the vision. Therefore, it is up to anyone who thinks John's order must be rearranged to show by scripture where John's order is not in fact the order these events will take place. 

John does use some timing phrases such as "after this" or "after these things." In fact, John used "after" 11 times in Revelation. This word shows John's chronology. Next, John numbered many events for sequencing. 

Then, the storyline itself requires chronology. We see a book sealed with seven seals. The goal, as shown by John, is that someone be found worthy to loose the seals so that THE BOOK can be opened. Yet, it seems people just forget the book once the seals are opened. It is what is inside the book that gets Satan kicked off his earthly throne. 

In chapters 11 through 13, John is introduced to 5 separate countdowns to the end of the week. AFter chapter 13, then, all five are counting down at the same time. In other words, they are parallel times. How does John (or God showing the vision) solve this problem? It is easy: God shows us these 5 countdowns have a staggered beginning: they don't all start at the same moment in time. The 42 months of trampling start first, when the man of sin with his Gentile armies show up in Jerusalem - just days before he will enter the temple and commit the abomination. Then after he shows up and the trampling begins, the two witnesses show up. They show up just 3.5 days before the man of sin will enter the temple. 

Then the 3.5 days pass, the man of sin enters the temple, declares to the world (without a doubt on camera) that he is the God of the Jews, the very God of creation, and within seconds, those in Judea begin to flee. The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven the moment the man of sin declares he is God. (Rev. 12:6) At the moment they begin to flee, Michael and His army of Angels go into the heavens and cast Satan down to earth. I guess we could say, he loses his wings. He will be confined to earth. 

The two witnesses then testify for their 126o days - with 1256 1/2 days left in the second half of the week to testify. At the end of their 1260 days, it will be just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They will be killed then, and lay dead for those 3.5 days. They will be resurrected with all the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial. (note the world's worst earthquake, as God raises those saints from before the flood)

So where are the days of great tribulation? (GT)  We don't have to guess: John shows us: the days of GT will be CAUSED by the Beast forcing people to bow to an idol - or lose their head - or forcing people to take the mark or lose their head. Millions will refuse, causing millions to lose their head. John shows us the beheaded BEGIN to show up in chapter 15, showing us that the days of GT begin only after the warning God gives about the mark in chapter 14. Yet, for some reason, people imagine the days of GT are in the seals. 

The very first thing God did as He began to teach me about Revelation was that He sent me to find the "exact midpoint: clearly marked." (His words, not mine.)  This showed me very clearly that God used some kind of "marker" so we would know where that exact midpoint is. Next, this told me that the ENTIRE 70th WEEK was in our future, not just a half week as some suppose.  Almost as an afterthrought, God said, "you could also find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked." This told me that God would use the SAME MARKER for the beginning and ending of the week as He used to mark the midpoint. 

I discovered that God used the 7's as markers: the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, the 7th seal starts the week with the half hour of silence, and the 7th vail ends the week. I find many people disagree here. 

What I see on these threads is that many people "jump the gun" so to speak and want to start the 70th week in the seals, while God is in the church age in the seals. 

Well, one thing about our different theories is good: it should cause each of us to spend more time studying these things.

A final thought: since John has his own chronology, if someone disagrees, I think they need good scriptural proof of why then feel the need to rearrange. 

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, The Light said:

It should be clear enough to just read what it says. The remnant of the seed of the woman has to be of the 12 tribes. Can't be anything else. No way it can be Gentiles.

 

I was out of pocket all day yesterday, at the doctor, then shopping in B'Ham.

Of course it can, because its the Church, people just don't see the KJV's way of speech easily. Many time I have to use the  Holman {HCSB} version to make a point. I can see most of the times whats in the KJV, I guess I just have gotten used to their weird Ole Englishe language. But the Christians Gentiles are the OFFSPRING of that SEED. We have to understand whom the SEED is pointing to. We do that by looking to Galatians ch. 3. But first lets look at the HCSB version of Rev. 12:16-17.

Rev. 12:16 But the earth helped the woman. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon had spewed from his mouth. 17 So the dragon was furious with the woman and left to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and have the testimony about Jesus. 

We see who the Seed is in Gal. ch. 3. 

Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Instead of looking at the Jews as the SEED lets now look back at Rev. and see THE SEED for who it really is, Jesus.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon {Satan} was wroth with the woman {Israel, because he couldn't get at her}, and went to make war with the remnant {Small part that is LEFT}of her seed {Jesus is THAT SEED}, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Jews can't be the Remnant, Satan the Dragon can't get at the 1/3 of the Jews {Zechariah 13:8-9} who Repent, but he can indeed get at the 2/3 of the Jews who refuse to repent, Zechariah 13:8-9 tell us they indeed will Perish, BUT they are not of God, they never Repent not keep his commandments and nor are they of Jesus. And with the other 1/3 of the Jews in Petra, they couldn't be considered the Remnant {SMALL PART} anyway. The church is indeed in Heaven, thus the remnant {Small part that is left} of her SEED {Jesus} are those Gentiles who accept Jesus and thus are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal, those Jews who Repent God will protect in Petra. So who are the REMNANT of Jesus ? The Church that comes unto Christ AFTER the Rapture.

 

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Again, there is the Church that is raptured pretrib. The seals are then opened and the 70th week of Daniel begins. At the end of 7 years there will be a prewrath rapture that will be of the 12 tribes. Only the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God. Those that flee as instructed will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection. The church will be raptured on Pentecost the early summer grain harvest feast. The 12 tribes will be raptured pre wrath on the Feast of Trumpets, Rosh Hashanah

 

The 70th week begins, the Seals are opened in the Middle of the Week on day 1261, thus there are 1260 days left until these WONDERS END {Dan. 12}. All the Gentiles not Raptured will go through Gods Wrath, even those Gentiles who REPENT, thus they are the Martyrs. The Jews who Repent are on earth but PROTECTED from Gods Wrath. Just because they are on earth doesn't mean they receive of his wrath. Rev. 18:4 tells us that. "Come out of her mt people {Israel/144,000} that you do not partake in her sins and that you do not receive her {Babylon/Whole Worlds} Plagues. {I am paraphrasing here}. The 144,000 {2-3 million Jews who come to Christ} are left on earth to repopulate the Earth. Jesus is going to reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years. Not getting the 144,000 is a CODE for All Israel is going to throw us into confusion. The whole book is one big CODE BOOK.

16 hours ago, The Light said:

On 11/1/2019 at 6:44 AM, Revelation Man said:

I think the days are shortened by delaying the abomination of desolation being set up. We are still talking 7 years.

 

Its shortened by Jesus' RETURN, he CUTS OFF Evil on earth, as was the ORIGINAL PLAN. Think about it, if Jesus Returns he SHORTENS what would be the natural life of the Beast on earth by KILLING HIM and casting him into hell. 

 

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

What I can find is that the 144,000 are first fruits and redeemed from the earth. That guarantees that there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes. It will occur prewrath as we can see in Matt 24 and Rev 6. This can't be the church as we see them in heaven in Rev 5

I am about to put the book of Revelation in order because they have a discussion going on here about the 7th Trump. When one comes to Christ that is a Harvest in and of itself, being Raptured is not a requirement, see Rev. 14:18-20, the Wicked Tares are Harvested by being KILLED. The First-fruits to be saved by Jesus is all that means. Matt. 24 pre verse 15 has nothing to do with the Rev. 6 plagues. people error in that thinking. I face that all the time, so I am used to it. 

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Please explain what does not align with what. I only quoted what John wrote. These were not difficult verses.

 

Find one passage regarding the millennial reign of Jesus not being from Jerusalem, we'll leave it at that.

 

[iamlamad]

12 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Find one passage regarding the millennial reign of Jesus not being from Jerusalem, we'll leave it at that.

 

OF COURSE He sets His feet down on the mount of Olives in Jerusalem. His millennial temple will be in Jerusalem.  I think where you are missing it is the first 3.5 years or so of the new millennial are God finishing up the judgments decreed in preparation for the official beginning of Christ's reign with a rod of Iron. Jesus remains in heaven for those 3.5 years and perhaps 30 days after.

I don't see the problems you seem to see. 

[wingnut-]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I don't see the problems you seem to see.

 

Like I said, find one passage that doesn't have Him reigning from Jerusalem for the entire duration of this period, 1000 year reign it is called, not 996.5 year reign.  Maybe it's a problem relating to what the Sabbath is?  Consider what the rest is from, when satan is bound up?

 

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

 

I was out of pocket all day yesterday, at the doctor, then shopping in B'Ham.

Of course it can, because its the Church, people just don't see the KJV's way of speech easily. Many time I have to use the  Holman {HCSB} version to make a point. I can see most of the times whats in the KJV, I guess I just have gotten used to their weird Ole Englishe language. But the Christians Gentiles are the OFFSPRING of that SEED. We have to understand whom the SEED is pointing to. We do that by looking to Galatians ch. 3. But first lets look at the HCSB version of Rev. 12:16-17.

Rev. 12:16 But the earth helped the woman. The earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon had spewed from his mouth. 17 So the dragon was furious with the woman and left to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and have the testimony about Jesus. 

We see who the Seed is in Gal. ch. 3. 

Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Instead of looking at the Jews as the SEED lets now look back at Rev. and see THE SEED for who it really is, Jesus.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon {Satan} was wroth with the woman {Israel, because he couldn't get at her}, and went to make war with the remnant {Small part that is LEFT}of her seed {Jesus is THAT SEED}, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Jews can't be the Remnant, Satan the Dragon can't get at the 1/3 of the Jews {Zechariah 13:8-9} who Repent, but he can indeed get at the 2/3 of the Jews who refuse to repent, Zechariah 13:8-9 tell us they indeed will Perish, BUT they are not of God, they never Repent not keep his commandments and nor are they of Jesus. And with the other 1/3 of the Jews in Petra, they couldn't be considered the Remnant {SMALL PART} anyway. The church is indeed in Heaven, thus the remnant {Small part that is left} of her SEED {Jesus} are those Gentiles who accept Jesus and thus are the Martyrs under the Altar at the 5th Seal, those Jews who Repent God will protect in Petra. So who are the REMNANT of Jesus ? The Church that comes unto Christ AFTER the Rapture.

  The 70th week begins, the Seals are opened in the Middle of the Week on day 1261, thus there are 1260 days left until these WONDERS END {Dan. 12}. All the Gentiles not Raptured will go through Gods Wrath, even those Gentiles who REPENT, thus they are the Martyrs. The Jews who Repent are on earth but PROTECTED from Gods Wrath. Just because they are on earth doesn't mean they receive of his wrath. Rev. 18:4 tells us that. "Come out of her mt people {Israel/144,000} that you do not partake in her sins and that you do not receive her {Babylon/Whole Worlds} Plagues. {I am paraphrasing here}. The 144,000 {2-3 million Jews who come to Christ} are left on earth to repopulate the Earth. Jesus is going to reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years. Not getting the 144,000 is a CODE for All Israel is going to throw us into confusion. The whole book is one big CODE BOOK.

Its shortened by Jesus' RETURN, he CUTS OFF Evil on earth, as was the ORIGINAL PLAN. Think about it, if Jesus Returns he SHORTENS what would be the natural life of the Beast on earth by KILLING HIM and casting him into hell.   

I much prefer to follow Johns's narrative:  he starts the church age with the first seal, then the martyrs of the church age with the 5th seal and finally the start of judgment at the 6th seal, all in chapter 6. The 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal. 

Note carefully: if people miss the foundation that John builds on which is the first seal as the CHURCH with the GOSPEL in 32 AD, everything built on it will be in error, with the wrong timing. For example, those that imagine the first seals as the antichrist will be 2000 years off. He is FUTURE, not past. Most people want to jump the gun and start the future at the first seal, but John starts the future with the 6th seal, around 2000 years later.

John starts God's wrath at the 6th seal, so the ENTIRE 70th WEEK is God's wrath; every trumpet judgment, and every vial and plague come with God's wrath.

Good point in people coming OUT of Jerusalem, for the plagues will be centered on Israel, for Jerusalem will be the Beast's headquarters. We know Jerusalem will be burned with fire.

The days of great tribulation, with people being beheaded because they refuse the mark and refuse to bow, begin in chapter 15, and continue on UNTIL the vials of wrath (with associated plagues) shorten those days. The 42 months of authority will certain be fulfilled, but the last unknown number of the 42 months will NOT be days of great tribulation: the vials and plagues will render the armies of the Beast helpless. The week will finally end at the 7th vial, but Jesus remains in heaven for the marriage and supper. AFter the supper, finally, Jesus gets on the white horse to descend to the Battle of Armageddon. 

It seems then, you are putting the book OUT of John's order.

Edited November 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

9 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Like I said, find one passage that doesn't have Him reigning from Jerusalem for the entire duration of this period, 1000 year reign it is called, not 996.5 year reign.  Maybe it's a problem relating to what the Sabbath is?  Consider what the rest is from, when satan is bound up?

 

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

There still is NO PROBLEM! People imagine OUR calendar is HIS calendar. OUR millennium change will come at the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week. HIS 1000 years will not begin until after the sheep and goat judgment. Perhaps it will begin on the 1335th day. Perhaps that is the day that Satan is bound.

This is quite like the two witnesses that begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, and the rest of their testimony then is in the last half of the week. They have their full 1260 days, but all 1260 days is neither in the first half of the second half.

I still don't see a problem with Jesus beginning His reign over the kingdoms of the world at the 7th trumpet marking the midpoint of the week just as John tells us. It is just not his 1000 year reign - which will begin some unknown time after the week has finished.

In other words, it is only man's imagination that God's 1000 years must align with our calendar.

[wingnut-]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is just not his 1000 year reign - which will begin some unknown time after the week has finished.

 

And yet you quoted the very scriptures that state His reign begins once the 7th trumpet sounds.  You can't undo scripture, you cannot have Him reigning but not reigning, and you certainly cannot produce a single passage of scripture to show Him reigning anywhere but from Jerusalem.

 

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, it is only man's imagination that God's 1000 years must align with our calendar.

 

Yet you continue to try and make it fit your imagination.  1000 years, that is what John wrote, you want to change that but can't accept the 7th trumpet is not chronological.  Everyone knows that the 1000 years does not begin until satan is bound, but you didn't bother to address that issue.

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

And yet you quoted the very scriptures that state His reign begins once the 7th trumpet sounds.  You can't undo scripture, you cannot have Him reigning but not reigning, and you certainly cannot produce a single passage of scripture to show Him reigning anywhere but from Jerusalem.

Yet you continue to try and make it fit your imagination.  1000 years, that is what John wrote, you want to change that but can't accept the 7th trumpet is not chronological.  Everyone knows that the 1000 years does not begin until satan is bound, but you didn't bother to address that issue.

OF COURSE He can "reign" but not be in His 1000 year reign. He has been reigning over His church for nearly 2000 years now. At the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world are given to Him and he begins to reign right then, but Satan is not yet locked up, so His 1000 year reign has not yet started. I think you are making too much of this. There are no problems in Scripture.

Yes, of course I can: at the 7th trumpet He is reigning but from HEAVEN. You cannot find a scripture that shows Him on earth anytime during the 70th week.

If you insist that the 1000 years begins when Satan is locked up, I am not going to argue: that seems like a good place to start. But HIS 1000 years does not have to match our 1000 years. 

Note carefully, I leave the 7th trumpet right where John put it: at the midpoint of the week. 

You are just going to have to take it up with Jesus when we arrive: ask Him why He placed the 7th trumpet in chapter 11.

I think we will continue to disagree as long as you insist the 7th trumpet really isn't at the midpoint of the week.