Al Baghdadi.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Alive said:

All of this stuff that is looking for indicators of prophecy fulfillment. UFO's,  technology, so called apparitions, the UN, etc.

I think it is likely that all of these things are a distraction and not at all indicative of the Lord's return.

It is not even a sure thing that there will be any one world government that has anything to do with anything.

There is a great deal of talk about the 'supernatural' arising. I am not convinced that that sort of thing is at all what the scriptures point to.

Perhaps those things will remain strictly behind the curtain, so to speak? Just as they are now and have been.

Ok. There is a great deal written about eschatology in scripture. So much in fact that it's a dominant theme. Jesus Return is the focus in tandem with the saving grace of God by the sacrifice and spilled blood of our savior Jesus Christ.

If you're rejecting the events from the above quote and your belief is a 'behind the scene' fulfillment, how would the fulfillment manifest? What would be indicative of Jesus' soon return?

I do believe you are correct about a one world government. It will not be, at least not like many envision.

My contention is the coming changes are driven by power beyond our understanding. The beast comes riding this wave of the power of the hand and mind. 

 

[Alive]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ok. There is a great deal written about eschatology in scripture. So much in fact that it's a dominant theme. Jesus Return is the focus in tandem with the saving grace of God by the sacrifice and spilled blood of our savior Jesus Christ.

If you're rejecting the events from the above quote and your belief is a 'behind the scene' fulfillment, how would the fulfillment manifest? What would be indicative of Jesus' soon return?

I do believe you are correct about a one world government. It will not be, at least not like many envision.

My contention is the coming changes are driven by power beyond our understanding. The beast comes riding this wave of the power of the hand and mind. 

 

Perhaps you misunderstand me...perhaps not.

I just mean to say that it is possible that the supernatural powers behind the prophesied events will take the outward form of 'natural' things.

Or perhaps, mankind will indeed see as the prophet opened eyes to see the chariots that day.

I suspect all of the events of the 7 years will appear to be 'natural' cause up until the 'Day of the Lord'--when He appears with a loud shout and a trumpet sounding.

I believe we are best served to have our 'eyes fixed on Him' rather than imaginary distractions.

Just my opinions...I claim nothing more.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Alive said:

suspect all of the events of the 7 years will appear to be 'natural' cause up until the 'Day of the Lord'--when He appears with a loud shout and a trumpet sounding.

Yes. Like maybe nukes. Amazing images are conjured in the first three trumps.

I think I do understand what you point out, at least in part. 

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, Alive said:

I just mean to say that it is possible that the supernatural powers behind the prophesied events will take the outward form of 'natural' things.

 

If I understand you correctly I agree completely.  What I see in Revelation, are all events that will seem completely natural based on the current conditions we see evolving.  Global warming for example, increased interest in near earth objects hitting our planet, increased interest in aliens and their existence, etc.  It cannot be true what Jesus said that it will be "as in the days of Noah" any other way.  Right up until the signs of His coming, everything will go on as it has been and all the early events that precede it will appear to the masses as regular events taking place based on some of these scientific ideals.

It is also fair to consider in all of this, that it has already begun and that those who believe some of the seals are already open are correct.

 

God bless

[Diaste]

On 11/5/2019 at 10:04 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Start with the implied collaboration, the woman is riding the beast.  Then it is a matter of all the other shared attributes.  The kings of the earth, and the dwellers of the earth are drunk on this city's wine, which is a reference to the spiritual influence.  The beast we know from other scripture has demanded all worship be directed to him, so they are connected in the religious system.

Then you have the reference to the city being drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Christ.  The beast is the one who wages the 42 month war on the saints, but both of them are apparently accountable for the casualties of this war.  So they are connected in the military system.

Then we are told the city has dominion over the kings of the earth in the passage, and elsewhere in scripture we are told that the beast is given authority over everyone.  So they are also connected in rulership.

Conclusion, the beast is reigning from this city.

 

God bless

That would make Jerusalem the city in question then, would it not?

Jerusalem is trampled underfoot for 42 months.

"He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain. " This has to be either in Jerusalem proper or very near.

I don't feel the conclusion is correct. An ideological connection is not a correlation for the seat of power.

"With such violence the great city of Babylon will be cast down, never to be seen again."

That is not said of Jerusalem. 

Zech 14 shows Jerusalem endures forever, that is not said of Babylon.

So I would say it's not true the beast rules from Babylon. He rules from Jerusalem or just outside the city. 

[wingnut-]

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

That would make Jerusalem the city in question then, would it not?

 

Yes, that is what I believe.

 

19 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't feel the conclusion is correct. An ideological connection is not a correlation for the seat of power.

 

I would say it is more than an ideological connection, as there are physical instruments put in place.

 

Revelation 13:13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

 

There is a physical image, an idol or statue of some sort erected that will be given breath and might even speak.  Wherever this image is located, would that not make a physical place of power?  This place is also where the "image" demands worship and implements the mark of the beast which now incorporates buying or selling and the consolidation of wealth to pass through this place.

 

God bless

 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Yes, that is what I believe.

I would say it is more than an ideological connection, as there are physical instruments put in place.

Revelation 13:13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

There is a physical image, an idol or statue of some sort erected that will be given breath and might even speak.  Wherever this image is located, would that not make a physical place of power?  This place is also where the "image" demands worship and implements the mark of the beast which now incorporates buying or selling and the consolidation of wealth to pass through this place.

 

God bless

 

I have heard before that Jerusalem becomes Babylon, I'll dig into that a little more and get back to that. As of now scripture relates Jerusalem remains forever and Babylon is destroyed forever, so they cannot be the same. 

I agree there will be a seat of power manifest in the physical realm and I am assured that will be Jerusalem, and the beast will reign there. This seat of power and the Great City are created and administered by the one entity, Satan, and so they are inseparable in bearing responsibility. I would argue Babylon has been around since the beginning manifest in cities like Sodom, Nineveh and of course Babylon. Babylon is spiritual wickedness foremost and so could be located anywhere. It's my belief the city which is the embodiment of this spiritual evil in the end of the age is yet to rise.

[Justin Adams]

Mankind. Yes, us humans have been chosen of the Lord to be a bridge between the natural and the supernatural. The supernatural encompasses the natural and all through our scriptures we have been encouraged to see God's Realm as the real one that includes all others. The beings that fell have been deposed and their authority has been removed. The humans that still want to play God will be used by these deposed holy-ones to effect their aims (in the short term). But the end-game will be one of humans vs humans; humans versus non-humans and heavenly beings vs ex-heavenly beings. It is a way God has of poking His ex-sons right where it matters. It is God's game and the way He plays it can be seen by studying the days leading up to Noah's flood. For reasons only known to the Goodness of God, He has and will be using His Created People to thwart the supernatural and natural rebels.

We are the sons of the most High. We will replace the Deut 32 and Psalm 82 displaced children of God. We are honored to be now called the children of God and brothers and sisters of Yeshua. It is all God's doings in order to once again establish Eden on the earth.

The battle will be for all the marbles; Mount Zion. The City of our God and the Mountain of His Holiness is the prize. And we win, under God's direction as He is our Commander-in-Chief.

We share Yeshua's throne even as He shares the Father's throne.

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Justin Adams

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have heard before that Jerusalem becomes Babylon, I'll dig into that a little more and get back to that. As of now scripture relates Jerusalem remains forever and Babylon is destroyed forever, so they cannot be the same.

 

Yes, I am sure at some point in the past we have discussed this connection between Jerusalem and the Babylon of Revelation.  I do believe they are one and the same, so from there it is a matter of resolving the issue of Jerusalem remaining forever and Babylon being destroyed forever.  You touched on what I believe is the explanation in your response, the spiritual nature of all this.

Ancient Babylon is destroyed, so this Babylon of the end times is a symbolic reference relating to what takes place there spiritually.  The religion of that time is going to be the last false religion to exist, the worst to have existed, and when it falls there will never again exist such a thing.  What follows is Jesus' kingdom which will in fact stand forever, but there is a difference between modern day Jerusalem and Zion, His holy city.  Something to consider in confirming this is what Jesus said Himself, in regards to His kingdom, which is where He will rule from on earth.

 

John 18:36  Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

 

There are a few other things worth considering, one being, the actual land that is promised to Abraham's seed in Genesis.

 

Genesis 15: 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

 

So from the Nile River to the Euphrates river, that is the area which makes up the promised land that Israel never took complete possession of, but it is a promise from God that it is all of that land, which means this promise is yet future.  It brings to mind the passages from the prophets that speak of a highway from Egypt and Assyria, because this area of land involves those exact borders.

The second thing to consider is the size of Ezekiel's temple, another future prophecy to be fulfilled.  It is larger than Jerusalem itself, but when you consider the area that will be Israel later we can see that this temple will fit in the larger territory.  Anyway, that is how I understand it, let me know what you think.

 

God bless

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Yes, I am sure at some point in the past we have discussed this connection between Jerusalem and the Babylon of Revelation.  I do believe they are one and the same, so from there it is a matter of resolving the issue of Jerusalem remaining forever and Babylon being destroyed forever.  You touched on what I believe is the explanation in your response, the spiritual nature of all this.

Ancient Babylon is destroyed, so this Babylon of the end times is a symbolic reference relating to what takes place there spiritually.  The religion of that time is going to be the last false religion to exist, the worst to have existed, and when it falls there will never again exist such a thing.  What follows is Jesus' kingdom which will in fact stand forever, but there is a difference between modern day Jerusalem and Zion, His holy city.  Something to consider in confirming this is what Jesus said Himself, in regards to His kingdom, which is where He will rule from on earth.

 

John 18:36  Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

 

There are a few other things worth considering, one being, the actual land that is promised to Abraham's seed in Genesis.

 

Genesis 15: 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”

 

So from the Nile River to the Euphrates river, that is the area which makes up the promised land that Israel never took complete possession of, but it is a promise from God that it is all of that land, which means this promise is yet future.  It brings to mind the passages from the prophets that speak of a highway from Egypt and Assyria, because this area of land involves those exact borders.

The second thing to consider is the size of Ezekiel's temple, another future prophecy to be fulfilled.  It is larger than Jerusalem itself, but when you consider the area that will be Israel later we can see that this temple will fit in the larger territory.  Anyway, that is how I understand it, let me know what you think.

 

God bless

Pretty much agreed.

I think a concept applies to scripture that perhaps I lean on in interpretation more than some. That is the dual nature. I'm convinced that the real work is done in a spiritual way. For instance Jesus' sacrifice for sin. Obviously we are not walking around covered in blood but spiritually His shed blood remits our sins, a spiritual payment covering our lack. The real fulfillment then is in the heavens releasing our spirit from the curse of sin and death. This is not a physical reality but wholly a soul saving spiritual reality. But Jesus still had to go to the cross, shed His precious blood and die, all physical acts.  Then we as physical beings are assured of salvation through Jesus right now, in this form. Even after, though we are saved only by spiritual truth in the love and grace of our Father, we are going to retain a physical form throughout the Millennium and perhaps beyond. Angels come to mind as they have physical form. Jesus appeared in physical form, returns in a physical form, we reign with him in a physical city in bodily form.

This dual nature is applicable throughout scripture.

While I am in full agreement with your above reply there needs to be a physical fulfillment as well. I agree that Babylon is at the core the concept of all the excess of deep evil and rebellious ideology. But it is clearly going to be a city that either exists at present, and we just can't see it, or it will rise. I think the whole of Rev 18 confirms this and affirms the dual nature, axiomatic of all existence save the Father, He is Spirit.

I looked into Zion a bit and I'm not yet fully informed on that. I have to check the Word as I only scanned some commentary, which turned out to be pretty consistent, and which aligns with your thoughts. Though it seems these days Jerusalem and Zion are synonymous I don't see that as justified from what I have read. It may be the Jerusalem which endures forever is the City from Rev 21 and perhaps has nothing to do with Jerusalem, Israel. At this point I do believe the land you mentioned and contemporary Jerusalem are vitally important, but I don't yet feel fully informed.

Anyway, that's how I see it for now. Things change sometimes. :)