Using triangulation to come to a definitive chronology

[iamlamad]

Now we see even more great pressure: not only will one die of they refuse to bow, and refuse the mark, but now people understand they will be tortured forever by fire and brimstone if they take the mark! We are talking GREAT PRESSURE.

Now a little common sense: Would God give this warning LATE: after the fact – after the mark was being enforced? Of couse not! Therefore, but the time of this verse, the mark is NOT YET BEING ENFORCED.  But lets go on:

Rev. 14:¹² Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Now John is telling us the days of GT have begun. Where? In the first half of the week as some propose? Not a chance! This is in chapter 14 which is AFTER the beast has been revealed (declared He was God while standing in the most holy place in the temple).

Now notice:

15:² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

HOW did they get victory? They refused to bow and refused the mark – and lost their heads!

The devil’s plan here is to force all to receive the mark and be doomed forever. But these got VICTORY over his plans.

Did you or have you noticed the progression?

In chapter 11, God introduces John to the two witnesses, who will bring TRUTH while it seems the beast brings lies that will deceive the entire world – save those who will be saved.

In chapter 12 God introduced John to the Dragon, the devil, for these days of GT are really HIS DOING.

In chapter 13 God introduces John to the Beast and False Prophet whom Satan will use to bring about HIS will. They will created the image and the mark.

IN chapter 14 are are told of God’s warning to those on the earth, in fact, God gives them the RIGHT ANSWER: refuse the mark!

In Chapter 15, the beheaded begin showing up in heaven. 

And people imagine the days of GT are found in the seals, or in the first half of the week? People imagine John has not real chronology? Really?

RM pointed out that triangulation is great IF IF IF the points of triangulation are correct. If stand back a few paces and see the whole book, Instead of two or three verses, John follows a straight run through TIME as we progress through Revelation. He starts while he is alive, but if we look in chapter 20, God has taken him in a vision to well over a thousand years into OUR future. John numbered the seals, the trumpets and the vials, for the correct order. 

Then, chapters 5 & 6 speak of a book of great importance.  But people get lost in the seals and forget the BOOK! It is the book that is most important, not the seals. The seals were probably demanded by Satan because he thought NO ONE could ever escape out of hell (defeat death) and be found worthy to take the book and open the seals! However, Jesus WAS found, and as soon as He rose from the dead and ascended, He got the book from the Father and began (right then) to open the seals.  My point here though is this: when the 7 seals are opened then the BOOK  is opened! John does not tell us this, but it is to be understood - else God wasted two chapters on the book! So in chapter 8, after the 7th seal, we understand the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments.

Of course, when people understand this, they see that it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to move the seals to later in the book. The seals have ONE PURPOSE: to stop anyone from opening the book (and starting the trumpets) until all 7 seals are opened. People should see now that a trumpet cannot be moved back to any of the seals! Again, impossible!

My recommendation: take the book in the same order it is written and BELIEVE it as written. Form doctrine from the book AS WRITTEN. In truth, it makes perfect sense as written.

One main point can be drawn from these posts: It is FAR BETTER to form doctrine from many verses taken and understood together than a few isolated posts that SEEM to tell a story, but the story does not line up with the many verses taken together. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by iamlamad

[Revelation Man]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Like many topics we discuss here on Worthy, we need to start and agree on a foundation first. The foundation of this subject seems to be whether or not we agree Revelation is written in chronological order with parenthetical chapters inserted. So from the very foundation we are split and go down the proverbial rabbit holes and try to 'prove' our view is the correct one. Just something I've noticed, myself included.

As far as the timing of the Rapture: I can't change anyone's convinced mind, nor others change my conviction. I see the preponderance of scriptural evidence overwhelmingly pointing to a pre signing of the covenant with the many by the Antichrist for the catching away of Christ's church [pretribulation]. Prophetically speaking, I suspect we are in for some surprises on some things we didn't see coming.

This OP was supposed to be about Trinagulation, but when I triangulated and showed that those in Rev. 7:14 can't be from the 70th week, he refused to acknowledge that trinagulation point. Which is why I did it, I knew by debating with him before he can't ever be swayed off a point. So I was basically showing him, {without him knowing it} that his trinagulation angle was only valid if he agreed with the outcome of the triangulated verses.

Notice I stopped replying to his posts. I was just proving a point to him, he has a grand idea, if hes willing to use it, as I have for 20 some odd years, but I was pretty sure if it comes up against his eschatology he would reject it or ignore it. If someone makes me think, by showing me a quandary, I go into to THOUGH MODE to try and solve the quandary, I can't accept unsolved problems, even if it moves me off of my thinking. 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

This OP was supposed to be about Trinagulation, but when I triangulated and showed that those in Rev. 7:14 can't be from the 70th week, he refused to acknowledge that trinagulation point. Which is why I did it, I knew by debating with him before he can't ever be swayed off a point. So I was basically showing him, {without him knowing it} that his trinagulation angle was only valid if he agreed with the outcome of the triangulated verses.

Notice I stopped replying to his posts. I was just proving a point to him, he has a grand idea, if hes willing to use it, as I have for 20 some odd years, but I was pretty sure if it comes up against his eschatology he would reject it or ignore it. If someone makes me think, by showing me a quandary, I go into to THOUGH MODE to try and solve the quandary, I can't accept unsolved problems, even if it moves me off of my thinking. 

RM,

Just like Iamlamad, I was trying to spare you the embarrassment of being proven wrong. Iamlamd still has not figured this out yet. Here is his Huge fallacy which I am posting here since he cannot admit defeat...

Did You just miss this HUGE Fallacy In Your theory....

Remember also, the seventh trumpet does not sound until after the two witnesses are resurrected (John's chronology). Well if the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, then.... Your theory has a HUGE logical hole in it. My Framework has no issue with this, and there is no need to add a parenthesis here.

I Honestly do not know why you cannot see this. YOU say the 7th trumpet is the mid point. JOHN in his chronology has the two witnesses being killed before the seventh trumpet. SIMPLE logic tells us that the two witnesses are killed and resurrected BEFORE the seventh Trumpet, MEANING their 1260 day ministry is in the first half of the week ASSUMING YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE SEVENTH TRUMPET BEING THE MIDPOINT OF THE FINAL WEEK. Otherwise you have to rearrange revelation, something which you yourself have said Is Wrong.

It is time to admit your obvious error that any intelligent person can clearly see in your theory. 

=================

You make the same Huge mistake in the following....

By getting the DATA POINT WRONG this takes us down wrong turns and thus creates wrong assumptions.

The 5th Seal lasts 42 months, as does the First 4 Seals. They are all opened on day 1261 within seconds of each other. 

1.) Seal 1 is the Anti-Christ being released to Conquer over a 42 month period of time.

2.) Seal 2 is the Beast taking Peace from the Earth via 42 months of war.

3.) Seal 3 is the Beast's Wars bringing Famine over a 42 month period.

4.) Seal 4 is the Beast bringing Sickness/Death to the earth over a 42 month period. 

5.) Seal 5 is the witness of the Martyrs unto the Beasts murder and mayhem of a 42 month period of time.

6.) Seal 6 is Gods Wrath being announced and it covers a 42 month period of time. 

All of these Seals are opened on day 1261, which leaves 1260 days of Wrath and of Beast Rule. These Seals are all opened within seconds of each other and all cover a 42 month period."

Your Error is different than Iamlamad, But the same fallacy applies. I was trying to spare you this embarrassment. With Iamlamad, I have proven that the 1260 days of the two witnesses comes before the 7th trumpet, The seals chronologically in Revelation come before the trumpets, and although I concede some overlap in my framework, they cannot be in the second half of the week starting on Day 1261. 

I Do agree with Your interpretation of the first five seals, But Again, I place this in the first half of the week. I also agree with Iamlamad that those seals were opened shortly after the resurrection of Christ, But they have been restrained (Think restrainer here) Your triangulation is a non argument because of this fallacy in your initial posting. I Gave you clues so that you could correct yourself, But they were not received. 

If you truly are searching for the Truth you will see this fallacy, Or you like Iamlamad can begin to place parenthesis all over the place in revelation at your convenience to make your theory fit. 

My Framework makes Rev. 7:14 speaking of the great tribulation without a doubt, But none of you have yet to even comprehend the scope of what I am trying to show you. Part of that is because you do not like the fact that it draws into question certain pet doctrines you hold. 

So Until you correct this fallacy in your theory it is not worth my time to debate you especially if you are unteachable like Iamlamad.

I am not saying this to be mean, for I long for interaction, because I do not have this all figured out yet. But there is one thing that is certain with me is that the great tribulation is the first half of the week. It has to be, and not just because of Rev. 7:14. I Highly doubt you have ever heard of triangulation until i brought it up here. If I am wrong forgive me for that assumprtion, But you definately do not understand how it works. The Data points confirm each other first and foremost, Not the conclusions derived from them. They give you direction as in navigation. The conclusions may be strengthened, But like Systematic theology the bias you bring in can influence your conclusions. Sytematic theology preaches broadening your world view in order to eliminate this Bias, With triangulation, I promote Pauline Ignorance an offshoot of Socratic ignorance, which is to Know nothing save Christ and Him crucified. Until you are capable of this, debating you and Iamlamad is not worth my time.

As I proof read this, I know this sounds very cocky on my part, It is not intended so please do not read that into it. I value interaction, I do not value preaching a pet doctrine. If You want to debate with me, you have to be willing to follow the facts wherever they may lead, even if they disagree with your pet doctrines. You can always go back to your pet doctrine, as I am not here to win followers or converts to my theory, But to arrive at the Truth wherever the truth may lead. Do You love the Truth?

 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)

 

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

RM,

Just like Iamlamad, I was trying to spare you the embarrassment of being proven wrong. Iamlamd still has not figured this out yet. Here is his Huge fallacy which I am posting here since he cannot admit defeat...

Did You just miss this HUGE Fallacy In Your theory....

Remember also, the seventh trumpet does not sound until after the two witnesses are resurrected (John's chronology). Well if the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, then.... Your theory has a HUGE logical hole in it. My Framework has no issue with this, and there is no need to add a parenthesis here.

Who says the 7th Trump is the Midway point ? Not me. Maybe this is you replying to Iamlamad. I agree, he has the Seals as being opened 2000 years ago, but just because he us off, has nothing to do with me, I could likewise say Iamlamad is off so that proves you are off, but that is not proper eschatology. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

You make the same Huge mistake in the following....

By getting the DATA POINT WRONG this takes us down wrong turns and thus creates wrong assumptions.

The 5th Seal lasts 42 months, as does the First 4 Seals. They are all opened on day 1261 within seconds of each other. 

1.) Seal 1 is the Anti-Christ being released to Conquer over a 42 month period of time.

2.) Seal 2 is the Beast taking Peace from the Earth via 42 months of war.

3.) Seal 3 is the Beast's Wars bringing Famine over a 42 month period.

4.) Seal 4 is the Beast bringing Sickness/Death to the earth over a 42 month period. 

5.) Seal 5 is the witness of the Martyrs unto the Beasts murder and mayhem of a 42 month period of time.

6.) Seal 6 is Gods Wrath being announced and it covers a 42 month period of time. 

All of these Seals are opened on day 1261, which leaves 1260 days of Wrath and of Beast Rule. These Seals are all opened within seconds of each other and all cover a 42 month period."

Your Error is different than Iamlamad, But the same fallacy applies. I was trying to spare you this embarrassment.

Your arrogance is very telling, its sad when one is both arrogant and wrong. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

With Iamlamad, I have proven that the 1260 days of the two witnesses comes before the 7th trumpet,

Again, proving him wrong means nothing does it, I know hes wrong also. That's like you telling me the name of the Hubble space craft, then trying to tell me about black holes and nebula's, knowing the name of a space craft doesn't mean you know about a nebula. Catch my drift ? 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The seals chronologically in Revelation come before the trumpets, and although I concede some overlap in my framework, they cannot be in the second half of the week starting on Day 1261

OK, we need to KNOW WHY, just saying that is not a reasoned logic. Here is what I think, I think you have a theory all worked out, and thus in order to keep that theory, you can't follow the clues unto where they actually lead, because the theory is more important than the facts, because of MAN'S PRIDE.

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Do agree with Your interpretation of the first five seals, But Again, I place this in the first half of the week. I also agree with Iamlamad that those seals were opened shortly after the resurrection of Christ,

Ahhhh, there we go, you see these Seals as being opened 2000 years ago, which basically no one else believes {save a few which can be 1000's of course, but in the reality of things it is a way, way, way low percentage}, I mean maybe 1 percent of Christendom believe this, I doubt its that high. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

But they have been restrained (Think restrainer here) Your triangulation is a non argument because of this fallacy in your initial posting. I Gave you clues so that you could correct yourself, But they were not received. 

Opened BUT restrained is just not sensible at all to me. The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit Working through the Church. Jesus OPENS but RESTRAINS defies logic brother. Its like me RELEASING a train then RESTRAINING it via another order if you catch my drift, the two orders defy all logic brother. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Your triangulation is a non argument because of this fallacy in your initial posting. I

Its not a fallacy, REMEMBER you are the one in the ONE PERCENT, not me. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I Gave you clues so that you could correct yourself, But they were not received. 

I don't accept erroneous concepts brother.

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

If you truly are searching for the Truth you will see this fallacy, Or you like Iamlamad can begin to place parenthesis all over the place in revelation at your convenience to make your theory fit. 

The Book of Revelation IS NOT in Chronological Order, and I think that he only has ONE Parenthetical Citation, and that is in Rev. 11, if I am not mistaken, I am on a whole NOTHER LEVEL on Parenthetical Citations........ I mean I have, chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 being Parenthetical Citations, he has a few verses in Rev. 11. I am the MASTER of Parenthetical Citations brother. BUT.........I am 100 percent correct on my understanding. 

So just call me KING PC Man. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

My Framework makes Rev. 7:14 speaking of the great tribulation without a doubt, But none of you have yet to even comprehend the scope of what I am trying to show you. Part of that is because you do not like the fact that it draws into question certain pet doctrines you hold. 

 

Well, I have proven that your understanding of those in Rev. 7:14 CAN NOT be Tribulation Martyrs. Its just a fact brother, Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 proves it. They can not come out of the 70th week, or the word is wrong in those two verses, and God can not be wrong. But of course those verses show us a Contradiction, when faced with a biblical contradiction, one has to solve the contradiction, because God is not confused. 

Its like Daniel 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 brother. One verse {Dan. 7:11} says the Beasts BODY is Destroyed and cast into Hell, the other verse {Rev. 19:20} says the Beast is CAST ALIVE into the lake of fire. So what gives ? I could just move on and say, well he goes to hell, but then one man would tell me the Beast is killed and cast into hell and another man would say, well the Anti-Christ is cast ALIVE into hell fire. So I had to RESOLVE the seeming contradiction.

First off, which verse is MOST MATTER OF FACT ? Daniel 7:11 says his body is DESTROYED and then hes cast into hell. So this sounds so matter of factly I chose to look at the other verse to see if I could find something that was slightly off kilter in the verse or if I could find a logical fallacy in that verse. So what happens to all the others killed at that time ? They are not raised up from the Grave until a 1000 years at the Second Death/Second Resurrection. But these two men are cast STRAIGHT INTO HELL. So were they cast alive into hell or were they killed ?

Hmmmmm. Firstly, all men must die before they can be judged according to God, It is given once for men to die, then the Judgment, so without dying they couldn't be properly judged according to God's own word. So I kept thinking, and thinking..........Hmmmmmmmm. Then it hit me, the Anti-Christ and False Prophet will be KILLED............But as soon as they die they will be taken to hell, they will NEVER be allowed to rest in the grave like the rest of humanity for the next 1000 years, they will be taken ALIVE as in our souls NEVER DIE, they only sleep !! Contradiction solved. That's the way you solve Contradictions, not by just saying I think I am right therefore it must be that way. 

Rev. 7:14 CAN NOT be Tribulation Martyrs, Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 proves that. Those in Rev. 7:14 came out of the Church Age, we see them in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened, during the first half of the 70th week, IN HEAVEN !! 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

So Until you correct this fallacy in your theory it is not worth my time to debate you especially if you are unteachable like Iamlamad.

 

Or how I was given a problem I couldn't Solve Alex, for 2000.

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I am not saying this to be mean, for I long for interaction, because I do not have this all figured out yet.

I actually do have it all figured out, after 25 years of not being able to figure it out God finally told me why people can't understand it.......We know it all already. Once I like a child started just asking God to show me instead of following men's ideas, it all came unto me. God showed me what everything in the book of Revelation means, save Rev. 10........LOL......See I don't claim what I don't know,  ch. 10 is a flash forward unto the end, but I haven't figured out its purpose just yet. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

But there is one thing that is certain with me is that the great tribulation is the first half of the week.

Therein lies your problem brother, you got the cart before the horse, you started out with the Seals in the 1st half of the week, I don't know why mind you, you just did. I haven't gotten that understanding yet from you. BUT...........Everything in the END TIMES revolves around the Middle of the week, or the 1260 Event. When that comes to people, they then usually get everything else pretty quickly. 

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

It has to be, and not just because of Rev. 7:14. I Highly doubt you have ever heard of triangulation until i brought it up here.

 Ever hear of Bill Clinton ? look up Bill Clinton and Triangulation !! I read a lot of stuff, I study things like in Science, the FIRST DAY lasted 9.2 Billion years, the dinos were wiped out 70 million years ago on the 5th Day. Water reflects light, that is why God speaks about Water in the first few verses. I do in depth on my studies brother. Its what I do brother. I love when God shows me I am wrong on something, that means I am LEARNING.  People need to learn how to accept that not knowing is not a bad thing per se.

Try to prove the Seals are in the first half of the week, it can't be done brother. 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Revelation Man

[dhchristian]

Like I said, You are not worthy of my efforts. 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I am not saying this to be mean, for I long for interaction, because I do not have this all figured out yet.

I actually do have it all figured out, after 25 years of not being able to figure it out

I will spare you the embarrassment. 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Book of Revelation IS NOT in Chronological Order, and I think that he only has ONE Parenthetical Citation, and that is in Rev. 11, if I am not mistaken, I am on a whole NOTHER LEVEL on Parenthetical Citations........ I mean I have, chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 10 being Parenthetical Citations, he has a few verses in Rev. 11. I am the MASTER of Parenthetical Citations brother. BUT.........I am 100 percent correct on my understanding. 

So just call me KING PC Man. 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Or how I was given a problem I couldn't Solve Alex for 2000.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 7:14 CAN NOT be Tribulation Martyrs, Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 proves that. Those in Rev. 7:14 came out of the Church Age, we see them in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened, during the first half of the 70th week. 

Sorry, But you have lost your marbles.... Alex 2000???? You have added to the book of revelation Parenthesis all over the place.... You make a counter argument that ties two passages together that are years apart, that is full of logical fallacies, You use the appeal to the fallacy ad populum rather than refuting my point, As I said, You are Just like Iamlamad, Unteachable. Just like the Pharisees who could not figure out who John the Baptist was because their framework did not understand who "the voice of one crying in the wilderness" was. And it is obvious you do not Love the Truth. 

2 Tim. 3:7-8

[Alive]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Nothing to keep you there? It's quail season son, don't talk like that.

 

[Alive]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Like I said, You are not worthy of my efforts. 

I will spare you the embarrassment. 

Sorry, But you have lost your marbles.... Alex 2000???? You have added to the book of revelation Parenthesis all over the place.... You make a counter argument that ties two passages together that are years apart, that is full of logical fallacies, You use the appeal to the fallacy ad populum rather than refuting my point, As I said, You are Just like Iamlamad, Unteachable. Just like the Pharisees who could not figure out who John the Baptist was because their framework did not understand who "the voice of one crying in the wilderness" was. And it is obvious you do not Love the Truth. 

2 Tim. 3:7-8

Wow! I freely admit that I am completely lost trying to follow you guys.

I had never heard the idea of the seals being opened 2000 years ago! That is a new one.

Do any of you guys place 70 AD (temple destruction) in Daniel or Revelation?

It just occurred to me that that event is something that can be pointed to as a sure thing.

[dhchristian]

57 minutes ago, Alive said:

Wow! I freely admit that I am completely lost trying to follow you guys.

I had never heard the idea of the seals being opened 2000 years ago! That is a new one.

Do any of you guys place 70 AD (temple destruction) in Daniel or Revelation?

It just occurred to me that that event is something that can be pointed to as a sure thing.

Luke21 early on refers to the destruction of the temple. And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Luke 21:5-6. 

Some Groups such as the SDA extend this discourse that includes the birth pangs to that time frame, Others such as Preterists amilleniallists think 70 ad is when the Abomination itself occurred. There are all kinds of theories out there.

My Personal advice to you is to read the Word of God and pray for Wisdom from God to understand these things. Let the Holy Ghost teach you, not men. For me, when I began on this journey, I laid aside all my preconceived understandings on end times that I was taught as a child And approached the topic of end time prophecy with Pauline ignorance which is the Christian version of Socratic ignorance, which allows you to arrive at the Truth. No Pet doctrines, no pet teachers, and willing to follow the facts wherever they may lead you.... In other words submitting to the leading of the Spirit of Truth, our teacher as we journey down this road. Along the way, you will find that some of your very methods of study, the carnal mind gets in the way as well, and you will be tempted by this human understanding to limit God, and place him into a box, But the sooner you get yourself out of the way, the sooner he can reveal you His Truths. This is Just like walking by faith in everyday life, when we are weak, he is strong.

God is so much bigger than our understanding can grasp, and so are his prophecies. This is the great blessing of studying prophecy  that it places our understanding into perspective in relation to God and his Wisdom. When You reach that point the Word of God comes alive, and you begin to see things you never imagined in the plan of God for Mankind, and you know there is no way I have the whole counsel of God. That is when the true fellowship of the saints begins. He is limitless, we are limited, and when we accept that we become teachable, like a child who hangs on every word spoken by the great Rabbi.... We have the mind of Christ!

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.... For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:14,16) 

 

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Wow! I freely admit that I am completely lost trying to follow you guys.

I had never heard the idea of the seals being opened 2000 years ago! That is a new one.

Do any of you guys place 70 AD (temple destruction) in Daniel or Revelation?

It just occurred to me that that event is something that can be pointed to as a sure thing.

Him and Iamlamad place the Seals as being opened by Jesus 2000 years ago, the Martyrs in Seal # 5 as being the Martyrs of the Church Age {at least I am pretty sure Iamlamad sees the Martyrs as the Church Age} and we are just waiting for the 6th Seal to be opened up as now we speak. They get this, at least Iamlamad does, from Rev. 5, where it says NO MAN was found in Heaven to open the Seals, thus he says he was not yet in Heaven....WATCH: I will bold their erroneous thinking in RED.

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Now I want to show where they go off kilter brother. They say that since NO MAN was found in Heaven as being WORTHY to open the Seals, BUT since an elder says in verse 5 that Jesus has now PREVAILED  and can now open the book, that means he was on earth dying on the cross, then became WORTHY to open the Seals. But do you see the ERROR brother ? If you mention it they will not reply. Its in BOLD RED right beside the NO MAN IN HEAVEN, it says NOR IN EARTH...........NEITHER UNDER THE EARTH. So by their own accounts, Jesus should be called "The Nowhere Man" because not only was he not in Heaven, but he was not on the earth NOR under the earth either, which of course means it was just PROSE, showing that Jesus was the LAMB of God, and was in Heaven all the time !! 

But they change all of eschatology, via ONE VERSE !! One verse that has the answer to it in the SAME VERSE, Jesus, if you believe the verse, was not on earth either !! So it was not a statement of fact, it was prose, as the bible is wont to use. It was God pointing out Jesus' Sacrifice as the Lamb made him WORTHY to open the Seals. That is all that is going on there. 

 

[The Light]

10 hours ago, Alive said:

Wow! I freely admit that I am completely lost trying to follow you guys.

I had never heard the idea of the seals being opened 2000 years ago! That is a new one.

Do any of you guys place 70 AD (temple destruction) in Daniel or Revelation?

It just occurred to me that that event is something that can be pointed to as a sure thing.

The seals are not open yet brother. The 1st six seals are the Trtibulation period.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

After the Tribulation, the wrath of God begins.

Rev 6

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?