BibleGuy Posted November 22, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, maryjayne said: Love is freely given. God gave us His Son, as a sacrifice, to free us from obligation. He did not oblige us to prove our love by doing things. We may be showing our love by freely offered acts and words. What is being said on this thread, by some, is the same as saying to a bride and groom that they have to obey a tick list of things in order to prove their marriage is real and valid and that they love each other. God wants us to love Him from our own free will, and do loving things out of the overflowing love we have. We have to prove nothing through deeds and words. It is sad that some can't see this, and follow a path of duty and observence and illogical, contradictory theology. Hi there! "He did not oblige us to prove our love by doing things." Oops! Now read Jn.14:15: "“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." That's obligation! They are COMMANDMENTS....not RECOMMENDATIONS..... " the same as saying to a bride and groom that they have to obey a tick list of things in order to prove their marriage is real and valid and that they love each other." Of COURSE! Love is PROVEN by WORKS (1Jn.3:18) and TRUTH (1Jn.3:18). Torah is truth (1Jn.3:18)....so love is proven in TORAH-OBEDIENCE. And what works should we DO? WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7), or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20). And TORAH should REBUKE and TRAIN and CORRECT our righteous behavior (2Ti.3:16;Dt.6:25) as an expression of our LOVE (Dt. 6:5). John agrees (1Jn.5:3). "God wants us to love Him from our own free will, and do loving things out of the overflowing love we have." Sure! And what THINGS should we be doing? Ah yes! TORAH! (Mt.5:19-20;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28;2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Dt. 6:5,25). "We have to prove nothing through deeds and words." OOPS! Love is proven by OBEDIENCE (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25). Ever notice you expressed your opinions, here, without any Scriptural support? Let's make sure we provide good BIBLICAL reasons to support our position.... Otherwise...you're just expressing opinions.....without any supporting evidence for them...... "It is sad that some can't see this, and follow a path of duty and observence and illogical, contradictory theology." It is SAD when people refuse to obey Torah (Lk.18:23). DUTY is required even in marriage (1Cor.7:3 "The husband must [fn]fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.") Jesus commands us to OBSERVE Torah-sanctioned judgments (Mt. 23:3 "therefore all that they tell you, do and observe"). Jesus commands that we OBSERVE ALL HIS COMMANDS! (Mt. 28:20 "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you") "illogical, contradictory theology." I'd say it's illogical to be a Christian who opposes duty, observance, obedience, Torah, and works....ALL of which are REQUIRED in the BIBLE! Let's stick to the Bible....not just our opinions or preferences.... Thanks. Edited November 22, 2019 by BibleGuy typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 22, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2019 2 hours ago, steve morrow said: IS NOT THE TORAH A COMPLETE BODY OF WORK --- THE WHOLE OF THE TEACHINGS FROM GENESIS TO DEUTERONOMY--- CAN ANYONE WHO LOVES NOT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST GET INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN--- *******1 CORINTHIANS 16:22 --IF ANY MAN-- LOVE NOT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST -- let him be anathema maranatha******* JOHN 14:24 ---HE THAT LOVETH ME NOT KEEPETH NOT MY SAYINGS---and the word which you hear is not mine but THE FATHERS which sent me PSALM 19:1 the heavens declare the glory of GOD and the firmament showeth HIS handiwork --day unto day uttereth speech and night unto night showeth knowledge --19:3--there is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard ROMANS 10:2 for I bear them record that they have a zeal of GOD ---BUT NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE ISAIAH 53:11 HE shall see of the travail of HIS soul and shall be satisfied ---BY HIS KNOWLEDGE SHALL MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT JUSTIFY MANY---for HE shall bear their iniquities *******LUKE 19:27 but those mine enemies --- WHICH WOULD NOT THAT I REIGN OVER THEM --- bring hither and slay them before ME******* ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ HEBREWS 7:11 if therefore perfection were by the levitical priesthood --- for under it the people received the law --- what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of melchisedec ---AND NOT BE CALLED AFTER THE ORDER OF AARON--- *******JOHN 8:7 so when they continued asking HIM HE lifted himself up and said unto them ---HE THAT IS WITHOUT SIN AMONG YOU --- let him first cast a stone at her******* MATTHEW 5:27 you have heard that it was said by them of old time ---THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY---5:28-- BUT I SAY--unto you that whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart MATTHEW 5:31 it hath been said whosoever shall put away his wife let him give her a writing of divorcement --5:32--BUT I SAY--unto you that whosoever shall put away his wife saving for the cause of fornication causeth her to commit adultery and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery MATTHEW 5:33 again you have heard that it hath been said by them of old time thou shalt not forswear thyself but shall perform unto THE LORD thine oaths --5:34 BUT I SAY unto you swear not at all neither by heaven for it is GODS THRONE MATTHEW 5:38 you have heard that it hath been said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth --5:39-- BUT I SAY unto you that you resist not evil but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek turn to him the other also _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 PETER 4:17 for the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of GOD and if it first begin at us what shall the end be of them that --- OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD --- 2 THESSALONIANS 1:7 and to you who are troubled --rest with us-- when THE LORD JESUS shall be revealed from heaven with HIS mighty angels --1:8-- in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that ---THAT KNOW NOT GOD --- AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST --- 1 JOHN 5:2 ---BY THIS WE KNOW --- that we love the children of GOD when we love GOD --- AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS 1 PETER 1:22 seeing you have purified your souls in ---OBEYING THE TRUTH--- THROUGH THE SPIRIT --- unto unfeigned love of the brethren see that you love one another with a pure heart fervently --1:23--BEING BORN AGAIN-- not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible --- BY THE WORD OF GOD --- which liveth and abideth for ever --1:24-- for all flesh is as grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass the grass withereth and the flower thereof falleth away 1 PETER 1:25 ---BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURETH FOREVER--- and this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST Well hey! That's all Bible! Can't argue with that! And if we love Jesus, we OBEY His commands (Jn.14:15)...and He commands Torah (Mt.5:19-20;23:2-3,23;Lk.10:25-28). blessings... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCoot Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,192 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 429 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/12/1957 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) The problem I see with some folks is viewing Torah as a rigid set of commandments, like say, the speed limit laws. Torah has its root in yara, which is more close to "teaching" or instruction. And when it comes to the commandments, there are 613. Not all of them apply to everyone. Torah is guidance and instruction. And within it, it teaches us of the Messiah, just as He said.... the Torah is written of Him. One can see that applied even in what Yeshua (Jesus) said when on the cross. He applied the Torah to each and every one of us. When Yeshua on the cross said "Father forgive them for they know to what they do", He was referring to Numbers 35. If a person is guilty of murder, he is executed by the next of kin, the avenger of blood. But If that person is guilty of unintended murder, what we would call manslaughter, he could flee to a city of refuge and be protected from the avenger of blood. He would remain there until the death of the high priest and was free to go. Though we are all guilty of the murder of Yeshua because of our sin, He declared the we are only guilty of manslaughter in that we didn't know what we were doing..... it was unintentional. Therefore to be protected from the Avenger of Blood (the Father) we flee to our city of refuge (the Messiah) and we are forever protected from the wrath of the Father. Yeshua is our High Priest and never will die again, so we are forever protected. This is how the Torah should be viewed. It teaches us of the Messiah. The Torah is freedom when properly applied. When improperly applied, it becomes a weight on our backs that will crush us. This is why Peter at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, and James later affirmed, said what he did regarding the Torah. That putting a set of rigid commandments on people is a burden that even they and their ancestors could not bear. They understood the difference between the Torah being instruction and guidance, teaching of the Messiah, and a rigid set of commandments that gets twisted into a burden on people. It is why David could extol the Torah and talk about how he delighted in the Torah. How the Torah is greater than gold or silver. He didn't see it as rigid set of rules like government regulations.... LAW. He saw it as guidance and instruction of a loving God. But some still see the Torah as a set of rigid conditions. Edited November 23, 2019 by OldCoot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.88 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, OldCoot said: The problem I see with some folks is viewing Torah as a rigid set of commandments, like say, the speed limit laws. Torah has its root in yara, which is more close to "teaching" or instruction. And when it comes to the commandments, there are 613. Not all of them apply to everyone. Torah is guidance and instruction. And within it, it teaches us of the Messiah, just as He said.... the Torah is written of Him. One can see that applied even in what Yeshua (Jesus) said when on the cross. He applied the Torah to each and every one of us. When Yeshua on the cross said "Father forgive them for they know to what they do", He was referring to Numbers 35. If a person is guilty of murder, he is executed by the next of kin, the avenger of blood. But If that person is guilty of unintended murder, what we would call manslaughter, he could flee to a city of refuge and be protected from the avenger of blood. He would remain there until the death of the high priest and was free to go. Though we are all guilty of the murder of Yeshua because of our sin, He declared the we are only guilty of manslaughter in that we didn't know what we were doing..... it was unintentional. Therefore to be protected from the Avenger of Blood (the Father) we flee to our city of refuge (the Messiah) and we are forever protected from the wrath of the Father. Yeshua is our High Priest and never will die again, so we are forever protected. This is how the Torah should be viewed. It teaches us of the Messiah. The Torah is freedom when properly applied. When improperly applied, it becomes a weight on our backs that will crush us. This is why Peter at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and James later ruled said what they did regarding the Torah. That putting a set of rigid commandments on people is a burden that even they and their ancestors could not bear. They understood the difference between the Torah being instruction and guidance, teaching of the Messiah, and a rigid set of commandments that gets twisted into a burden on people. It is why David could extol the Torah and talk about how he delighted in the Torah. How the Torah is greater than gold or silver. He didn't see it as rigid set of rules like government regulations.... LAW. He saw it as guidance and instruction of a loving God. But it seems, many still want to put a yoke of burden on others and lay a guilt trip on them if they do not ceremonially follow Torah as a rigid set of rules they are not in line with the Lord. Those that do that to others have no real grasp of what the Torah is. Absolutely brilliant.....thanks......will it get through to those that are stiff-necked? Not a chance......just watch... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2019 Let's please remember to keep it civil. People are removed from threads because of getting personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Why did the Lord have the temple destroyed in 70AD? Prior to that, why did He tear the veil? Why did He separate early believers from the synagogue system subsequent to Rome no longer thinking of Christianity as a Jewish sect? Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.88 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2019 I’ll repeat it again......The Torah is great as an instruction manual for living a life of wisdom.....as Paul said , the Law is good if used properly.....that proper use of the Torah is to shut you up when you realize you can’t keep it and give you that “ woe is me, I am unclean” moment , that “ lightbulb” moment where you see you are a hopeless, helpless sinner that MUST have a Savior.Other than that, trying to use obedience to the Torah to be saved or stay saved, it is worthless .To summarize— Torah is great if you know how to use it.....it just doesn’t save.Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus and your Trust in that will save. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted November 23, 2019 (edited) In my view--if you are saved you are saved. What pushing the law and legalism does is confuse the saved and is a barrier to entering His rest and enjoying the inheritance of sons. Trying to keep 'law' won't unsafe you, but will make life more difficult than needs be. All that talk of the beauty of Torah and such is wonderful as the psalmist said--'Sweeter than honey', but in terms of our walking with the Lord in this Church Age, the Lord has moved on from there to a different place. Everything since Pentecost moves on from the physical to the spiritual. From the types and the tutor to the real and the new heart of flesh via a New Nature. I died and yet I live. The law is beautiful as is the psalms and prophets and there is much to learn there-- in that every bit of it speaks of 'now' and moving on to a very different footing. to add for clarity He rescued us from being bound to the principle agency of 'law' and death to the principle agency of Grace and Life. They are as different as life is from death. Edited November 23, 2019 by Alive 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne222 Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 32 Topic Count: 476 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 6,559 Content Per Day: 2.28 Reputation: 7,638 Days Won: 9 Joined: 06/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2019 The torah is not for us to live by. The just shall live by faith. And that faith is in the name of Jesus. We are commanded to love one another and to believe in the name of jesus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne222 Posted November 23, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 32 Topic Count: 476 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 6,559 Content Per Day: 2.28 Reputation: 7,638 Days Won: 9 Joined: 06/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 23, 2019 On 11/22/2019 at 11:20 AM, BibleGuy said: Well hey! That's all Bible! Can't argue with that! And if we love Jesus, we OBEY His commands (Jn.14:15)...and He commands Torah (Mt.5:19-20;23:2-3,23;Lk.10:25-28). blessings... He does not command torah for the new covenant in christ. He commands us to believe in jesus and love one another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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