Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

[Alive]

Praise the Lord!

[WilliamL]

On 12/3/2019 at 3:50 PM, dhchristian said:

No where in the Old testament are the saints called to endure. Yet there the saints are, on earth all the way to chapter 14. Here is the List of them. (Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4, 11:18, 13:7-10, 14:12.)

The saints are also mentioned in Rev. 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9, But none of these mention endurance, and are primarily looking back at the blood of the saints in relation to judgment. So clearly there is a dividing line there. Now If Israel are the saints in revelation, then their restoration would take place at the beginning of the final week, But every prophecy in the Old testament tells us they will drink of the cup of the Wrath of God until Drunk, before the LORD spares them. Meaning that their restoration and sainthood will not happen until some time in the middle to end of the week.

When you make such blanket statements such as that in red, there is really no reason to try to debate with you. Your statement is belied merely by this one OT verse alone:

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

This is true repentance. Not drunkenness. At the time of the Rapture, when Jesus appears to "every eye."

[WilliamL]

On 12/4/2019 at 8:13 AM, iamlamad said:

WHEN will Paul's rapture take place? Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST before wrath. We see God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, so Paul's rapture (the rapture of the Gentile church of today) will be just before the 6th seal and Day of the Lord. This is plain in scripture.  It is almost impossible to see with thick preconceived glasses.

Answer: No, the 6th Seal comes before the Rapture.

Matt. 24:29 "“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven..."

The heavenly and earthly cataclysms of the 6th Seal are the very same as those of Matt. 24:29. And they come AFTER the tribulation. How anyone can miss this must be wearing "thick preconceived glasses."

 

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ  WHICH return? He is coming twice more. It is impossible to squeeze two scriptural comings into one - although SO MANY try. Paul tells us He is coming NEXT FOR the Gentile church (1 Thes 4 & 5). He will then come WITH the Gentile church as shown in Rev. 19, over 7 years later.

there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.  This will be His THIRD coming; coming WITH the Gentile church what was raptured 7 years before.  I also disagree with this concept: There is no "rapture" in Rev. 19. If I have missed it, please point it out. He is coming to Armageddon, to fight, not to catch people up. 

Answer: Yes, there is no rapture in Rev. 19; I never said or implied any such thing. There is no denominated 7-year period in the End Times, only a 3-1/2 year period.

 

Pre-wrath, but post-trib.  Pre wrath is scriptural, post trib is not. 

Answer: Pre-wrath is one interpretation of post-trib., as I pointed out before. Sorry you can't understand something so simple.

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/4/2019 at 8:53 AM, iamlamad said:

It seems much of the church world associate "the tribulation" with "the 70th week." Both Daniel and Jesus spoke of an event called the abomination of desolation. Daniel tells us such an event will divide the week.

Answer: He did no such thing. That is total presumption on your part. The 7oth week of Daniel 9 is historical, and has nothing to do at all with the End Times. Daniel 9 mentions NOTHING AT ALL about the End Times. Daniel 11:40 does.

He backs that up with two times mentioning "time, times, and half of time" or 3.5 years. John backs this half week up 5 more times, in days, in months and in years.  Therefore, we can be ABSOLUTELY SURE that there will be a week of 7 years, and two half weeks of 3.5 years.  Another verse calls this time "Jacob's trouble." We know Jacob had to work an extra 7 years for the woman he loved. 

Therefore I cannot understand why anyone would make such a statement: "Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people."  Can you show us any kind of special "tribulation" in Revelation that is NOT INSIDE the 70th week of Daniel? Please, show us scripture.  

Answer: You are locked into your presumption of Daniel's 70th week being in the End Times, like so many, but have presented no conclusive evidence at all to support it. You and so many others just state this doctrine of men as a fact. And then you all build your eschatologies upon this untested foundation, which foundation is, I predict, going to collapse in your faces.

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/9/2019 at 9:46 AM, OldCoot said:

The "church" by definition is those who have trusted Yeshua, been justified, and have passed from death to life.  There is no reason to judge them.  

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

You cannot fall away from something you were never a part of. The church will be tested during the Tribulation; some will fall away. Some have already fallen away.

[WilliamL]

On 12/4/2019 at 8:13 AM, iamlamad said:

First, Jesus said the days of GT would come AFTER the abomination.

Check.

Jesus also told people to FLEE when they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of MUST COME after Rev. 12:6.

Check.

But, John does not tell us about the mark and the image until chapter 13, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of must come after chapter 13! But, God does not give His warning about taking the mark until chapter 14, so we can KNOW (no Doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of cannot come until AFTER the warning in chapter 14.

Nonsense. Apples and oranges. The mark and the image are post-trib and post-rapture. 2 Thes. 2's Son of Perdition is pre-trib. The SoP is not the Beast, which is a fallen angel. The Son of Perdition is a man.

Revelation 12-14  are topical, not sequential.

 

 

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

You cannot fall away from something you were never a part of. The church will be tested during the Tribulation; some will fall away. Some have already fallen away.

That letter was written to Hebrews, not the church.  The name if the book says that.  If you think it is for the believing church,  then you feel that if someone turns from the Lord, they can never be renewed again.  That is not so. Yeshua was always talking about lost sheep, prodigal sons, etc.   there is always renewal available for one who turns away.

If you look at the preceding text of Hebrews, the writer is taking great pains to explained how Yeshua (Jesus) is greater than Moses, the Torah, Angels, the Patriarchs, etc.  if these folks were already believers, they would already know that and it would be silly to explain it in such detail again. 
 

what is going on in Chapter 6 is quite simple.  The writer is Hebrew.  The audience is Hebrew.  What he is explaining is that Yeshua is greater than all these things and now that they have been enlightened and know this, if they turn away from that truth there is no other means of redemption.   It is their one shot.  Nothing else will save them.

”tasted of the heavenly gift” is similar to Yeshua “tasting” the wine/gall offered Him while on the Cross.  He did not take it in.  Likewise, these Hebrews the letter had been written to had not taken in or accepted the Gospel of Yeshua, the Heavenly Gift.

the book is an exceptional example of scripture apologetics.  It makes one of the best cases for who Yeshua is and how the Hebrews should turn to Him.  I am convinced it will be one of the foundational books during the tribulation period or “time of Jacob’s trouble” per Jeremiah 

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

When you make such blanket statements such as that in red, there is really no reason to try to debate with you. Your statement is belied merely by this one OT verse alone:

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

This is true repentance. Not drunkenness. At the time of the Rapture, when Jesus appears to "every eye."

Read Isaiah 51.... 

God Bless. 

[WilliamL]

9 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

If you look at the preceding text of Hebrews, the writer is taking great pains to explained how Yeshua (Jesus) is greater than Moses, the Torah, Angels, the Patriarchs, etc.  if these folks were already believers, they would already know that and it would be silly to explain it in such detail again. 
 

what is going on in Chapter 6 is quite simple.  The writer is Hebrew.  The audience is Hebrew.  What he is explaining is that Yeshua is greater than all these things and now that they have been enlightened and know this, if they turn away from that truth there is no other means of redemption.   It is their one shot.  Nothing else will save them.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

THIS is context of the passage I quoted from Heb. 6:4-6: foundational church doctrines, starting with the "milk" doctrines back in verse 5:12.  Not Moses and the Torah -- the Church of Christ.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Revelation 12-14  are topical, not sequential.

Says WHO? Both are just after the midpoint of the week.