Does Daniel 9:26b-27 Prophesy About End Time Events?

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Now this is a new one! I have never heard before.

To be clear--are you saying that you think all of the events in Revelations have already happened?

Revelation has mostly happened. There are a few outliers but it is mostly written as an apocalyptic set of visions that are not literal, but symbolic. Telling one from another is possible but like so many parts of the scriptures, there is more impact if a vision or set of visions are not dissected in too literal a fashion. John seems to have been a 'numbers' guy as well and some of his alliterations are quite phenomenal in description considering he did not have a modern scientific mind like we do. We often take the figurative and mainline on literal interpretations which may pose more questions than the passage requires. We must understand his level of knowledge and his world-view and those of the folk he was writing to. Revelation was written for them and not us. We have to get into his 'head' and understand current Jewish thought and theology of the inter-testament period. We have to read what he read to get a better idea of his very poetic and deep thought processes. We should know what he understood. His bible was the Septuagint and included many of the books discovered at Qumran. Books that our churches have disavowed mostly. The same goes for Yeshua and the apostles who can be seen to quote from the Septuagint AND other sources. We have become less supernatural in outlook and way to prosaic much of the time. Thus we may miss many hints and innuendos that a clever writer means for us to understand.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Justin Adams

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Revelation 1:1 King James Version (KJV). 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John...

Daniel's vision(s) was finished at the Cross and Pentecost. Revelation happened by 70 AD. Read Josephus' account of the fall of Jerusalem. Tribulation like never before seen and complete destruction plus millions killed and carried away. (Matt 24)

70 AD vs. ~90 AD?

[Justin Adams]

7 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

70 AD vs. ~90 AD?

Difficult to know for sure as Roman history is misquoted I think by the church fathers...

[Last Daze]

Just now, Justin Adams said:

Difficult to know for sure as Roman history is misquoted I think by the church fathers...

If the Revelation took place ~90 AD, how could it be foretelling events of 70 AD?  Wouldn't that be history at that point?

[Justin Adams]

11 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

If the Revelation took place ~90 AD, how could it be foretelling events of 70 AD?  Wouldn't that be history at that point?

Things were slow in those days. As far as we seem to know, John wrote in Aramaic as there have been found fragments in the eastern church areas. It was probably transcribed into Greek later, so the timeline is confusing. The church fathers also confuse the reigning ruler and that gets associated to his end of exile incorrectly. So the questionable points are understood to mainly originate with when it was written and not when John died. Quite confusing really.

John begins by saying, 'these things are soon coming to pass' lends credence to Fall of Jerusalem scenario also alluded to by Yeshua, 'this generation shall not pass before..'

P.s. Revelation was nearly left out of the canon... much discussion and arguments over it.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

Referring to verses 4-31 from Matt 24, inclusive, the generation that sees all these things is the one in view. Since Jesus has not returned as of 12-14-19 none of verses 4-31 has occurred in the context of the end of the age.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Diaste

[Revelation Man]

On 12/12/2019 at 3:15 PM, WilliamL said:

Time for those of you who keep saying that the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 is a prophecy about the End Times to make your case, both scripturally and historically. Should be interesting.

I hold the view, because the preponderance of evidence supports it, that the 70th week was fulfilled in the first century AD, and has nothing to do with the End Times. As the following posts from my blog show:

 

Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Daniel 9:26b “…and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with a flood of attackers, and unto an end of battle/warfare, desolations being decreed. 27 And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week; and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer, even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:  and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Why would it say the people of the prince that is to come ? It means the European/Roman people of the Prince that is to come {2000 years later during the 70th week}, will DESTROY the City and Sanctuary and the end thereof is a flood {of an Army}. AND HE.........The prince to come later [2000 years later as we know now or close to that since the end is nigh} we make AGREEMENTS with Israel and THE MANY.

We know when the AoD is by looking at the Times of Troubles in Matt. 24:15-21 and comparing it to Daniel 12:1-2 which says the Times of Troubles is at the VERY END when the people are RAISED up and JUDGED.

So just because some people can't grasp prophecy on full doesn't change what the prophecies mean.

[WilliamL]

On 12/12/2019 at 4:52 PM, dhchristian said:

Sorry, But your theory does not account for verse 24.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 

Has Israel finished the transgression yet? What transgression? The Piercing of Messiah (Zech. 12:10).

Have they made an end to sins? No, they still do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

Have they made reconciliation for Iniquity? They have not received Jesus as the Messiah, so no not yet.

Have they Brought everlasting righteousness? They will when Christ rules in the millennium.

Have they sealed up prophecy and vision? No Many prophecies remain yet to be fulfilled such as Ezekiel 37-39.

Have they anointed a most Holy (Place)? No, because there is no temple in Jerusalem. 

All of these things are yet future,

Sorry, but all of these things have been fulfilled. As shown in the first post of my series on Daniel. Here is most of it. "What transgression?" See below, second section. Further elicited in my subsequent articles on the history of Daniel 8.

Daniel 9:24

שָׁבֻעִים/weeks שִׁבְעִים/seventy נֶחְתַּךְ/have been decreed/determined [Niphal verb stem (passive voice) Perfect (completed action)] עַֽל־/upon עַמְּךָ/thy people [ךָ: second masc. sing. (2ms) suffix, “of thee, thy”] וְעַל־/and upon [ו: a prefix-conjunction meaning “and, but, even,” etc., according to context] עִיר/city קָדְשֶׁךָ/holy of thee…

“Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city…”

Comment: Note that this prophecy is only for “thy people” – the Middle Eastern remnant of Judah and Israel – and for Jerusalem.

*          *          *

…לְכַלֵּא/in order to utterly restrain/restrict [Piel verb stem (intensive) Infinitive Construct; with prefix ל: “in order to, for the purpose of”] הַפֶּשַׁע/the rebellion/transgression/apostasy [ה: prefix meaning “the”]…

“…(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy…”

Comment: כלא does not mean “finish,” despite what many translations say. (That is the meaning of the similar Hebrew word כלה.) Also, “the rebellion/transgression/apostasy” is speaking of a specific revolt against authority, not merely sin/transgression in general; in that case, the prefix ה/“the” would not be used.

The specific rebellion/פשע being referred to is the culminating apostasy of the Jewish nationʼs priesthood and people, the פשע/pesha originally spoken of in Daniel 8:12, 13, 23. That pesha was the focus of Danielʼs “vision in the beginning” (9:21), for which Gabriel originally had been sent to him to explain. 8:16 In Daniel 9, Gabriel has returned “to make you skillful of understanding…[of] the vision” of Daniel 8. 9:22-23

This transgression of the priesthood took place when Syrian King Antiochus Epiphanes, after being bribed, removed Onias III, the pious High Priest over the Jewish people, and installed his apostatizing brother Jason in the latter 170s B.C. Jason promoted Greek religious and social customs. See Antiochus Ephiphanes and the End Times, Part 1. 1 Maccabees 2:15 calls the subsequent debasement of the priesthood, Temple, and people “the apostasy” [apostasia]. Continuing corruptions of the priesthood, including bribes, took place during the later time of Roman rule. Jesus condemned these things, and prophesied the desolation of the religious establishment and the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple because of it. Matt. 23, esp. vs. 35-39. More on this later.

*          *          *

…[Kethib:] ולחתם/and in order to close up/seal up [Qal verb stem (basic) Infinitive with ל prefix]; [Qere:] ולהתם/and in order to cause to complete [Hiphil verb stem (causative) Infinitive with ל prefix] [Kethib:] חטאות/sins/sin offerings [plural]; [Qere:] חטאת/sin(-fulness)/sin offering [singular]…

“…and (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings; or and (in order) to cause to complete sin(-fulness)/sin offering…”

Comment: This phrase contains two textual variants, the only ones found throughout verses 24-27. Kethib refers to the original written text; Qere refers to the generally-preferred amended text that is read aloud in synagogues.

The term for sin/sinfulness/sin offering is at the root of the variant readings. The Kethib reading – “to close up/seal up sins or sin offerings” – presents some problems for the Jewish faith:

1) something closed or sealed can be reopened (if referring to sinfulness), and

2) if sin offerings on the altar are meant, that would mean the end of orthodox, Temple-centered Jewish religion, something unthinkable for most Jews of that era. In fact, that is exactly what occurred in 70 A.D. – but more on this later.

On the other hand, the preferred Qere reading – “to cause to complete sin or sinfulness” – is more in line with the Jewish belief that their coming Messiah, referred to in verse 26, is to deliver Israel from its sinfulness:

Isaiah 27:9 …the iniquity of Jacob shall be covered.

Likewise, this was the belief of the first-century followers of Jesus –

Luke 24:21 …we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel.

– and thus the Qere version of this phrase is found in most Christians translations. Both Jew and Christian have read into this what they prefer to find. However, other prophecies tell us that sinning will remain on earth until it is destroyed at the end of the Millennium, so the Kethib reading “to close up sin offerings” makes the most scriptural and historical sense. See Is. 65:20; Zech. 14:17-19; Rev. 20:7-11.

*          *          *

…וּלְכַפֵּר/and in order to utterly atone for [Piel Infin. Constr. with ל prefix] עָוֹן/iniquity וּלְהָבִיא/and in order to cause to bring in [Hiphil Infin. with ל prefix] צֶדֶק/righteousness עֹֽלָמִים/everlasting…

“…and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and (in order) to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness…”

Comment: These things were undeniably accomplished by the Law-fulfilling sacrifice of the blood of Jesus: it made full atonement for sin, and brought everlasting righteousness to the believer.

*          *          *

…וְלַחְתֹּם/and (in order) to close/seal up [Qal Infin. Constr. with ל prefix] חָזֹון/vision וְנָבִיא/and prophecy…

“…and in order to close up vision and prophecy…”

Comment: Old Testament prophecy – that of Daniel’s people – ended at John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:13: “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”

Luke 16:16: “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.”

Old Testament prophets had the Holy Spirit “come upon” them. Beginning at John, prophets were “filled with the Holy Spirit.” The latter phrase is never used in the Old Testament, and the former is never used in the New. The old manner of prophesying had been closed up. However, the Latter Day acts of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-6 are comparable to former acts of the prophets Moses and Elijah, so what was closed up may be restored in the future.

*          *          *

…וְלִמְשֹׁחַ/and in order to anoint [Qal Infin. Constr. with ל prefix] קֹדֶשׁ/a Holy One קָֽדָשִֽׁים/of Holy Ones.

“…and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

Comment: Most translations erroneously add “the” – “the Most Holy” – which is incorrect, and leads to all kinds of false presumptions and speculations. The Hebrew prefix ה/“the” IS used when the Old Testament speaks about the Most Holy Place of the Temple. E.g. Ex. 26:33-34; 1 Kings 6:16; 7:50; 8:6; 1 Chr. 6:49; 2 Chr. 4:22; 5:7; Ezek. 41:4. But here an ה is notably omitted, because this phrase is yet another prophecy about the coming Messiah, not about a building. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit in its fullness, and thereby became the Melchizedek-order High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary. John 3:34-35; Heb. 5:5-10; 8:1-2

Summary

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy,

and (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings or (in order) to cause to complete sin/sin offering,

and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and (in order) to close up vision and prophecy,

and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

God provided this prophecy via Daniel to Jews living under the Law of Moses. Nothing in verse 24 makes any reference to the Church or to the End Times.

Gabriel has returned to provide Daniel further understanding about the consequences of his peopleʼs future pesha/rebellion against Godʼs law, which pesha was first shown to Daniel in his visionary revelation of Daniel 8.

 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/12/2019 at 7:39 PM, Da Puppers said:

I think that you need to read Jeremiah 25.  The context of Daniel 9 is that Darius sits as the installed king over the realm of the Chaldeans.  

Complete nonsense. The context of Daniel 9 is that of Gabriel returning to explain to Daniel his visions of Daniel 8. Daniel fainted at the time, and so Gabriel returned later “to make you skillful of understanding…[of] the vision” of Daniel 8. 9:22-23.

The vision of Daniel 8 concerned the overthrow of the Persian empire by the Greeks, and the ensuing pesha/apostasy of the Aaronic priesthood that was prophesied to take place during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes.

A two-article series explaining the history of Daniel 8 can be found beginning here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

 

[WilliamL]

On 12/16/2019 at 10:45 PM, Revelation Man said:

Why would it say the people of the prince that is to come ? It means the European/Roman people of the Prince that is to come {2000 years later during the 70th week}, will DESTROY the City and Sanctuary and the end thereof is a flood {of an Army}. AND HE.........The prince to come later [2000 years later as we know now or close to that since the end is nigh} we make AGREEMENTS with Israel and THE MANY.

A common view, but based on a misunderstanding of the context. This is from part 5 of my series of articles on Daniel 9:24-27. Note the part in red:

And now we come to what may be the most variously translated – and mistranslated – verse of the Bible, Daniel 9:27. To quote from Part 1: “The translatorʼs dilemma is compounded when he has no clear understanding of the doctrine or prophecy being expressed! In such cases, the interpretation often reflects the presumptions of the translator.” Well, a plethora of presumptions have been inserted into the various translations of verse 27. The translation below will strictly follow the rules of biblical Hebrew grammar.

*          *          *

וְהִגְבִּיר/And he shall cause to prevail/confirm; or, And he shall make strong [Hiphil Perfect 3ms with וְ/vav consecutive prefix] בְּרִית/a covenant לָרַבִּים/for the multitude שָׁבוּעַ/week אֶחָד/one…

“And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week…”

Comment: A vav consecutive, also called a vav relative, is an unusual convention in Hebrew that changes a Perfect verb (completed action) into the effect of an Imperfect verb (incomplete action). They are commonly found, as here, at the beginning of a verse or phrase to continue a future tense sequence, the “consecutive,” the “relationship.” In this case, the narrative begins with the previous Hiphil Imperfect verb in verse 26, which is future tense: יַשְׁחִית/“he shall cause to destroy.” The narrative then continues in verse 27 with other future actions of the same “he.” The same man who is to cause the destruction of Jerusalem and Sanctuary also, as part of his actions, both causes [Hiphil] to confirm (or make) a covenant; and, as shown below, is the cause [Hiphil] of the cessation of blood sacrifices.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

 

The context of the original Hebrew denies the possibility of any 2000-year separation between the events of verses 26 and 27. If there was no vav consecutive verb at the beginning of verse 27, then the Perfect tense of הִגְבִּיר would require the verb to be in the past tense, because Perfect tense means completed action. Therefore, this would read "he caused to prevail."

Therefore, either הִגְבִּיר is past tense and historical, or it is future tense -- the Perfect verb being changed by the vav consecutive to the effect of an Imperfect/uncompleted action verb, thus future tense.

Either way, your interpretation loses out, because either way, "the ruler, the one coming in" must be the one continuing to act both in verses 26b and 27.

Unless you want to believe that Gabriel spoke bad Hebrew.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by WilliamL