Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[JoeCanada]

17 minutes ago, Alive said:

Does it seem reasonable that it would take more than a single day to load all of those critters and get them settled into their respective places?

Hey Alive,

It would certainly seem reasonable, given that the ark was about the length of 3 football fields and 3 stories high. Heck, it probably took him the better part of a day just to find his wife...."Hey honey, you up here?....guess not, "are you in here"....nope, "are you down stairs?....nope, "are you in the stern?......Bahahahaha.....

[Alive]

Sometimes common sense and the 'Paraclete' are on the same page.

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

This truth cannot be swept under the rug. It must guide our understanding of the story. It's a strong conclusion, arranging the timeline.

The truth is not swept under the rug. Here's the truth

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Not sure how you can draw a different conclusion than what is clearly presented in the Word.

[The Light]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

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What is your point here? Why is it so important Noah was in the ark for 7 days prior? 

It is important because the ark door is closed 7 days before the flood. There will be many that will say Lord, Lord open up. But the doors will be closed and many will be in the tribulation.

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I agree; but a lack of evidence against is not evidence for. When there is textual evidence of a clearly defined event answering all the important evidence gathering questions, then that event is the actual occurrence. Pretrib gathering lacks this evidence in toto. Not so the gathering in Matt 24, supported by 2 Thess 2, and described in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. All this gives us the picture of the event including timing. 

There is plenty of evidence for a pre trib rapture. You just overlook it all. Why do you group 1 thes 4 with 1 Cor 15. In 1 Thes 4 we see that the LORD HIMSELF will descend. In 1 Cor 15 we see that He will send his angels. Not the same event. Additionally, we know that blindness in part happens to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. How does the fullness of the Gentiles come in?>

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Apologies if I wasn't clear. The 2nd coming is the return of Jesus. The gathering is the collecting of the saints, the elect, both alive and dead at the time of the second coming. Both events linked forever in the same time/space moment. In truth I don't reject evidence. I reject any conclusion not found in the relevant text. In this case a pretrib gathering lacks fact where a post trib/prewrath gathering is in view according to the textual evidence; and it's explicit statements, not implied then inference drawn to fit a preconception.

The gathering that you see in Matthew 24 is not when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth. The gathering occurs just before the wrath of God begins. At the end of wrath the kingdom will be set up.

In such an hour as you think not, the son of man cometh.

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There is no connection. It's the same as saying 'A' then 'B', therefore 'C'. Either 'A' or 'B' could be false or lack proof. Here the logic does not follow. A non event cannot be hard evidence for or against another event. It's the same as saying, "Our flight was canceled, but that doesn't mean a cow didn't jump over the moon." A lack of evidence proves nothing; it's just an opening to create fact to fit a pre-manufactured conclusion.

My point is, just because we can prove that the standard pre trib model is wrong, that does not prove that the is not a pre trib rapture.

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You brought up evidence that doesn't exist, so then, what evidence does exist for the pretrib doctrine?

The feasts of Israel is all the evidence that you need. They paint the picture of what is to come.

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To clarify; wrath does occur sometime within the 70th week. It's just going to be after the A of D at some yet to be determined moment. Near to the end of the week perhaps. In the last year, maybe. But that's speculative.

No, wrath does not occur during the 70th week. The 70th week ends with the gathering which we see in Matt 24 and Rev 6.  The 70 week will be over when the pre wrath rapture occurs, which is the gathering. God's people are not appointed to wrath.

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by The Light

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

The truth is not swept under the rug. Here's the truth

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Not sure how you can draw a different conclusion than what is clearly presented in the Word.

Because you are cherry picking one line that makes a case for you.

But keep reading.....verse 11 ....."In the 600th year, 2nd month, 17th  day.....on the same day the fountains of the deep burst open"  On what same day? The 17th day!

Keep reading.....verse 12....the rain fell for 40 days/nights

Keep reading.... verse 13....."On the very same day Noah and company entered the ark"......What  same day? ......Its the same day from verse 11, the same day that the fountains burst. 

Keep reading......verse 14....."they and every beast after its kind"

Keep reading...verse 15 ...."so they went into the ark to Noah"

Keep reading.....verse 16.... " entered as God has commanded him......"the Lord shut them in"

Keep reading....verse 17.....'Then the flood came"

There are many verses after verse 10. You have to read them all to get the full picture.

Noah and crew entered the ark for the last time on the same day as the flood started. ....Verse 7 backs that up......"Then Noah and crew entered the ark because of the flood"

And of course Noah obeyed God and entered the ark seven days before the flood, for the first time, to begin loading. 

"Noah, enter the ark, take the animals with you, because in 7 more days I will bring a flood and kill everything. And he did all that the Lord commanded. 

ALL that the Lord commanded......We don't really know what was involved with the command. But it says....ALL. 

[The Light]

5 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Because you are cherry picking one line that makes a case for you.

But keep reading.....verse 11 ....."In the 600th year, 2nd month, 17th  day.....on the same day the fountains of the deep burst open"  On what same day? The 17th day!

Keep reading.....verse 12....the rain fell for 40 days/nights

Keep reading.... verse 13....."On the very same day Noah and company entered the ark"......What  same day? ......Its the same day from verse 11, the same day that the fountains burst. 

 

No, it is not the same day that the flood happened. On the selfsame day Noah and his family and the animals entered the ark.

Do you think that Noah waited 7 more days before he entered the ark? He was instructed enter the ark in verse one, before the 7 days. The verse you are quoting means that Noah, and family and the animals entered the ark in one day, the selfsame day. Not the day of the flood. They all entered on the same day.

Gen 7

¹² And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Verse twelve concludes, rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Then it says on the selfsame day they all enter. What day? The forty days and forty nights? That's the verse that precedes. It a concluding verse of the previous paragraph.

This is not that hard to understand. Plain common should be all that is required.

[JoeCanada]

14 minutes ago, The Light said:

No, it is not the same day that the flood happened. On the selfsame day Noah and his family and the animals entered the ark.

Do you think that Noah waited 7 more days before he entered the ark? He was instructed enter the ark in verse one, before the 7 days. The verse you are quoting means that Noah, and family and the animals entered the ark in one day, the selfsame day. Not the day of the flood. They all entered on the same day.

Gen 7

¹² And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Verse twelve concludes, rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Then it says on the selfsame day they all enter. What day? The forty days and forty nights? That's the verse that precedes. It a concluding verse of the previous paragraph.

This is not that hard to understand. Plain common should be all that is required.

So you are equating the "17th day of the month" from verse 11, and "the same day" also from verse 11, and "on the very same day" from verse 13......to the "forty days and forty nights"????

The "day" refers back to the "(6ooth year of Noahs life, in the second month) , on the 17th day of the month". Why do you think the Holy Spirit included the specific year, month and DAY? 

Did you miss a few years of school? 

[Revelation Man]

On 2/19/2020 at 4:13 AM, Diaste said:

Of course the remnant is the church. ALL the church. It's not a remnant of the church, it's a remnant of spiritual Israel. It's all the people born of the faith delivered to the Apostles and Paul who preached he good news to the world. Time to dump the fallacy of dispensationalism and move on from replacement theology. 

Sure....its a REMNANT CHURCH....but the Church nowhere else is ever called a Remnant, come on man, you finally figured out  I was right and it couldn't be the Jews so you had to come up with a parlor trick to try and justify that its now the Remnant Church but its really the FULL CHURCH, well Billy Bob is never going to believe this when I try to explain to him in Church Sunday that a Remnant means ALL  OF SOMETHING. Come on brother, I tee teed my pants laughing on this one. {I did have prostrate surgery, and its hard to hold with no prostrate}

Brother, stop fighting these facts, we see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened. We see the Church COME BACK with Jesus in Rev. 19, while who is still on earth ? The Beast, his minions and all of their evil followers !! 

I have the facts on my side, in every instance I can point to the FACTOIDS that show a pre trib Rapture is a must. You guys have verses  that you are misdiagnosing like Matt. 24:29-31, the Church COMES BACK with Jesus just like Rev. 19 says, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days. The Saints ARE indeed killed by the Beast, just not the Church Saints who have been Raptured, but rather the Remnant Church Saints. 

Everything FITS the Pre Trib.......When we are ZOOMING UP TOGETHER I am going to tell Jesus you want to go back down, then wink at him. If you tell Jesus there is no Pre trib on the way.............I'm going to bust a gut. 

Guys, we are all going to the same place, and I love you brothers, but here is a problem with what you teach. If young people hear this, they are going to say, well.......we gotta go through the Tribulation period anyway, so I GOT TIME.....we might as well live it up a few more years and sow our oats like most of the older people we know did as youths. BUT......When they are not Raptured, and if they can't resist the Beasts lies, they will be in danger of hell fire. That is why I PUSH BACK so much, you guys already have Salvation, I am not worried about your souls. But it breaks my heart to see people going the wrong way, they need to get right with God now, because most of these young cats have not had it hard like our parents/grandparents did in the depression, they will not be able to overcome, so they need to be ready now to go with Jesus when he calls us.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, The Light said:

It is important because the ark door is closed 7 days before the flood. There will be many that will say Lord, Lord open up. But the doors will be closed and many will be in the tribulation.

I don't see the context suggest this; you're free to believe what you like

There is plenty of evidence for a pre trib rapture. You just overlook it all. Why do you group 1 thes 4 with 1 Cor 15. In 1 Thes 4 we see that the LORD HIMSELF will descend. In 1 Cor 15 we see that He will send his angels. Not the same event. Additionally, we know that blindness in part happens to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. How does the fullness of the Gentiles come in?>

I would have to look deeper in 'the fullness of the Gentiles' to give you an intelligent response. I have never really looked at it as the return of the King is paramount in my eyes. 

They are the same event.

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

1 Thess 4 is the description of the 2nd coming akin to Matt 24; 1 Cor 15 is the description of the transmutation of mankind from mortality to immortality. No mention of angels here. First Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 are two witnesses to the same event, different vantage points. One an general experience, the other a personal individual experience which each member will take part. Second Thess 2 is yet another set of details into the same event. If not then we will have at least 3 comings of the Lord. Such a thing is not even implied in the whole of scripture.

The gathering that you see in Matthew 24 is not when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom on earth. The gathering occurs just before the wrath of God begins. At the end of wrath the kingdom will be set up.

I agree as the scriptures say just that.

My point is, just because we can prove that the standard pre trib model is wrong, that does not prove that the is not a pre trib rapture.

The feasts of Israel is all the evidence that you need. They paint the picture of what is to come.

You're right. However it does not follow that any hypothesis is correct by virtue of another being wrong. We still need evidence and reasonable logical progression assaying the fact contained in the source material. I'll ride that train with you if you can provide answers to the pertinent investigative questions: Who, why, where, what and when. The 'when' of it is the struggle for pretrib. I know little of the Jewish holidays. What I do know doesn't seem to lend insight to the last week. What's coming is unprecedented and the Revelation is the road map.

No, wrath does not occur during the 70th week. The 70th week ends with the gathering which we see in Matt 24 and Rev 6.  The 70 week will be over when the pre wrath rapture occurs, which is the gathering. God's people are not appointed to wrath.

Okay. I see it a bit different. All the events described up to New Jerusalem descending occur within the time frame of 7 years. GT does not go to the end of the week, "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." I can only surmise there is a definite end to the events and GT is stopped short of that, which from what I can tell is the end of the week.

 

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Sure....its a REMNANT CHURCH....but the Church nowhere else is ever called a Remnant, come on man, you finally figured out  I was right and it couldn't be the Jews so you had to come up with a parlor trick to try and justify that its now the Remnant Church but its really the FULL CHURCH, well Billy Bob is never going to believe this when O try to explain to him in Church Sunday that a Remnant means ALL  OF SOMETHING. Come on brother, I tee teed my pants laughing on this one. {I did have prostrate surgery, and its hard to hold with no prostrate}

As is said; the remnant is of the woman and her seed after the portion so ordained flees. It's a remnant of the woman, which is the 'church'. 

Brother, stop fighting these facts, we see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened. We see the Church COME BACK with Jesus in Rev. 19, while who is still on earth ? The Beast, his minions and all of their evil followers !! 

Well, no. But you are free to believe what you wish.

I have the facts on my side, in every instance I can point to the FACTOIDS that show a pre trib Rapture is a must. You guys have verses  that you are misdiagnosing like Matt. 24:29-31, the Church COMES BACK with Jesus just like Rev. 19 says, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days. The Saints ARE indeed killed by the Beast, just not the Church Saints who have been Raptured, but rather the Remnant Church Saints. 

Rev 19:14 ,"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses." This is your proof of the church in heaven returning to earth with the Warrior King. It's armies, to wit: "strateuma: an expedition, an army, a company of soldiers" Now post any scripture where the saints are called 'strateuma'. Any at all where the elect, the church, are labeled as such. If you cannot you don't have fact on your side. The Rev 19 group "dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses." are angels, not the newly translated saints.

Everything FITS the Pre Trib.......When we are ZOOMING UP TOGETHER I am going to tell Jesus you want to go back down, then wink at him. If you tell Jesus there is no Pre trib on the way.............I'm going to bust a gut. 

Your ridiculous rhetoric is in no way convincing. 

Guys, we are all going to the same place, and I love you brothers, but here is a problem with what you teach. If young people hear this, they are going to say, will.......we gotta go through the Tribulation period anyway, so I GOT TIME.....we might as well live it up a few more years and sow our oats like most of the older people we know did as youths.

This is literally the stupidest argument I have ever heard in the context of this discussion. You really believe a person's take on the gathering is the fuel to sin? As if the fact of any scriptural doctrine is the barrier to sin? 

BUT......When they are not Raptured, and if they can't resist the Beasts lies, they will be in danger of hell fire.

Again this lacks insight. How is a doctrine going to help resist the enemy? No doctrine can. Only the power of the Holy Spirit within us provides the armor for battle and the strength of the Lord is our victory. I can hear it now;: "Oh Lord, let the pretrib doctrine shelter us from the storm." If they are not raptured, and no one will be, they already believed the lie. 

 

That is why i PUSH BACK so much, you guys already have Salvation, I am not worried about your souls. But it breaks my heart to see people going the wrong way, they need to get right now,because most of these young cars have not had it hard like our parents/grandparents did in the depression, they will not be able to overcome, so they need to be ready now to go with Jesus when he calls us.

And what if there is no pretrib rapture? Generations will be unprepared. This is the insidious nature of lying doctrine, it leaves one exposed, weak and ill prepared. What do they have to overcome? If taken pretrib there is no overcoming. No need. Why prepare? No need. Pretrib promotes a weak spirituality, bereaving the church of it's strength in the Lord.