Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[OldCoot]

58 minutes ago, Diaste said:

If one allows the Spirit to teach them then one would see the false equivalency, the false premise would crumble, and one would understand that any hiding or removal is from the wrath of God and not the evil of mankind and it's leader, Satan.

I can understand how you would call it a false premise.  Ever since Origen introduced allegorical interpretation regarding the scripture, the dispute has gone on,   But it has yet to crumble.  There is considerable evidence from the early period of the church right on thru the reformation on up to today of many who see a pre calamities removal of the righteous.    It is not a recent invention.  

It all centers around hermeneutics and how one takes the scripture as either allegorical and figurative or that the scripture is implicit in what it is saying... the plain sense of the passage makes sense and one should not seek any other sense. 

If scripture is not to be taken at face value and the plain sense, then the problem of who determines what is really to be taken literally vs what is to be taken figuratively comes into play.  And that tends to be a moving goal post.

Could be some influence from my science classes in college, but I prefer the objective standard of hermeneutics that in a nutshell says... when the plain sense of the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest one end up with nonsense.

And Paul reminds us to "test the spirits".   So this blanket nonsense of defaulting to "if one allows the Spirit to teach" as a some sort of methodology to shut down opposition, it doesn't work.   The Spirit does illuminate the Word, but the Spirit also put in place in scripture several principles on how to determine a matter's validity so that one can test if they are actually being led by the Holy Spirit or a evil spirit.  The ultimate safety checks are in place if one wants to avail themselves of them.   The Bereans in Acts 17 did.

Edited February 9, 2020 by OldCoot

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

So we are supposed to take the word of revelation man as truth and take the words of Gospels with a grain of salt ? Yeah right!!!! Best be careful with speech like that....

The scriptures speak for themselves, there is a Rapture of the Church pre 70th week. The Gospels can not be a testimony by Jesus...its a testimony of four men whom the holy spirit moved on, but its not prophecy like Daniel, Isaiah etc. etc. Its a WITNESS to what they saw. 

Now, did Jesus die four different times or did the Gospels just explain it from four different men's perspectives ? Because all four describe the crucifixion in different ways. Why four Gospels ? There aren't four Daniel type books etc. etc. Because its mankind's witness of Jesus the Son of God. 

Honestly, I could care less what you take from me or not. We have many people on here who don't even understand when the Rapture happens, so should I be surprised when people can't understand this ? No, not really. 

The facts are the facts, Jesus {LIKE I STATED} did not give the Rapture understanding to any of the Disciples but Paul, so Matthew 24:36-51 is about the Rapture AND it may or may not be out of place because there were no CHAPTERS and VERSES, but if men who placed the chapters and verses later on, think its in the proper place, its not. It might have been intended to go with chapter 25 for all we know, or it might have just been a bunch of short stories pieced together, or as with the book of Revelation it might have been jumbled up on purpose, but its NOT IN ORDER.

I have been a preacher over 30 years sir, I don't need advice on how to interact with God. Just because you can't grasp a point, that's on you, not me. I could offer the same perspective and warning to everyone who lead people down wrong paths with errors via the Rapture etc. etc. but I leave that between God on them, I don't go around chastising people whom I think Satan is deceiving, he seeks to deceive us all, and but for the mercy of God we would all be deceived, so I think it goes against the nature of God to go around blaming men for being in error on things, we see darkly, now, BUT....we will all see clearly one day. Because you can't grasp what I am saying, well, that not something I can't do anything about. Maybe I am just on a different level than your thinking on this subject brother. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

34 minutes ago, Alive said:

Is there an agreement that the time of Jacob's trouble starts at the mid-point of the 7 years?

Who knows......I understand that but a lot of people actually think the two-witnesses show up during the first 1260 days of the 70th week, etc. etc. 

Everything is centered around the 1260 of Daniel ch. 12. Even the Two-witnesses and the Beast 1260 day offices are meant to be juxtaposed against each other to give us their exact timelines.

Since the Beast comes to power at the 1260 {Middle of the Week} and dies at the 7th Vial, then that means the Two-witnesses have to show up BEFORE he does because they die BEFORE he dies at the 2nd Woe !! Now we know Malachi 4:5-6 means what it says, Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord {1260 event}. So the Two-witnesses 1260 days have to start BEFORE the 1260, and since the Jews know to Flee Judea at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260, we have to assume they have REPENTED before the 1290, therefore the 1335 is where the Two-witnesses SHOW UP as a Blessing, 1335 days BEFORE the Second Coming ends these wonders. 

[Alive]

Brothers---the Lord has taught me many things over the last 45 years or so. Dreams, visions unquestionable specific direction to go here or there and such and such will happen. Experiences that simply have no other explanation other than God speaking. He has illuminated scripture in many areas, but never once has He spoken to me, other than that dream, on the end times.

I draw two conclusions from this. Either He has left it to other individuals or He just doesn't say.

I don't know, but I suspect that we can't know many specifics until it is upon us. I am convinced that His people will know as the events unfold.

[kenny2212]

I believe that what would resolve all these disagreements is if we could see each other in person and talk these topics over. Then we could table our evidences. Typing over the internet just won't do it...

God bless us all

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

A major conceptual failure by every pretrib advocate.

"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed, meaning One, who is Christ."

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3

The inverse truth is if you are not Abraham's seed, then you are not in Christ nor heirs of the promise of God. 

The other issue is confusing the nation of Israel with Israel. Abraham's seed are those in Christ no matter the race, this is true Israel.

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

All who come to God must come BY FAITH ALONE, whether they be Jew or Gentile/Greek. This is what is meant by the above, but it doesn't mean that there are no Jew and Gentile peoples. It just means that all who come to God must do so by Faith. Thus we are all the same both Jew and Gentile, in that we are heirs of God through Faith. To understand this is really SIMPLE, unless one takes it to the extreme. I can prove it doesn't mean what you assume.

Paul is only trying to point out to the Jews and Gentiles that we all come to Christ by FAITH ALONE, not by the Law !! The Galatians were trying to keep the Jewish Laws, they had been led down a wrong path by some "Christian Jews" who in error taught them they must keep the Law.

Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

This chapter has nothing to do with telling is that the Jews and the Gentiles are now ONE PEOPLES in Christ, we are still Gentiles and they are still Jews, this is Paul telling the Gentile Church they do not have to KEEP THE LAW to be of God, for we are all ONE via out Faith, not via our genealogy. 

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

QUESTION: Are there still Female and Males ? Of course there are, and there are also Jews and Gentiles, the point Paul was making of course gets misconstrued, like much of the scriptures do sadly. 

Paul is not saying there are no Jews or Gentiles, hes saying that there is NO LAW to keep, we are saved by God THROUGH FAITH ALONE, God sees neither Jew nor Gentile, but He sees out FAITH in his son Jesus Christ. Likewise whether we be MEN or WOMEN God sees only our Faith in Jesus, and just like there are still men and women on this planet, there are still Jews and Gentiles. People who go down this road miss the whole point Paul is making.

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Since that is true and Jacob is Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble is the time of trouble for Israel, true Israel and the nation. 

This notion, "From Matthew 24:15 onward is focused on those living in the land of Israel." is a flight of fancy. Jesus is telling believers in Him to beware of false Christs.

"At that time (the time of the A of D and GT), if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance. So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."

He's not talking to the nation of Israel here as the religious Jews and the nation of Israel does not recognize Jesus as the Lord, God, the Messiah, Almighty God, etc. They would be inclined to believe any report of Jesus as the Christ and hence would not seek Him in the desert or a hidden room; only those in Christ and believing in Him would. This warning is for believers AFTER great tribulation begins.

So they then jump to the conclusion there is NO Israel in the end times, that we are AL ONE, and that is just not the case. Just as sure as I am a Christian with Irish heritage, there are Jews who come to Christ by Faith during the 70th week also who are therefore in Christ Jesus. 

The Rapture of the Church pre 70th week takes both Jews and Gentiles in Christ, men like Paul, Peter, John {who we see there in Rev. 4:1 and 7:9-17} are Raptured together just like you and I am, BEFORE the 70th week begins {Like it or not...SMILE}. Likewise, all men who come to Christ AFTER the Rapture must also do so by Faith Alone, be they Gentile or Jew. So the Martyrs who are killed are mostly Gentiles or the Remnant Church who missed the Rapture, get saved, then must lay down their lives. The Jews who are MOSTLY BLINDED {they see IN PART according to Rom. ch. 11} until the Rapture, are then called to Repent by the Two-witnesses, they thus repent and Flee Judea unto Petra where God protects them for 1260 days. So they come to Christ by FAITH ALONE, Jesus doesn't just show up and save them, why should he ? the 1/3 REPENT just like Zechariah 13:8-9 says, the 2/3 will perish. 

So ALL Jews and Gentiles must come to Christ via FAITH ALONE, be it Abraham............Be it Christians during the Church Age..........Or be it Jews and Gentiles during the 70th week tribulation period. Thus ALL are the same, be they Jew or Greek. It has nothing do do with all being one body, there are Gentiles and Jews just like there are still Females and Males. 

 

[A Christian 1985]

truthseekersasciencespiritual.blogspot.com/

B. The Rapture

        They cried with a loud voice, "0 Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their follow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:10‑11 RSV)

      The day will come when God, who is patient and long‑suffering for our sakes, will respond to these prayers of His martyred saints and wrap things up. What will be involved in such a wrap‑up?

        I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that till the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion in an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13‑14)

        until the ancient of days came, and judgement was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.... But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever. (Dan. 7:22,18)

      There are two distinct aspects to the kingdom, depicted here: The first aspect is when "one like unto a son of man" (Christ) receives the kingdom from the "ancient of days" (God). The second aspect is when Christ bequeaths and jointly shares His kingdom with His chosen ones, the saints of the Most High. What is the significance of these two different aspects?

        And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, the kingdom of God cometh not with observation: (Luke 17:20).

      On the one hand, the Lord says that the kingdom of God comes without observation, yet in several other places he relates specific outward signs of the coming of the kingdom. Why is this so?

        Neither shall they say, Lo, here! Or, there! For lo, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

And madest them (to be) unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth. (Rev. 6:10)

        And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, Saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, (Matt. 22:1‑2)

        But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. (Matt. 24:36)

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God. . . (2 Pet. 3:12)

        to whom God was pleased to make known this mystery ... which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Col. 1:27)

... may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ: (Eph. 4:15)

        Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. (James 5:7 NASB)

you are God's field ... (1 Cor. 3:9 NASB)

The hidden aspect of the kingdom that comes without observation is this: God the Father is preparing a bride for His Son composed out of people he has chosen from before the foundation of the world. These people are constituted a kingdom unto Christ by letting Christ rule in them. This denying of the self to let Christ rule in them is dependent on the exercise by them of their free will; thus the day of God is not a set date- its coming can be hastened by greater numbers of believers allowing Christ to mature in them and by their letting Him mature in them faster.  (See Appendix.  XII.)

      Not all who are called will be chosen; not all believers will pay the price in this life to let Christ rule in them and thus constitute them a kingdom to Him. This hidden kingdom, which will be the bride to Christ, is a present from one person of the Triune God (the Father) to another person of the Triune God (Christ the Son). What good is a present if the exact time of this giving is not a surprise? This is why not even Christ knows the day and hour when this kingdom will be given to Him. Only the Father knows. The day and hour depends on a sufficient maturity of Christ in an adequate number of believers, sufficient enough to adequately express Christ as His bride and reign with Him during the time of the second aspect of the kingdom. What is the second, open aspect of the kingdom?

        Look at yourselves, that ye lose not the things which we have wrought, but that ye receive a full reward. (2 John 8)

For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matt. 22:14)

... called saints ... (Rom 1:7)

        And now I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you the inheritance among all them that are sanctified. (Acts 20:32)

        And if children, then heirs; heir of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. (Rom 8:17)

      The co‑reigning with Christ during the millennial kingdom, which is a 1,000‑year wedding feast, is a reward to those believers who go on to be overcomers- ­those who allow Christ to overcome their self‑life and thus transform their souls into His image. All believers will be the new Jerusalem (the wife of Christ) in eternity, but only the overcomers will be the bride of Christ during the millennium.

        when he shall come to be glorified in his saints ... (2 Thess. 1:10).

        And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim. 3:16 Intl. Greek)

        For yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. When they are saying, Peace and safety, then suddenly destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child: and they shall in no wise escape. (1 Thess. 5:2‑3)

      To those overcoming believers who are daily living the kingdom life in their spiritual walk, the rapture will just be a change of location and a fuller enjoyment of what they are experiencing. To both the world and the believers who are not walking in spirit and ready, the rapture will come unexpectedly‑ as a thief in the night.

And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her hand a crown of twelve stars, and she was with child; and she crieth out, travailing in birth, and in pain to be delivered. (Rev. 12:1‑2)

      This sign is a type of all the believers, both Old Testament and New Testament believers, who are always spoken of corporately with respect to God in female types. The woman herself is the universal church: all born‑again believers of all New Testament time. This aspect of the rapture is a hidden one, as the coming of the Lord as a thief in the night is compared also to a woman in travail in (1 Thess. 5:2‑3) above‑ this is the woman in travail spoken of by the apostle in that verse. Also, the beginning of travail spoken of in (Mark 13:7‑8) refers to the start of the church age, not to the end times. What is this child that she is travailing in birth to deliver?

and he made us (to be) a kingdom, (to be) priests unto God and his Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:6)

        and he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father: (Rev. 2:26‑27)

 

 

        And she was delivered of a son, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. (Rev. 12:5)

      The man‑child brought forth by this woman will be the resurrection of the overcoming believers throughout history, who are no longer physically alive. These are the stronger ones of God's people who led victorious spiritual lives while alive on the earth. Because they are the stronger part of God's people (the woman), they are referred to as a man‑child: they are a part of the woman yet they are also distinct from the rest of her. This woman, the universal church, has been pregnant since the church age began and has been travailing to give birth since then. The birth-rapture of the man‑child will occur shortly before the tribulation begins.

      From all this we may surely infer that, although Satan is a rebel, he has not yet been deprived either of his title or his power. He is till the great High One on high, who divides the world into different provinces according to its nationalities, appointing a powerful angel, assisted by countless subordinates, as viceroy over each kingdom to direct its energies and bend them to his will. ²⁹⁵

And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom, become our God's and the authority is become his Christ's: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (soul) lives even unto death. (Rev. 12:10)­

      When the man‑child is caught up to God, there is no longer any use, excuse or room for Satan and his fallen angels in heaven; the faithful angels under Michael are ordered by the overcomers to cast them out of heaven. This will be the fulfillment of the coming of the kingdom in its hidden aspect.

        And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel. (Rev. 7:4)

        And she was delivered of a son, a man‑child, who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.... And they overcame him (Satan) ... (Rev. 12:6, 11)

        To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God. (Rev., 2:7)

such a one caught up even to the third heaven ... (2 Cor. 12:21)

        And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.... These were purchased from among men, to be the first‑fruits unto God and unto the Lamb. (Rev. 14:1,4)

        and to bring the first fruits of our ground, and the first-fruits of all fruit of all manner of trees, year by year, unto the house of Jehovah: (Neh. 10:35).

        But watch ye at every season, making supplication that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

        Because thou (Philadelpha, the church off brotherly love) hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev. 3:10 KJV)

      The 144,000 sealed of the children of Israel are faithful Jews who will pass through the Tribulation on the earth; they are sealed for protection from the supernatural afflictions of that time. These will repent shortly before the Lord's physical return (covered later in Subsection G.) and are probably a literal number.

      The 144,000 on the heavenly Mount Zion, however, is a symbolic number signifying the maturity and completion of these believers and is probably not a literal number‑ since such maturity is not predestined and depends on the exercise of free will. Enoch, who was translated alive to heaven by God because he was well pleasing to God, was an Old Testament type of the rapture of these first‑fruits. This symbolical number of redeemed are the living overcomers raptured as first‑fruits to God, and (like the man‑child) are raptured not to the clouds, as will be the majority of living believers at the general harvest in Revelation 14:14‑16, but to heaven. This occurs shortly after or simultaneously with the rapture of the man‑child and also precedes the Tribulation.

        Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drunk, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all: after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed. (Luke 17:28‑30)

        And as were the days of Noah so shall be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man (Matt. 24:37‑39)

…but He that taketh refuge in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain. (Isa. 57:13)

        And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:16‑17)

      As we shall see, the coming of the Lord (and the rapture) starts at the beginning of the three‑and‑a‑half‑year Tribulation and ends with the physical return of Christ at the end of the Tribulation. The beginning of the coming of Christ (and the rapture) will occur without much specific prior warning and will catch the world by surprise. These events will alarm the world, and everyone will begin to realize what is happening.

Seek the Lord while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. (Isa. 55:6 NASB)

      We are now in the age of grace, with repentance and forgiveness of sins available to all men. The age of grace ends with the coming of the kingdom age and the coming of Christ. But the kingdom comes (in one aspect) three and a half years before Christ returns physically; and Christ begins to return three and a half years before His physical return to the Earth. According to all Scriptural implications (as we shall see) and the ramifications of free will, the age of grace may end at or shortly after the beginning of the Tribulation: repentance and forgiveness of sins, with regeneration, may not be available during the Tribulation (and certainly not afterwards).

        And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two man stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven. (Acts 1:9‑11)

        And the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:26‑27)

        And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown. And in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Rev. 14:14‑16)

        Then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:17)

      Christ will return in the same way that He left: Sometime after the rapture of the man child and first‑fruits, He will leave His throne and come to the atmosphere of the Earth, hidden in the clouds. The living believers who are left will then be caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. The Judgement‑Seat of Christ will be set up in the clouds during this time (this is what the “one like unto a son of man”, Christ, will be sitting on), and it is then that the Lord will decide whether each believer will receive the reward of the millennial kingdom or suffer punishment (a further disciplining needed to bring them to maturity) during that time.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matt. 13:30)

      As we have seen, the return of Christ will occur over a three and a half year period and will be of two aspects: firstly, in a hidden way as a thief in the night to steal away His most precious ones (the man‑child and the first‑fruits) and, secondly, at His actual visible return from the clouds. Thus are these and other apparently contradictory verses reconciled, being illustrations of the two differing aspects of the same process.

        And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:31)

        And the seven angels that had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (Rev. 8:6)

        For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump (et) of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15‑17)

      The rapture of the large majority of the living believers left on the earth after the rapture of the first‑fruits will occur towards the end of the Tribulation, almost certainly in the last three months.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (et): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 16:5 1‑52)

        And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed goat voices in heaven, and they said, the kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)

        And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Dan. 7:27)

      At the sounding of the last (the seventh) trumpet, all the remaining believers still on the earth will be raptured to the clouds, preceded by the dead in Christ who were not overcomers during their lifetimes and thus were not part of the man‑child. In this way all believers, living and dead, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive a reward (reign with Christ during the millennial kingdom) or suffer punishment (a further disciplining during the millennium), before the actual, physical return of Christ to the Earth after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

 

 

THE LATE‑OVERCOMERS

      Unlike the rapture of the majority of the believers, the rapture of the first fruits (the living overcomers) will occur before the Tribulation. If you miss out on this and still want to be an overcomer, there is a "short‑cut" of sorts possible.

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: ... And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet a little time, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course. (Rev. 6:9, 11)

        And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (Rev 13:15)

        And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could

learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth. (Rev. 14:1‑3)

        And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb…(Rev. 15:2-3)

        And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them; and I saw that souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4)

      When the Antichrist sets up his image in the temple at Jerusalem, you can go there, refuse to worship him, and be beheaded on the spot. If you do that, you also will reign with Christ during the millennial kingdom.

        Here is the steadfastness of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.  (Rev. 14:12)

      Who are those who keep the commandments of God? The Jews. Who are those who have the faith of Jesus? The Christians. The Antichrist will persecute both the Christians and the Jews when he rises to power. Also among the Late‑Overcomers will be the Jews who refuse to worship the image of the beast. Imagine his surprise when, after death, such a Jew (who is still awaiting a promised Messiah) is set on a throne by Christ to co‑reign with Him for a thousand years!

      But there is a catch to all this: as in everything else, self-effort is not of real value in regards to spiritual matters. The description of the Antichrist's persecution of God's people implied by the original language is that of making war on them by wearing them out, and not necessarily immediately putting them to death. If you go to Jerusalem with the intention of martyrdom but without the express leading of the Lord in your spirit to do so, most likely instead of being allowed to be a martyr, you will be thrown into prison and tortured. Everything is a matter of the Lord's will, not our self‑effort.

 

SUMMARY OF THE RAPTURE:

      Shortly before the Tribulation begins, the overcomers will be raptured to the throne of God in heaven. The dead overcomers (the man‑child) will be resurrected and raptured first, followed shortly by the living overcomers (the first‑fruits). The large majority of living believers will pass through most of the Tribulation and be raptured as the general harvest not to heaven but to the clouds. Toward the very end of the Tribulation and shortly before the literal physical return of the Lord to the Earth, the dead non‑overcomers, immediately followed by the living non‑overcomers still left on the earth, will be raptured to the clouds also. All of the believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to receive a reward or suffer discipline. Those who need further disciplining to mature will be cast into outer darkness for the duration of the millennial kingdom. Those who receive a reward will return with the Lord to fight at Armageddon and reign with Him during the millennial kingdom, which will be a thousand‑year wedding feast. You cannot lose your salvation/regeneration. ALL born-again (believers) WILL be the New Jerusalem for eternity future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ENOCH2010]

Do you all see what happens when the truth is about to be reveled, the above happens, a post is bombed on every thread in this forum to hide the truth in a bunch of non sense. 

[Last Daze]

47 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Do you all see what happens when the truth is about to be reveled, the above happens, a post is bombed on every thread in this forum to hide the truth in a bunch of non sense. 

Yeah, it's as if some believe that wishful thinking changes things.  Truth is immutable.  Reality is inescapable.  Best to embrace it and prepare for it.  Pretrib rapture is a lullaby.  Jesus says be on the alert.

[missmuffet]

11 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

I believe that what would resolve all these disagreements is if we could see each other in person and talk these topics over. Then we could table our evidences. Typing over the internet just won't do it...

God bless us all

No, it would not resolve all the disagreements. People are going to believe what they want to believe even though the Bible tells us differently. That is the way of the human being.