Pre-Wrath Rapture

[iamlamad]

On 4/9/2020 at 1:28 PM, The Light said:

the Word says and the Word says they are 144,000 virgins.

That could mean they have not gone after false Gods as in them being spiritual virgins. But, it also could mean Physical virgins. 

[iamlamad]

On 4/8/2020 at 7:26 PM, R. Hartono said:

Sorry the great multitude is taken Alive first n the souls of killed Tribulation saints  under the altar Will appear  there one by one as beheading took place in great Tribulation on earth

There is no safe place like the Hebrew in Egypt its not biblical n manmade, God Will serve wormwood coffee to the whole world including those foolish virgins left behind.

The only problem is, when John is at the 5th seal, He is in the church age. He does not start the 70th week until the 7th seal, and does not get to the beheading time until late in chapter 14. 

I agree: when 1/3 of a sea gets turned to blood, it is going to affect ALL on the sea.  When He pollutes all the fresh water with wormwood (think Chernobyl) it will affect all who are forced to drink that water.  I like the way you said it: wormwood coffee!

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The only problem is, when John is at the 5th seal, He is in the church age. He does not start the 70th week until the 7th seal, and does not get to the beheading time until late in chapter 14. 

I agree: when 1/3 of a sea gets turned to blood, it is going to affect ALL on the sea.  When He pollutes all the fresh water with wormwood (think Chernobyl) it will affect all who are forced to drink that water.  I like the way you said it: wormwood coffee

Wars, murders, famines n plagues happened be4 the church age n came n passed away, the world is still relatively at peace now, but when the GT begins it will happen so horrible unceasingly that kill billions globally by the Seals opening.

The 2nd seal will remove peace globally n people kill each other out of control of the Law.

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by R. Hartono

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Wars, murders, famines n plagues happened be4 the church age n came n passed away, the world is still relatively at peace now, but when the GT begins it will happen so horrible unceasingly that kill billions globally by the Seals opening.

The 2nd seal will remove peace globally n people kill each other out of control of the Law.

 

Sorry, but that is pulling those seals out of their context. Why would anyone do that? We must understand scripture ONLY in its context. 

Chapter 4: John saw a vision. But a vision can be of the past, present, or future, or all three mixed together. We must determine which by the text. What was the first thing John saw: a throne room with the Main Character MISSING.  What is God trying to tell us? This is the revelation of JESUS, yet God showed John a throne room when He was strangely absent. 

Then later John saw the Holy Spirit in the throne room, as the 7 spirits of God. Again, strange: Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit down as soon as He ascended. Again, what is God trying to tell us?

Then in chapter 5 John watched a search for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - yet in that search - no man was found. That search ended in failure. Again, what is God trying to tell us?

When it ALL of time was there a time when the second person of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father? That would be during that very short period in time when He was on the earth. Imagine looking into the throne room in 5 AD? Would Jesus have been seen in the throne room? No! He was on earth. He had to lay aside his ability to be omnipresent when He became a man. So the throne room would have appeared exactly as John saw it in this vision: the Holy Spirit still there.  (The Holy Spirit went down when Jesus was baptized.)  (Jesus was on earth somewhere around 2 BC to 32 AD.)

Now consider the book with the seals: WHY was "no man found?" If we read ahead, Jesus was found. But WHY was He not found in that first search John watched, where "no man was found?" Again it goes to TIMING. Jesus was not worthy to take the book and open the seals while He was alive on earth as a man. He had to die for our sins first. Then He had to raise from the dead: PREVAIL over death. In short, He had to become the Redeemer of mankind. God is showing us that at that moment in time, it was BEFORE Jesus rose from the dead. But as always, TIME PASSES. Jesus rose from the dead and was then found worthy to take the book. From the gospels, when was the first mention of Jesus ascending? It is here: (He did mention He would ascend earlier)

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

This tells us that as soon as He sent Mary away, He ascended. John, in his vision, got to see this moment in time:

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne

What do we read? John was there, Jesus was not there: but suddenly, Jesus appeared. How did he appear? As a lamb slain. WHEN is the big question: WHEN did Jesus send Mary away and ascend back into heaven? That would have been around 32 AD.

Now lets ask this question: WHEN Did Jesus get this book with 7 seals into HIS hands? AGain, the answer has to be, around 32 AD.  You can study the next verses that end chapter 5, and then get to the first seal in chapter 6. Neither you nor anyone else can find 2000 years hidden there in the text, or between the lines. That was not the intent of the Author. His intent is that Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended and started RIGHT THEN - 32 AD - opening the seals. 

While most readers today read seal one and think future, GOD IS THINKING 32 AD. 

What then are we to make of seal 1, opened in 32 AD. A WHITE HORSE and rider. John used white 17 times in Revelation. I challenge you to look up the other 16 and see the meaning. In two, John comes right out and tells us it represents righteousness. In the others, although not said in words, it is strongly hinted as the same meaning. Yet, most people ignore this, ignore the context, and boldly state, "this is the Antichrist."  They are 2000 years off and imagine John (and the Holy Spirit) would use white 16 times for righteousness, and then once for evil! PREPOSTEROUS!  God would never do that. We can be sure this white horse is to represent some kind of warfare (a horse) and it must be some kind of righteous warfare. Actually the Greek word there for "conquer" is translated as "overcome" many other times. ONLY here is it translated as conquer. 

What then was the ONLY entity on earth that God would have seen as righteous in 32 AD? Only one thing: the infant CHURCH. God declared them as righteous the moment each was born again. Again, around 32 AD, Jesus sent them out with the gospel, to make disciples of all nations. But wait: WHO is the god of these nations? Who controls the "principalities and powers" over those nations? Of course, SATAN did and does. Would he just stand aside and allow the church to take the gospel into new places without a fight? NEVER! It cost martyrs to take the Gospel to new places. 

What about seal 2, seal 3 and seal 4? 

The second seal, with the red horse and rider, the third seal with the black horse and rider, and the 4th seal with the pale horse and rider are to represent the Dragon or Satan’s attempt to stop the advance of the church. They ride together but were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth.

Of course that one-fourth would be centered on Jerusalem, where the Gospel began.

That would probably include Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. Where have all the famines in our lifetime been? Most have been in Africa. That was the black horse and rider at work. Where did the black plague hit—twice—killing nearly one-third of the population each time? In Europe. That was the pale horse and rider at work: “Death.” Where did two world wars begin? Again in Europe. That was the red horse and rider at work. Without much doubt, the third world war will begin in this same quarter of the earth.

John wrote, “power was given unto them...” (6:8) I began to bug God about that: God, who is “them?” He answered, “it is right there in the verse: read it again.” (this happened several times: His answer was always the same!) It took me a while to find it. He wrote that “power was given unto them to kill with the sword”.....the red horse rider was given a great sword. “Power was given unto them to kill with hunger....and the black horse was to bring famine. “Power was given unto them to kill with death....and the pale horse rider was named “Death.” So I understood that these three ride together, while the white horse and rider rides alone. Of course these three riders failed to stop the church, for now the gospel can be found anywhere on the planet.

See what happens when one does not ignore the context?
Most readers "jump the gun" so to speak, in Revelation and are in the 70th week (or think they are) while the Holy Spirit and John are in the church age. 

The dividing point: church age to Day of the Lord, will be at the 6th seal, still future to us today.

 

[Spock]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:31 PM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Though out my studies of scripture I have come to the conclusion that we will be rapture'd at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) spoken of in revelations.  (1Co 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)   I dont associate the Tribulation as God's wrath.  God's wrath is what happens after the 7th Trumpet where he pours out the vials of his wrath on the those whom worshiped the beast.  Jesus said you will have tribulation in this world (meaning tribulation comes from this evil world and is not God's wrath) (Jhn 16:33 KJV - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.)  We are promised tribulation in this world, yet we are not appointed unto God's wrath.  These are two different things.  I do believe at the 7th Trumpet we will be raptured up to meet Yahshua in the clouds of heaven where we join him in the marriage supper of the Lamb, while the vials of wrath are being poured out on those whom chose to follow the beast.  Then afterward we will return with him to rule and reign on earth.

Greetings my Pre Wrath brothers,

While I can’t say I fully adhere to this theory, I do see a lot of good that has come from it and I understand the questioning of the Pre trib theory needed to be done.  I happen to think both theories (and the Post Trib theory) have faults, but then again, who am I? I’m not Solomon either. 
 

Okay, let me read through this entire thread to see what I can glean that I already don’t know. By the way, I’ve read much of the Pre Weath literature....Van Kampen, Rosenthal, and Kuschner, so,it’s not like I’m ignorant of the theory. 
 

spock

[Spock]

On 4/8/2020 at 7:02 AM, R. Hartono said:

 

The trumpet of Rapture is not the same with the 7 trumpets of God's wrath. Because to Paul the 7 trumpets of God's wrath was not revealed yet, until it was revealed to apostle John in Patmos island around 85 CE.

Imagine if rapture takes place after the 7 trumpets of God's wrath, where God's fierce judgment will exterminate the earth and billions of people, the saints will die of catastrophies be4 the 7th trumpets sound, remember God said :

1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath.....

So far imo this post is the best because it is a game changer. You make perfect sense in saying ....how could the last trump cited by Paul be the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation when Revelation was written some 40 years later?  How could Paul’s Corinthian audience have known this?  They couldn’t. COMMON SENSE FELLOWS....please don’t let your agenda and biases remove your common sense. 
 

Therefore, by the power vested in me I proclaim......from here on going forward No one shall ever associate Paul’s last Trump with the 7th trumpet of Revelation. So let it be written, so let it be done! 
 

Ambassador Spock
 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:31 PM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Though out my studies of scripture I have come to the conclusion that we will be rapture'd at the last trumpet (7th Trumpet) spoken of in revelations.  (1Co 15:52 KJV - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.)   I dont associate the Tribulation as God's wrath.  God's wrath is what happens after the 7th Trumpet where he pours out the vials of his wrath on the those whom worshiped the beast.  Jesus said you will have tribulation in this world (meaning tribulation comes from this evil world and is not God's wrath) (Jhn 16:33 KJV - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.)  We are promised tribulation in this world, yet we are not appointed unto God's wrath.  These are two different things.  I do believe at the 7th Trumpet we will be raptured up to meet Yahshua in the clouds of heaven where we join him in the marriage supper of the Lamb, while the vials of wrath are being poured out on those whom chose to follow the beast.  Then afterward we will return with him to rule and reign on earth.

Here is something to consider. 

Those who suffer God's wrath for worshiping the beast suffer that wrath in the presence of the Lamb. 

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-10.htm

 

This would suggest that no one will be taken away before wrath. In my opinion, I would say it would probably be much like it was in Egypt. While the Egyptians suffered, the children of Israel were not harmed. Even when the angel of death showed up, those who had the blood of the lamb on thier door posts were saved. They didn't need to be taken out of the world for God to save them. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

So far imo this post is the best because it is a game changer. You make perfect sense in saying ....how could the last trump cited by Paul be the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation when Revelation was written some 40 years later?  How could Paul’s Corinthian audience have known this?  They couldn’t. COMMON SENSE FELLOWS....please don’t let your agenda and biases remove your common sense. 
 

Therefore, by the power vested in me I proclaim......from here on going forward No one shall ever associate Paul’s last Trump with the 7th trumpet of Revelation. So let it be written, so let it be done! 
 

Ambassador Spock
 

 

I agree, there's just no way Paul could know the future without John's help. 

I mean really, how could Paul even know anything about the last trump he spoke of? 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[Jedi4Yahweh]

10 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Here is something to consider. 

Those who suffer God's wrath for worshiping the beast suffer that wrath in the presence of the Lamb. 

 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-10.htm

 

This would suggest that no one will be taken away before wrath. In my opinion, I would say it would probably be much like it was in Egypt. While the Egyptians suffered, the children of Israel were not harmed. Even when the angel of death showed up, those who had the blood of the lamb on thier door posts were saved. 

Yeah that could be the scenario.  Either way God's true people who are obedient to him will not suffer his wrath and will be protected.  I am sure the were many Israelite's that did not follow the directions of putting the blood on their doors who suffered.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

49 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I agree, there's just no way Paul could know the future without John's help. 

I mean really, how could Paul even know anything about the last trump he spoke of? 

Paul did not need to read the book of Revelation to understand this?  Paul knew what the sound of the Shofar represents and about what the Feast of Trumpets represents in the Last Days (call to war and also a call to gather his people).  Even today in synagogues Jews sound the Shofar to represents the gathering of God's people.  Plus, Jesus spoke about this final trumpet final gathering at his return.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Mat 24:29-31 KJV

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh