Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[R. Hartono]

The wise virgins shall be saved alive and shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

While on the earth the foolish virgins left behind shall be overcome by the beast :

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So This explains there are two groups of people in heaven at the time of Great Tribulation :

1. The Great Multitude of 1 Thes 4:16 in living BODIES.

2. The SOULS under the Altar of the dead martyrs overcome by antichrist in Rev 13:7, they were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. These souls came one by one until their number is accomplished.

Edited April 21, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

Paul obviously said those who are alive n remain shall be gathered to the cloud, as the wise virgins told by Jesus have the oil of Holy Spirit, this debunked the pretribbers idea that  church must die in Tribulation.

[NonProfitProphet]

On 4/20/2020 at 3:03 AM, R. Hartono said:

The wise virgins shall be saved alive and shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

While on the earth the foolish virgins left behind shall be overcome by the beast :

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So This explains there are two groups of people in heaven at the time of Great Tribulation :

1. The Great Multitude of 1 Thes 4:16 in living BODIES.

2. The SOULS under the Altar of the dead martyrs overcome by antichrist in Rev 13:7, they were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. These souls came one by one until their number is accomplished.

The Bible speaks very specifically about who is in the first resurrection... the tribulation martyrs; the second resurrection is for “the rest of the dead.”

Did John misunderstand when he penned Revelation chapter 20? Shouldn’t he have written that the martyrs were the second resurrection and the “rest of the dead,” the third?

If Thessalonians specifically states that the first resurrection is before the tribulation, that makes three resurrections. The pre-trib resurrection and the post-trib resurrection can’t both be the “first,” as there is a period of time and significant events that separate them. This is true of the post-trib and millennial resurrections, as well. 

There’s obviously three specific groups and times in mind when referring to the resurrections:

3. The post-mill “rest of the dead,”

2. The pre-mill/post-trib tribulation martyrs, and

1. the “we-don’t-think-God-will-watch-over-or-guard-us-during-the-tribulation” group.

 

[R. Hartono]

13 hours ago, NonProfitProphet said:

The Bible speaks very specifically about who is in the first resurrection... the tribulation martyrs; the second resurrection is for “the rest of the dead.”

 

You have misunderstood the word first resurrection, thats why i made this thread :

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/233771-the-word-first-resurrection-in-rev-20-which-mislead-many/

 

[NonProfitProphet]

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

You have misunderstood the word first resurrection, thats why i made this thread :

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/233771-the-word-first-resurrection-in-rev-20-which-mislead-many/

 

You’re novice analysis assumes believers will leave the earth before the tribulation; therefore, you have to create an explanation for it. You didn’t write anything that makes sense for the sake of the topic.

The truth is, nothing in scripture says this will happen before the tribulation. In order to accept your teaching, one has to already believe in a pre-trib rapture. 
 

BTW, it’s not I who misunderstood the word “first.”
 

 

[OneLight]

Please, don't wander into the personal attack camp  I am sure an honest conversation can take place without attacking one another in an attempt to demean whom you are replying to. 

[missmuffet]

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15: 50-54

⁵⁰ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Do whatever you want with these words but if you take them literally as God has intended it will tell you that the Church will go up to Christ before the 7 year tribulation occurs. Time will tell. 

[ENOCH2010]

33 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15: 50-54

⁵⁰ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Do whatever you want with these words but if you take them literally as God has intended it will tell you that the Church will go up to Christ before the 7 year tribulation occurs. Time will tell. 

Please show us where timing can be found in the above.

[missmuffet]

16 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Please show us where timing can be found in the above.

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

Edited April 26, 2020 by missmuffet

[ENOCH2010]

2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Question: "What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?"

Answer: The rapture and the second coming of Christ are often confused. Sometimes it is difficult to determine whether a scripture verse is referring to the rapture or the second coming. However, in studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

I'll repeat the statement you must have missed it. Please show us where timing can be found. Your above answer has nothing to do with what was asked.