The Holy Covenant of Daniel 11

[douggg]

On 5/20/2020 at 9:29 AM, Last Daze said:

I think we both agree that He is speaking of a future event in that verse.  There's nothing to "see" in the Daniel 12 mention of the AoD.  In that chapter, its mention is only used as a time frame reference point.  What is the future event that Jesus is referring to in this verse that we are supposed to see if it's not the AoD mentioned in Daniel 11?  Do you think the AoD in Daniel 11 happens twice?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

"setup" is something that can been seen.

 

The abomination of desolation will look something like this.... a standing statue image in the likeness of the beast person.   (I photoshopped a picture of the Jefferson memorial - nothing to do with Jefferson of course).

The people of the world are actually the ones who make the statue image.    It will be inert and lifeless at first.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by douggg

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

"setup" is something that can been seen.

That may be true but there's nothing in Daniel 12 to indicate that it's setup where it doesn't belong.  When we look at these parallel passages:

• Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.  Matthew 24:15-16
• But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.  Mark 13:14

they point to a passage in Daniel that describes the AoD standing in the holy place where it shouldn't be.  The Daniel 12 mention of the AoD doesn't fit the bill.  That's why I see the chapter 12 mention as a reference back to the chapter 11 mention.

• From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.  Daniel 12:11

refers back to:

• Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.  Daniel 11:31

You may see it differently which is fine.  Our perception is just that.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, douggg said:

The abomination of desolation will look something like this.... a standing statue image in the likeness of the beast person.   (I photoshopped a picture of the Jefferson memorial - nothing to do with Jefferson of course).

The people of the world are actually the ones who make the statue image.    It will be inert and lifeless at first.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Something to consider:

• The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.  Revelation 17:8a

The beast is an evil spirit being who comes up out of the abyss whose primary purpose is to cause the man of sin to exercise dominion.  I agree that the deceived people of the world make the image, and that it will be lifeless at first.  But I don't see it as being a statue or anything physical.  I see it more as a code of conduct that the people of the world collaborate on that affirms the man of sin's rule over them.  The man of sin gives it life by making it law and those who don't worship it (obey its mandates) are to be killed.  Worshiping the image is synonymous with worshiping the man of sin.

[Last Daze]

Thanks for your reply.  We see things quite similarly.

6 hours ago, Sister said:

In my opinion all has been fulfilled already except for the abomination that makes desolate.  The daily sacrifice is not the sacrificing of animals, but the sacrifices we make of the heart.  There is a separation happening now between the luke-warm and the loyal.

I think that this is the key to understanding the AoD.  As you say, there is a "soft segregation" going on now through the spreading of lies.  It will turn into a "hard segregation" with the mark and the image.

• Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.  Romans 12:1

Says it all.  We are the temple of God.

[Sister]

36 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I agree that the deceived people of the world make the image, and that it will be lifeless at first.  But I don't see it as being a statue or anything physical. 

 Revelation 13:12   And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

  Revelation 13:13   And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

  Revelation 13:14   And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

  Revelation 13:15   And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

Last Daze, I see it like this;

Two beasts of Revelation. 

The first beast is the kingdom with the 10 kings ruling together.

The second beast is the Son of Perdition himself (False Prophet).  One man.

The first beast lays out all the new laws.

The second beast convinces all the peoples of the earth to adhere to their laws..

The new law is that no man can buy or sell (be part of society in any shape or form) unless they receive the Mark of the Beast.

The people have to make an image to the beast to show they accept these new laws.

The people make microchips.  All nations will produce.  We need 7 billion of them, and more for those to be born.  So we need factories, many of them, and those to distribute.

We need all the people of the earth to give their personal data,  and those on the other end to input the information into a central computer system.  New ID's, new bank account's... everything.   All businesses, departments & individuals will connect. Everybody working in harmony thinking they are doing good.

There is your image of the beast that the people have made  -  The microchip - which is the mark of the beast.  It's tiny and made of a material.  It's in your hand or forehead. You worship it because you now worship the system,...  The system of the 1st Beast - their rules.   You will bow down to that system and obey or else.  You already signed on the dotted line and now you have your token (image) in your hand to prove who you serve and have given allegiance to.  If you do not obey, this image will speak to you and tell you that you cannot access your funds. It will tell you that their coming for you.  No chip, no contract.  No image to serve. 

They won't need a statue to remind them of who they serve, because God will give the two witnesses to remind, and the seven angels with the seven plagues. 

 

and here is why I believe that the very next verse is telling us what that image is;

 Revelation 13:16   And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

 Revelation 13:17   And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
 

But who knows I could be wrong, It's just what I picture.  Things will become more clearer as they happen.

 

[Walter and Deborah]

On 5/18/2020 at 9:16 AM, Last Daze said:

I was reading Daniel 11 and came across the phrase "holy covenant" which appeared a few times and is a point of focus.

• Then he will return to his land with much plunder; but his heart will be set against the holy covenant, and he will take action and then return to his own land.  At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not turn out the way it did before.  For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant.  Daniel 11:28-30

The only other reference that I could find concerning the holy covenant was in Luke.

• To show mercy toward our fathers, and to remember His holy covenant, the oath which He swore to Abraham our father.  Luke 1:72-73

My question is, what is the holy covenant, and how would someone forsake it?

Amen, Good post, reference, and a good question:

• To show mercy toward our fathers, and to remember His holy covenant, the oath which He swore to Abraham our father.  Luke 1:72-73

My question is, what is the holy covenant, and how would someone forsake it?

 

Daniel 11:28 Commentaries: "Then he will return to his ...

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/11-28.htm

And his heart shall be against the holy covenant - The words "holy covenant" are a technical expression to denote the Jewish institutions. The Hebrew people were called the "covenant people," as being a people with whom God had entered into covenant.

 

And his heart shall be against the holy covenant - The words “holy covenant” are a technical expression to denote the Jewish institutions. The Hebrew people were called the “covenant people,” as being a people with whom God had entered into covenant. All their privileges were regarded as the result of that covenant, and hence, the word came to be applied to all the institutions of the nation. When it is said that his heart Was against that covenant, the meaning is, that he was enraged against it; and determined to bring calamity upon the place and people connected with it. The reason of this was the following: When he was in Egypt, a report was spread abroad that he was dead. In consequence of this rumour, Jason took the opportunity of recovering the office of high priest from his brother Menelaus, and with a thousand men took Jerusalem, drove Menelaus into the castle, and killed many whom he took for his enemies. Antiochus, hearing of this, supposed that all the Jews had revolted, and determined to inflict summary chastisement on them on his way to his own land. See Jahn, “Hebrew Commonwealth,” p. 263.   

 

And how would someone forsake it ?

 

Walter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Walter and Deborah
More info.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Sister said:

But who knows I could be wrong, It's just what I picture.  Things will become more clearer as they happen.

Agreed.  It will become clearer with time.  I see the mark as an enforcement mechanism.  It will force people to make a decision about worshiping the image quickly and monitor ongoing compliance.

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Something to consider:

• The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.  Revelation 17:8a

The beast is an evil spirit being who comes up out of the abyss whose primary purpose is to cause the man of sin to exercise dominion.  I agree that the deceived people of the world make the image, and that it will be lifeless at first.  But I don't see it as being a statue or anything physical.  I see it more as a code of conduct that the people of the world collaborate on that affirms the man of sin's rule over them.  The man of sin gives it life by making it law and those who don't worship it (obey its mandates) are to be killed.  Worshiping the image is synonymous with worshiping the man of sin.

I don't buy  into Douggg theory about an indwelling of a Statue, if the Demonic powers INDWELL anything it would be a human being. I think the words Douggg is referring to  have more to do with AI and the State making this "IMAGE" seem to come alive worldwide via some kind of AI. 

There are many Beasts, we see there were Seven Heads to the Beast {Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the coming Anti-Christ MAN} so that is 7 Beasts which simple means an ANIMAL that Dominates so its transferred to Israel being Dominated by an Beast like Kingdom, and this Beast Like Kingdom not only rules over Israel, but all the Mediterranean Sea Region. All we get to see here is ONE AREA where a Demon controls that area. 

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So, there is a Demon that rules over New York City, one that rules over Germany, one over Brazil, one over Los Angeles etc.  Satan told Jesus such in Luke 4

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

So, Satan of course is THE BEAST {Dominates} over this whole World, there are 2 Billion Christians {probably half who are FAKES} and 6 billion who are of Satan in some form or fashion. Every area he BEASTS OVER, but we are shown in this case ONE SPECIFIC PLACE, the Mediterranean Sea Region, where this Beast you are speaking about ARISES out of the Bottomless Pit. So WHY was he there? When was he placed there? These are all important questions, because he seems to be a Demon Spirit {not Satan} who was placed there for a specific reason, by God Himself, of course. The CLUES are in the very chapters we read in the book of Revelation. All three Beasts are described in DIFFERENT MANNERS. The Red Dragon is not the Scarlet Beast and NEITHER is the Rev. 13 Beast. NOTICE, they all have Seven Heads and Ten Horns, so what DESIGNATES EACH ENTITY? The Crowns !!

Rev. 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The above is indeed Satan, he is said to have CROWNS over all 7 Heads meaning he is/was a KING over all 7 {Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and this coming Anti-Christ who is the 7th Head over THIS REGION} and we know this by looking at Luke 4, because not only is he a King/Beast over this Region, but ALL REGIONS on the whole earth, but this ONE REGION is being spoken about, the Mediterranean Sea Region with Israel in its midst.

Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

This BEAST MAN {Described in verse 5 as HAVING a Mouth} has TEN CROWNS designating him as a KING over the E.U. the launching point from where he then Conquers the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, beside the E.U. portions of Spain, Italy etc. etc. who freely give their Kingdoms unto him. So the 10 CROWNS Designate who he is also, the Man Beast/Anti-Christ king of Europe, who then Conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Region like Dan 11:40-43 says

Rev. 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Notice, NO CROWNS are designated to this BEAST because he is not the KING over this world, Satan is !! In the Spirit World this is Satan's domain. In the Bottomless Pit Apollyon was KING !! So he is an 8th King, just not of this world. MEN can be Kings of this world, but only Satan can be the King over this world in the Dark Spirit world. That is why this Scarlet Colored Beast has NO CROWNS. 

Apollyon was APPOINTED to be over the Mediterranean Sea Region by Satan, he was thus OVER Egypt {he tried to slay the Israelites in the Red Sea}, Assyria, Babylon, Persia {he is the one who RESISTED Micheal for 21 days in Daniel 10}, Greece, Rome and he will thus be FREED and will be over the Anti-Christ Beast, thus he is OF THE 7.............But is an 8th [King], but there is no 8th Kingdom on earth. 

I had this figured out 2 or 3 years ago. Its right there in the scriptures, it tells us he comes up from the Bottomless Pit, then it tells us he kills the Two-witness. Its not Satan, he has never been in the Bottomless Pit, and once men die they do not return. Its a DEMON named Apollyon. 

 

 

[douggg]

9 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The beast is an evil spirit being who comes up out of the abyss whose primary purpose is to cause the man of sin to exercise dominion. 

imo, the beast in the bottomless pit - is the original serpent that was in the garden of Eden, who's objective was to get Eve and Adam to sin.    That serpent is now a disembodied spirit.

What was in it for that beast to do such a thing?    I think he cut a deal with Satan, to become the ruler of the world.... by getting Adam and Eve to fall.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by douggg

[Diaste]

I have heard a lot about this over the years. One reference is to Antiochus IV, Dan 12 is the end of the age, both refer to the end of the age, it's not literal, etc.

Are we sure it matters? 

Jesus said,

"So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

I think here we are told to look for understanding of this event. What that full understanding might be I'm not sure, personally. I do know we are to look to Daniel the Prophet for the understanding. Since this event relates to the end of the age it seems we should be looking to Daniel to understand this event in the context of the end and put aside when one happened, or did not happen. 

What it is and why it's important and the results are more to the point in my opinion. Now maybe that's what this thread has already discussed but in the spirit of full disclosure I didn't read all the posts.

That this is a real world event with temporal consequences is beyond dispute for me. In both Matthew and Mark the event comes with the imperative to flee to the mountains. I'm not sure this would be required if the A of D is a spiritual evil invading the spirit of believers, solely; maybe not at all. Both Matthew and Mark say, "See, then flee."  A manifest space/time event causing flight. 

I think what it is, the A of D, is the idea behind "standing where it should not be (let the reader understand)," and "‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)" Certainly Daniel described this thing. Certainly Antiochus IV did that thing. Certainly it's going to happen again in relation to the end of the age. 

Why can it not be just that? Daniel gave us information that Jesus told us to look to and understand so we're aware of what it is. We should see with our eyes something where it should not be that causes horrific repulsion, understood though past events and a written declaration. Then get out of Dodge. 

Sure, the focus is Judea. Likely because it's the epicenter of the plan of God and the rebellion of the beast. Sure, there are spiritual ramifications but that doesn't preclude temporal space/time manifestations. Surely the focus is on the Jewish temple and the appalling horror that will take place there. That does not mean it's meaningless to the rest of the world and in fact is just as serious to all souls as it is to the region where it occurred. It's the symbol of the takeover by the beast. In Satan's mind he has finally usurped the Father and to let everyone know he ostentatiously places himself at the pinnacle of worship in the presumptuously christened 'Temple of God'. That we know what and where the true Temple of God is does not mean this act of rebellion in the stone Temple is less real, less symbolic, less horrific, or less of an abomination in the eyes of God.

I would argue that apart from a physical, temporal manifestation the spiritual is not affective. Jesus literally walked the earth.  Jesus died physically to remit sin as required by spiritual truth of a blood covering of sin.

By that example the A of D will occur physically as described no matter if references are past or future.