How does it start?

[Salvation67]

IMO, The gathering and removal (a.k.a the rapture) of the Church or Christs bride put another way, will be the "trigger" to it all. Once the "restrainer is taken out of the way" then its game on. The Church or the Bride of Christ in no longer mentioned through Revelation. BTW The saints that are mentioned in Revelation are those that are saved DURING the tribulation. 

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

It is hard to see the misconception of the words, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan. 12:1-2

If you don't think this passage, which begins its narrative at 11:40, is End Times, then you probably shouldn't be into prophecy at all.

Hi WilliamL,

Thanks for your input. In Daniel there are several places where you will find, "the time of the end" but there is a difference among them. For example, in Dan. 8:17 it appears relating to the kingdoms of Media and Persia and the kingdom of the Grecia. These things are historical facts concerning what went on between these parties. One verse in that chapter even says it will be the latter time of their kingdom. 

In Dan.9 the angel tells Daniel he will give him understanding of the vision, which he does in ch. 11 as well. The same kingdoms are mentioned here, you have to read a bit before v. 40. Scholars point out the amazing fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies being so clear that skeptics long believed the book was written after they took place.

Now when you get to ch. 12 you can see that is a different time. (there were no chapters etc.) A time when there is a resurrection that follows a time like there has never before. These things have NOT happened yet.  This is why I call attention to the word that begins the chapter and its alternate uses. For example, "a certain time", "the proper time", "a longer time",etc. It makes it clear then that many translators simply took the most common usage instead of considering causing the discrepancy. So, in certain places where it says the time of the end, it should be taken to mean the end of these things here being prophesied about these kingdoms. Or, the end of this vision. 

 I don't mind if people disagree, but they usually don't account for the historical events covered by these prophecies.

[WilliamL]

On 6/16/2020 at 6:46 PM, Uriah said:

Thanks for your input. In Daniel there are several places where you will find, "the time of the end" but there is a difference among them. For example, in Dan. 8:17 it appears relating to the kingdoms of Media and Persia and the kingdom of the Grecia. These things are historical facts concerning what went on between these parties. One verse in that chapter even says it will be the latter time of their kingdom. 

TRUE

In Dan.9 the angel tells Daniel he will give him understanding of the vision, which he does in ch. 11 as well. The same kingdoms are mentioned here, you have to read a bit before v. 40. Scholars point out the amazing fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies being so clear that skeptics long believed the book was written after they took place.

Not accurate. You are glossing over the meaning of the verses in their context, none of which you quoted.

Now when you get to ch. 12 you can see that is a different time. (there were no chapters etc.) A time when there is a resurrection that follows a time like there has never before. These things have NOT happened yet.  This is why I call attention to the word that begins the chapter and its alternate uses. For example, "a certain time", "the proper time", "a longer time",etc. It makes it clear then that many translators simply took the most common usage instead of considering causing the discrepancy. So, in certain places where it says the time of the end, it should be taken to mean the end of these things here being prophesied about these kingdoms. Or, the end of this vision.

You completely ignore the beginning words of chapter 12, "And at that time..." At what time? The time of the last event of chapter 11, when the King of the North sets up the tents of his pavilion on the glorious holy mountain. Being the event of, or just before, the abomination of desolation.

If the time of chapter 12 is latter day, then the last event of chapter 11 is also latter day; which it is.

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by WilliamL

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Not accurate. You are glossing over the meaning of the verses in their context, none of which you quoted.

There is no verse quoted by you, btw. But I am sure you have seen where the angel told Daniel he came to give him understanding. There were NO chapter divisions so you can then see the continuing testimony of the angel in the following chapters. By the time he gets into more details we are in ch. 11.

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You completely ignore the beginning words of chapter 12, "And at that time..." At what time? The time of the last event of chapter 11, when the King of the North sets up the tents of his pavilion on the glorious holy mountain. Being the event of, or just before, the abomination of desolation.

Actually, I didn't ignore it at all. I indicated how the phrase "At that time" is from one word and that same word is used differently in other places. The way it is used elsewhere fits better and one can assume translators simply used the most common usage regardless of what the damage it does to the context. Translating is said to be an art as well as a science. I think the vast majority feel safe in numbers and go with the group  while turning away form a difficult word/usage.

[WilliamL]

On 6/23/2020 at 7:09 PM, Uriah said:

I indicated how the phrase "At that time" is from one word and that same word is used differently in other places.

Utterly false; you apparently don't read Hebrew. It is three words, counting the prefixed preposition as one of them.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Utterly false; you apparently don't read Hebrew. It is three words, counting the prefixed preposition as one of them.

The ability to read Hebrew is not a prerequisite to understand scriptures. There are tools that let you see the structure, usages and simple rules to follow etc. 

Now the Phrase "At that time" is used many times in the O.T. But there are time when the word "eyth" does not appear on the page as "at that time" nor would it be fitting to do so.

עֵת ʻêth, ayth; from H5703; time, especially (adverb with preposition) now, when, etc.:— after, (al-) ways, × certain, continually, evening, long, (due) season, so (long) as, (even-, evening-, noon-) tide, (meal-), what) time, when.

Sometimes it correlates with, "in due season" or, "the time", "neither is it time", "this time", "all seasons", "eventide", and on and on. By far it IS "at that time".  But what makes it change? Same word! Well sometimes it is the preceding adverb or preposition as indicated above. But when those aren't available, it is the CONTEXT that is relied upon. (BTW adverbs and prepositions also can control context)

In the case of Dan. 12:1 we have a situation where the context must be relied upon. And the context of a time of trouble like none other followed by resurrection informs us that it is a different time than the discourse regarding ancient kings/kingdoms. It is pointing to a future time (no?) A unique time, special time, certain time, ultimate time. So just like we are able to do, the angel was able to move on to another time. 

[WilliamL]

On 6/25/2020 at 4:06 PM, Uriah said:

In the case of Dan. 12:1 we have a situation where the context must be relied upon. And the context of a time of trouble like none other followed by resurrection informs us that it is a different time than the discourse regarding ancient kings/kingdoms. It is pointing to a future time (no?)

Of course it is pointing to a future time, as I have continually stated.

You keep ignoring the syntax of 12:1 : "At that time..." What time? -- "that" requires an antecedent. And the only possible antecedent in the text in the previous verse, Dan. 11:45 --

...the King of the North shall set up the tents of his pavilion at the glorious Holy Mountain...

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Of course it is pointing to a future time, as I have continually stated.

You keep ignoring the syntax of 12:1 : "At that time..." What time? -- "that" requires an antecedent. And the only possible antecedent in the text in the previous verse, Dan. 11:45 --

...the King of the North shall set up the tents of his pavilion at the glorious Holy Mountain...

So, if that is the case, the time like none before and after and people rising who sleep in the dust is connected with people identified as Media Persians and Greeks. NOT!

Just as people like us are able to do, so also an angel is able to move on to another topic. That is what fits here...BELIEVE  the  SCRIPTURES!

 

 

 

[R. Hartono]

On 6/6/2020 at 5:02 PM, Diaste said:

The time of the witnesses cannot occur during the time of God's wrath. Neither can it occur once the beast is given power and authority for 42 months. This is because the witnesses are not going to endure the wrath of God and because the beast at some point will overcome and kill the witnesses.

 

If the wrath of God begins the witnesses cannot fulfill the 42 months. If the time of the witnesses parallels the time of power and authority of the beast that would mean they are only killed by the beast at the very end and their bodies would lie in the streets, and the earth celebrates, for 3 1/2 days past the end. At some point in the reign of the beast wrath begins. While the beast will continue throughout the entire 42 months and his kingdom endures wrath, the witnesses do not endure God's wrath as God never allows His righteous people to be destroyed. And it's not likely the beast will allows the witnesses to remain alive and in opposition to him once he has power.

That pushes the time of the witnesses back a full 42 months and that 42 months is fulfilled before the beast is given power and authority. Therefore, 7 years. 

 

The 2 Witnesses will explain the world that the punishment is caused by God’s  anger until the beast of bottomless pit released n kill them at the 3,5 years of testimony so the 5th sound of trumpets which release the beast happened at 3,5 years.

Edited July 3, 2020 by R. Hartono