Christians To Become As Numerous As The Stars In The Sky? Yes!

[Faithwilldo]

13 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Jesus came in a physical body the first time, “say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 1:7), He will come again in physical body just as He ascended in s physical body, “After he said this, he was taken upbefore their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11).

Jesus ascended bodily: “36While they were describing these events, Jesus Himself stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 37But they were startled and frightened, thinking they had seen a spirit.“Why are you troubled,” Jesus asked, “and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet. While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?”So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in front of them.” (Luke 24:36-43) 

Acts 1:1-11 says Jesus will return as He ascended and He did so in s body, in fact the return of Christ is discribed in similiar terms:

 

After he said this, he was taken upbefore their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11) 

“ "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen” (Revelation 1:7) 

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:29-30). 

The angels said Jesus would retrn just as He left at the ascension, He left in a body as Luke lays out in passage I shared, so He shall return bodily. 

I read your post above but you are not taking into account what Paul said:

1Cor 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13  These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Scripture is written in a new language.  The meaning of those words are not found in Webster's dictionary .  Scripture is written in spiritual language and the words take on a new meaning.  Even Christ, who is the Word of God, says His words are "spirit".  

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ is spirit now and dwells in the minds of the called and chosen believers.  When scripture says that every eye will see Him, it means that every one will come to know Christ.  To know Christ, one MUST have spiritual eyes and ears that give the person the ability to understand and accept the Truth which is Christ.  The carnal mind which all mankind has from birth cannot understand and accept Christ.  Christ must return to us to give us this ability and He returns to us spiritually (in our minds), without observation from the world.  Christ's second coming is "is, was and will be".  He came to the believers in the upper room and has been coming to all His chosen Elect since that time.  The second coming of Christ is not a one time event that all the earth will see together.  It is an individual event that occurs in the life of each person when they are saved.  The Elect are saved now and all others will be saved at the end of the final age.  Every eye will see him and all mankind will be saved.  

The reason scripture says that Christ ascend into the clouds and will come again in the same manner is because the "clouds" represent Christ being concealed.  Christ is hidden from the world AND also from those who are called to follow Him.  It is only at the second coming of Christ that a believer receives "eyes and ears" to understand and know Christ.  That happens when Christ comes out from the clouds (His concealment).  That is what that verse is teaching.  It is not teaching about what kind of body Christ has.  

Luke 17:20-21  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:   Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Your understanding of a bodily, one time return is contradicted by "cometh not with observation".  Physical eyes are not necessary to "see" Christ.  He is spirit and comes to us in our minds.  Paul conversion is the pattern given to us whereby all will be saved.  It does not require a bodily return of Christ to this world.

1Tim 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Since Paul is the "pattern" for how one is saved, we need to closely look at Paul's conversion which is given to us in Acts 9: 3-15.  

In order to understand the “pattern”, we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.   This will take a little time but I will summarize it the best I can.

This first set of verses below represent Paul’s time of being Called into the Church.  This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Acts 9:3-9  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:  4  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?  5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.  6  And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.  7  And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.  8  And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.  9  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to enter the Church.   

The key parts of Paul’s calling are underlined in the verses above and are explained below verse by verse. 

Verse 3:  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:   

When an individual is “called out” from this world to follow Christ, Christ will appear to them suddenly and without invitation.  We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ as is commonly taught in the Church.   Christ’s gifts and calling are without repentance (Rom 11:29) and are by His will and not ours (John 1:12-13).  When Christ does appears to us, it is a spiritual event that happens within us (Luk 17:21).  Christ cannot be seen with human eyes.                                                                                                                                                               

Verses 4 & 5:  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?   And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

When Christ spiritually appears to an unbeliever, they immediately fall to the earth.  This symbolizes their carnality and their having risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell on the earth.   Since the new believer remains carnal and spiritually blind, they cannot recognize the “voice” that calls to them.  They must rely on being told who He is.  Since Paul answers back to the voice as “Lord”, we know that this event is the Early Rain of the Spirit upon the individual (1Cor 12:3).  We call Him Lord but lack the ability to know Him for ourselves.  He remains hidden from our understanding.                                                                                                                                                   

Verse 6:   And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

From our carnal perspective, we believe that we must produce good works to please the Lord and that is why Paul immediately asks “what wilt thou have me to do?”  The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city.  The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt.  Once in the city, someone (Church leaders) will tell him what he must do.   At that point, the new believer “falls away”.

Verse 7:  And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

No one with Paul experienced what Paul did.  This appearance by Christ is only for the person who has been “called” by Christ.   It is a completely spiritual event – meaning it happens “between our ears”.  

Verse 8:  And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 

After Paul opens his eyes, he “saw no man”.  This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness.   It goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand.  This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines of the Church (the blind leading the blind).  The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.  They are forced to follow other men (the teachings of the carnally minded, spiritually blind Church). 

Verse 9:  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Paul was blind and sick in bed for 3 days.  The number “3” represents spiritual death.   Paul’s time of blindness & death represents the time of Great Tribulation that each new believer must endure in the Church.  It is the time of our “falling away” (2Thes 2:3).  The new believer is now in the Church and has no ability to know the Truth which would set them free from her.   Since Paul cannot receive the true bread from Heaven while in this spiritually darkened state, the scripture says that Paul does not “eat or drink” during the 3 days.   It is at this point that the new believer becomes a Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition.   He is now “fallen away” and tries to please God through works of the flesh.  Just the simple belief in the Doctrine of “Free Will” will cause a believer to fall away.  By believing in that doctrine, we take credit for making the “right choice” to follow Christ when in fact, we are not responsible for that decision – Christ is.  He gave us that gift of faith before we repented (Just as Paul “typed” for us on the road to Damascus).   Our salvation (every step of the way) is 100% the work of Christ.         

The second set of verses below represent Christ’s second appearance to Paul (after the 3 days are fulfilled) and Paul’s leaving the Harlot Church and rising to dwell with Christ in Heaven.                                                                                 

Acts 9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:  16  For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.  17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.  18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.  19  And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here are my associated comments with the underlined portions of the above scriptures.

Verse 15:  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current carnal state and that Paul will bear His name to the world.  All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

Verse 16:  For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

When we truly follow Christ in this world, we will suffer for it, no exceptions (Rom 8:17 & John 15:20).                       

Verse 17:  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 

Ananias symbolizes Christ who will come to His Chosen to give them sight (spiritual understanding) and the Holy Spirit.                                                                                                                   

Verse 18:  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

When Christ comes a second time to those who have been Called & Chosen, among the gifts that He gives them are spiritual understanding, spiritual life and the Holy Spirit.   This event is called the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Holy Spirit.         

Verse 19:  And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

After these “gifts” from Christ, Paul “eats” of the true bread from heaven (Truth) and is spiritually strengthened.   

Joe

[Fidei Defensor]

33 minutes ago, Josheb said:

What makes you think Luke 18:8 is about numbers? You do understand, as I believe I previously noted, there are more than two billion Christians on the planet right now. At the turn of the 20th century there were 600 million. As a percentage of the population this relatively unchanged for the last 100+ years. If Jesus were to come tomorrow your view would instantly prove false. I don't see anything in that verse, in the paragraph, nor the chapter as a whole that indicates this is about numbers. 

So what makes you think Luke 18:8 is about numbers? 

Right now the newer generations are Nones, believe nothing, 70%. They are the future. 

There has been many falling away from the faith as Jesus and Paul foretell: 

“At that time many will fall away from the faith, and will betray and hate one another,11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many. 12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 24:10-13) 

“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” (Matthew 24:22) 

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that last day shall not come, except there come a falling away  from faith first (great apostasy), and that man of sin and lawlessness be revealed, the son of perdition.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

Then there is scriptures like these that paint an end of days with few saints left alive: 

“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.” (1 Timothy 4:1) 

“And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people (Christians, Saints) and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation.” (Revelation 13:7) 

When I add 70% of younger generation are Nones (believe nothing), the prophecies of falling away, and the catastrophes that will kill 1/4 and 1/3 of the world population in Revelation 6:8 and Revelation 19:18 I see actual numbers in all of these. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[Alive]

One hundred and fifty three.

[Fidei Defensor]

Just now, Josheb said:

Thanks, but that's not an answer to my question. I asked what makes you think Luke 18:8 is about numbers. I didn't ask about modern polls. Nor do I think it a very good practice to measure scripture by polls conduct  more than 20 centuries later. 

 

What makes you think Luke 18:8 is about numbers? 

I answered that with Matthew 24:10-13 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3, as cross references to Luke 18:8, that there is going to br Great Apostasy and Falling Away and Luke 18:8 is Jesus lamenting about it. 

I also cited Revelation 6:8 and 9:18 that say 3 Billion of 7 Billion people on earth will be killed by sword, plague, and etc. This is a huge loss in numbers. Then I shared theat the Antichrist will cruah many saints (Revelation 13:7). All of this together is numbers, lots of people falling away and perishing.  

[Fidei Defensor]

1 minute ago, Josheb said:

(josh purses lips) Okay. I'll buy that. 

As a partial-preterist I find none of the verses mentioned applicable as future realities in the 21st century (in principle they still apply), but I see the logic of your rendering given the assumption of far-future application. 

 

The mention 3 billion people getting killed is odd. Have you ever considered what would literally happen were that much of the population to literally die in a brief span of time? Do you know what happens in environments where mass casualties occur? Are you aware of the pestilence and disease that ensues? To date, there have been a little over 130k deaths in the US due to COVID-19. Imagine what would have happened were those deaths not contained, the corpses left out to infect others. Now multiply that by a factor of not ten, not 2o, not 100, not 1000, but 22,000! That is what 3 billion out of 7 billion means if we construe that literally. 

This is somewhat like those who interpret a third of the stars falling to earth literally. Logically, this is untenable. The logical necessity of just one star colliding with earth would mean the cessation of all life on the planet, not just 3 out of 7 billion. Furthermore, the closest stars to earth are the three in Alpha Centauri and they're 4+light years away. In other words, it would take them four years to journey from their location to ours if they were traveling at the speed of light!  And if just one of them collided with the earth traveling at the speed of light the earth would be atomized, vaporized, near-instantly turned to dust. That's what happens if only one of them crashes to earth. There are an estimated 1 billion trillion stars in creation, so a third of them falling to earth renders earth non-existent. That prophesy isn't intended to be taken literally. 

3 billion near-sudden deaths would kill everyone. Please think about this. It's not just a huge loss in numbers; it is a chain of events from which human life would not recover. "Oh God's gonna stop it," is not a scripturally rational answer. 

Or think about it this way because I know many believe a third of the Jews will be killed. Is this not anti-Semitic? What do you call it when someone anticipates (wishes?) death upon that group of people just because they're Jewish? 

 

 

However, your view of Luke 18:8 is accepted within your stated paradigm. I hope you're wrong, especially if those events are soon-occurring. 

I myself am not Preterist in any form. I believe most of the events from Matthew 24, Revelation, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, haven’t happened yet. I believe the Bible is literal (as it states, for example third of stars falling will happen, it means supernovas and blackholes). I take Scripture literally (as it reads) unless its obvious symbolism like the Red Dragon is Satan in Revelation and John 6 when Jesus says drink His blood and eat His body which He clarified later at the Last Supper or Communion.  

I define Scripture with Scripture, commentaries from outside commentators can become mini-magistratiums that taint the Scriptures with the ideas of men. I believe 99% of the Scriptures is literal and clear, and easy to understand, wiyh only 1% being symbolism that requires wisdom to discern via cross referencing and the Holy Spirit.

[Fidei Defensor]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, I understood that from the content of your posts. 

The contents of the post prove otherwise. 

If scripture was used to render scripture then you'd be paying attention to the original intent of the writer, the way the original readers understood what they were reading, the audience's identity, the time qualifiers contained in the passage, and the way other scriptures handle this content. It's quite obvious you read scripture selectively. Appealing to what others do or don't has not basis here in this exchange.  Nothing I've posted has anything to do with others' commentaries and it is fallacious of you to attempt such appeals. 

You believe 99% of scripture is literal but that is a MISTAKEN way of looking at scripture! That position defies your own claim of letting scripture define scripture! For example, in Acts 2 we read Peter, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, defining scripture. I'm gonna repeat that: We read Peter defining scripture, we read New Testament scripture defining Old Testament scripture. 

Acts 2:30-31 
"And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ..."

 

Peter is referring to 2 Samuel 7:13. Look it up. Not only is Peter defining 2 Samuel 7:13, not only is God explaining what He meant, not only is the Holy Spirit authoritatively defining this verse, but.... if you truly do read 99% of scripture literally then you MUST concede to the literal reading of Acts 2:30-31!  You cannot have it both ways, Fidei. If God, through Peter, states he was speaking of the resurrection when He promised David a descendant whose reign would never end then...... He was speaking of the resurrection. Period. That's what it states. That's what it means. Literally. 

So, if you deny the literal reading of what is literally stated then you don't actually use scripture to define scripture. 

Acts t tells us God spoke of the resurrection in the Old Testament. It isn't just 2 Samuel 7:13 that is about the resurrection - it is all those prophesies about the Davidic throne that are about the resurrection! When God oathed to David an eternally-reigning descendant God was speaking of the resurrection. 

Not a physical throne here on earth. 

So when scripture literally tells us not to read something literally it can get confusing.  2 Samuel 7 reads literal when read through an Old Testament mind. But when read through a New Testament Acts 2-informed mind of the Holy Spirit's defining we find 2 Samuel was NEVER intended to be taken literally. What was veiled in the OT was made known in the NT.

 

 

And every fiber of your being is freaking out right now because you know the exegesis proves what I just posted correct but everything you've learned has taught you otherwise. It is you who has been a victim of "commentaries from outside commentators can become mini-magistratiums that taint the Scriptures with the ideas of men," and not the plain reading of scripture defining scripture. I didn't appeal to one single extra-biblical source. I gave you God's word as written, plainly read. I put you on the spot, and I did so intentionally without malice. Acts 2 defines all the verses in the OT about the Davidic throne. 

SO go back and re-read all those OT passages with Acts 2:14-36 in mind because Peter is citing a bunch of OT prophets and prophesies reporting their fulfillment was happening right then and there that day of Pentecost. Those prophesies are future events to Peter and his fellow disciples and new converts; those prophesies were being fulfilled.

Acts 2:14-15 
"Men of Judea, and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk..... this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel."

 

That day's events were what Joel was prophesying about. When God spoke to Joel in Joel 2:28 God was speaking of Pentecost's pouring out of the Spirit in Christ. That's what it states. That's what it means. Literally. Scripture defining scripture. That's not my interpretation; that's what the scripture states. That is how Acts 2 defines 2 Samuel 7 and Joel 2. SO don't get mad at me simply because I point out what scripture says about scripture and cite two explicit examples of scripture defining scripture and don't get mad at me because these two examples refute far-futurist interpretations of the Davidic throne. Scripture states what it states, and what it states in this instance is the oath God made to David was about the resurrection of Christ, not some earthly millennial reign.

 

Copying and pasting various scriptures together is not scripture defining scripture. It is the paster defining scripture by means of eisegesis. 

Big difference. 

 

When did the resurrection of Christ take place? In the first century. 

When did God pour out His Spirit on men and women? In the first century. 

Those prophesies have already been fulfilled. Others remain to be fulfilled but those two prophesies have already been completed and we know this because God Himself said so through the apostle Peter. 

I believe that Scripture speaks plainly, I do not think the average person is barred from understanding it, because it is literal, happened and is happening and will happen. Symbolism is there, as is poetry at times, but I believe these too can be understood with God's guidance, just as Jesus explained the parables to his disciples. 

I believecliberal theology is false, and symbolist views robs the Bible of its potency, and worse turns everything into a gnostic search for secret meanings and downplays what God has done, calling it into question!  I know a liberal christian who thinks the Bible didn’t happen, its just moral legends to him [the pitfall of symbolic view]. I believe the Scriptures are God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16) and are the “very truth of God and not the invention of any man.” (Rich Mullins). I believe what happens in the Bible really happens, literally, Christ will literally return (Revelation 19:11-16) just as He literally died for our sins and rose from the dead. 

Context and who the audience is matters as you say, but teachings surpass context and audience, for instance, “We are saves by grace through fsith,” (Ephesians 2:8-9) is universal, not just for the Church of Ephesus.

Scripture is read in three tiers: 

Tier 1: Literal, it happened or is gonna happen, in the context. “Jesus walked on water,” or “He shall return as you saw him depart.” 

Tier 2: Its a univeral teaching that crosses over contextual lines and who is being spoken to. Example, “saved by grace,” is for all Christians in all time periods, not just Ephesus. 

Tier 3: Lectio Divina, a Scripture when read, though said to particular person or in a particular context jumps out at you and God uses it to apply to your spiritual walk and relationship with Him. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[TheBlade]

Thanks Jag

 

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Technically that would be true, if you also count the people that say they are christian because they go to church when there is a christening or funeral, but do not go to church often. What about people who pray to god and say they believe in Jesus, that makes the amount of "Christians" higher. True Christians are no very common, the bible says that few will be saved.