Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/24/2020 at 8:15 AM, David1701 said:

Before being born again, no matter what the Lord is doing in your life, no matter how alarmed or convicted you might be, the condition of your spirit is unsaved and unspiritual.  If someone is elect (and we can't know who is or is not, until the person is saved), then God WILL save him, by giving him a new heart/spirit that wants to please God and that believes in him.  If he is not elect, then he will be left in the sin that he desires and any alarm or conviction will merely serve to increase his accountability before God.

Shalom, David1701.

Agreed! I'm very pleased to hear you say these things. Yes, it is GOD'S business, after all.

Now, I want you to try something: Instead of using the words "unsaved" and "saved" and "God WILL save him," use the words "unjust" and "justified by God" and "God WILL justify him," respectively.

See, technically, especially when it comes to prophecy, the word "saved" means to be "delivered" or to be "rescued," and usually that is a NATIONAL thing, not a PERSONAL thing.

See, based on Scripture, it's possible to argue against "Once Saved, Always Saved," commonly abbreviated as "OSAS." HOWEVER, the truth is that God does NOT lose those who are His own. Thus, it's NOT possible to argue against "Once Justified by God, ALWAYS Justified by God," or as I abbreviate it, "OJBGAJBG." It takes it out of the hands of the one being justified and puts it back into the hands of the One who does the justifying, where it belongs!

[David1701]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

Agreed! I'm very pleased to hear you say these things. Yes, it is GOD'S business, after all.

Now, I want you to try something: Instead of using the words "unsaved" and "saved" and "God WILL save him," use the words "unjust" and "justified by God" and "God WILL justify him," respectively.

See, technically, especially when it comes to prophecy, the word "saved" means to be "delivered" or to be "rescued," and usually that is a NATIONAL thing, not a PERSONAL thing.

See, based on Scripture, it's possible to argue against "Once Saved, Always Saved," commonly abbreviated as "OSAS." HOWEVER, the truth is that God does NOT lose those who are His own. Thus, it's NOT possible to argue against "Once Justified by God, ALWAYS Justified by God," or as I abbreviate it, "OJBGAJBG." It takes it out of the hands of the one being justified and puts it back into the hands of the One who does the justifying, where it belongs!

I don't agree with all of this; but I'm quite happy to agree with your OJBGAJBG.

Edited July 27, 2020 by David1701

[wingnut-]

On 7/4/2020 at 12:06 PM, JAG** said:

So the question is raised:

What does the future hold for the Christian Church and the Human Race
here on planet Earth? The answer is the Human Race has a magnificent
optimistic bright cheerful future.

 

When you say human race, I suppose it is important to establish what you mean by that.  It would appear that you are referring to people as they are now, in current form, as we are born, grow, and eventually age, up to the point where we return to the dust from where we came.  So I guess my question would be rather simple, since the postmillennial position seems to place us after His return, and asserts that the kingdom of God has already become the kingdom of the world, how do you reconcile that with the following.

 

I Corinthians 15:

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

 

On 7/4/2020 at 12:06 PM, JAG** said:

It is sad indeed that Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and
Dispensationalism repudiates the gospel victory theme of
the Bible in their modern eschatological speculations and
replaces this victory theme with a defeatist scheme of the
future of the Christian Church and Human race. This
paralyzes Christian cultural efforts and eliminates the
practical significance from the Christian worldview, and
gives Christians a sinful comfort in lethargy because all
this Defeatism and Doom and Gloom tends to justify
social and cultural irresponsibility. "Why polish brass
on a sinking ship", ask many misinformed Christians.

 

The attitude attributed above to those who do not prescribe to post-millennialism is patently absurd.  In my entire lifetime I have never heard a Christian say anything remotely close to that or seen it reflected in their walk.  Instead, what this is, is something similar that I've seen regarding different positions, where they cast any other position into the worst light possible to attempt to discredit them.  "Why polish brass on a sinking ship" would be about as extreme a position as one could take, and as I've stated already, I have not once in my lifetime ever heard any Christian utter this or anything remotely close to it.

Suggesting anyone that does not agree with post-millennialism is living a defeated life is also another unfounded accusation.  I certainly don't live my life as defeated, I am a child of the Most High, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and I walk in victory.  Not mine, but His.

The fact of the matter is simple, people of different eschatological views all see us arriving at the exact same place at the end, we just have different understandings of how we get there.

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

When you say human race, I suppose it is important to establish what you mean by that.  It would appear that you are referring to people as they are now, in current form, as we are born, grow, and eventually age, up to the point where we return to the dust from where we came.  So I guess my question would be rather simple, since the postmillennial position seems to place us after His return, and asserts that the kingdom of God has already become the kingdom of the world, how do you reconcile that with the following.

 

I Corinthians 15:

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

 

 

The attitude attributed above to those who do not prescribe to post-millennialism is patently absurd.  In my entire lifetime I have never heard a Christian say anything remotely close to that or seen it reflected in their walk.  Instead, what this is, is something similar that I've seen regarding different positions, where they cast any other position into the worst light possible to attempt to discredit them.  "Why polish brass on a sinking ship" would be about as extreme a position as one could take, and as I've stated already, I have not once in my lifetime ever heard any Christian utter this or anything remotely close to it.

Suggesting anyone that does not agree with post-millennialism is living a defeated life is also another unfounded accusation.  I certainly don't live my life as defeated, I am a child of the Most High, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and I walk in victory.  Not mine, but His.

The fact of the matter is simple, people of different eschatological views all see us arriving at the exact same place at the end, we just have different understandings of how we get there.

I would add that this same sort of 'defeatism' has been glaringly obvious in other posts from different positions that attempt to cast a dark net over 'We' as though that means most or all saints, when this simply cannot be known. It is essentially saying  that if you don't think as I do, then you are deficit. This is a dangerous position to take. It can be also more veiled than glaring, but in all cases obvious. Its my hope that all reading be more aware of this moving forward.

We are better off building up the Body--aren't we? The same Life of Christ is in each of us, working according to His will--teaching and shedding light into our hearts and minds.

[JAG**]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

The fact of the matter is simple, people of different eschatological views all

see us arriving at the exact same place at the end, we just have different

understandings of how we get there.

Agreed.

I apologize for the way I worded what you quoted. I should not 

have written it that way. I should have written it in such a way

as to positively include all your concerns and your legitimate

objections so that it would  NOT have been possible for anyone

to draw the conclusions you drew --- which was my fault for 

the way I wrote it. Sorry.

JAG

Edited July 30, 2020 by JAG**

[wingnut-]

13 minutes ago, JAG** said:

Agreed.

I apologize for the way I worded what you quoted. I should not 

have written it that way. I should have written it in such a way

as to positively include all your concerns and your legitimate

objections. so that it would have not been possible for anyone

to draw the conclusions you drew --- which was my fault for 

the way I wrote it. Sorry.

JAG

 

It is all good brother, honestly since I am familiar with Dr. Gentry and his writings I honestly believed those comments would have come from him.  Regardless, no apology is necessary, I don't believe there was any malice intended on your part or anyone else's.

God bless

[JAG**]

14 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

It is all good brother, honestly since I am familiar with Dr. Gentry and his writings

I honestly believed those comments would have come from him.  Regardless, no

apology is necessary, I don't believe there was any malice intended on your part

or anyone else's.

God bless

Thank you for the kind words. Regarding that quote it very well may have

been Dr. Gentry's. I started to give him credit for it before I posted it,

but honestly before  the good Lord I could not remember if I wrote

that, or if what Gentry wrote just stuck in my mind.  I always give 

credit when I quote some one. But I simply don't know for sure.

I probably should have put ___unknown beside the quote. 

Let me do that now:

"It is sad indeed that Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and
Dispensationalism repudiates the gospel victory theme of
the Bible in their modern eschatological speculations and
replaces this victory theme with a defeatist scheme of the
future of the Christian Church and Human race. This
paralyzes Christian cultural efforts and eliminates the
practical significance from the Christian worldview, and
gives Christians a sinful comfort in lethargy because all
this Defeatism and Doom and Gloom tends to justify
social and cultural irresponsibility. "Why polish brass
on a sinking ship", ask many misinformed Christians."___Unknown

{but possibly JAG's or possibly Gentry's)

Its also possible that I added some of my own thoughts

to what I read that Gentry wrote regarding the 

Doom and Gloom stuff.  Its all a blur and I have

no recollection of it at all.

JAG

 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, JAG** said:

Thank you for the kind words. Regarding that quote it very well may have

been Dr. Gentry's. I started to give him credit for it before I posted it,

but honestly before  the good Lord I could not remember if I wrote

that, or if what Gentry wrote just stuck in my mind.  I always give 

credit when I quote some one. But I simply don't know for sure.

I probably should have put ___unknown beside the quote. 

Let me do that now:

"It is sad indeed that Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and
Dispensationalism repudiates the gospel victory theme of
the Bible in their modern eschatological speculations and
replaces this victory theme with a defeatist scheme of the
future of the Christian Church and Human race. This
paralyzes Christian cultural efforts and eliminates the
practical significance from the Christian worldview, and
gives Christians a sinful comfort in lethargy because all
this Defeatism and Doom and Gloom tends to justify
social and cultural irresponsibility. "Why polish brass
on a sinking ship", ask many misinformed Christians."___Unknown

{but possibly JAG's or possibly Gentry's)

Its also possible that I added some of my own thoughts

to what I read that Gentry wrote regarding the 

Doom and Gloom stuff.  Its all a blur and I have

no recollection of it at all.

JAG

 

Shalom, JAG**.

Despite all this rhetoric, you STILL have the wrong definition of "gospel."

The good news is first and foremost about the Kingdom, and that does NOT refer to the "church!" It is talking about the REIGN OF GOD over Israel in the near future.

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

3 For thus saith the LORD,

"Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money!"

4 For thus saith the Lord GOD,

"My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. 5 Now therefore, what have I here," saith the LORD, "that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl," saith the LORD; "and my name continually every day is blasphemed! 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I!"

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (deliverance; rescue); that saith unto Zion,

"Thy God reigneth!"

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (deliverance; rescue) of our God.

This is what Paul used to describe what he was talking about in Romans 10:

Romans 10:1-18ff (KJV)

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved (delivered; rescued). 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ (the Messiah) is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,

"That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." (Leviticus 18:5) 

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise,

"Say not in thine heart, 'Who shall ascend into heaven?'" (Deuteronomy 30:12)

(that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 

7 "Or, 'Who shall descend into the deep?'" (Deuteronomy 30:13)

(that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it?

"The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart" (Deuteronomy 30:14):

that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus (the Master [is] Yeshua`), and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (delivered; rescued). 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (deliverance; rescue). 11 For the scripture saith,

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For

"whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (delivered; rescued)." (Joel 2:32)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (herald; town cryer)? 15 And how shall they preach (herald), except they be sent? as it is written,

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Isaiah 52:7)

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith,

"Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Isaiah 53:1) 

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily,

"their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Psalm 19:4)

His point is simple: The children of Israel refused to accept their King Apparent, the Messiah of YHWH God, Yeshua`, causing them to NEED a rescue in the future! THAT'S when God will step in and rescue His people! And, when He does, He shall reign over the children of Israel once again, using His Son as the Go-Between who will deliver the commandments of God to the people! When God is reigning on earth once again, THAT will be the fulfillment of the Gospel!

The gospel is NOT, as luigi said, "I will stick to believing 'Love my neighbor as myself' to represent the true Gospel of Christ. This Gospel of love will be preached when all false Messiah's and their systems that claim will solve the world's ills, fail."

That's not the gospel AT ALL!

[iamlamad]

On 7/30/2020 at 11:22 AM, wingnut- said:

 

When you say human race, I suppose it is important to establish what you mean by that.  It would appear that you are referring to people as they are now, in current form, as we are born, grow, and eventually age, up to the point where we return to the dust from where we came.  So I guess my question would be rather simple, since the postmillennial position seems to place us after His return, and asserts that the kingdom of God has already become the kingdom of the world, how do you reconcile that with the following.

 

I Corinthians 15:

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

 

 

The attitude attributed above to those who do not prescribe to post-millennialism is patently absurd.  In my entire lifetime I have never heard a Christian say anything remotely close to that or seen it reflected in their walk.  Instead, what this is, is something similar that I've seen regarding different positions, where they cast any other position into the worst light possible to attempt to discredit them.  "Why polish brass on a sinking ship" would be about as extreme a position as one could take, and as I've stated already, I have not once in my lifetime ever heard any Christian utter this or anything remotely close to it.

Suggesting anyone that does not agree with post-millennialism is living a defeated life is also another unfounded accusation.  I certainly don't live my life as defeated, I am a child of the Most High, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and I walk in victory.  Not mine, but His.

The fact of the matter is simple, people of different eschatological views all see us arriving at the exact same place at the end, we just have different understandings of how we get there.

Well said!

[iamlamad]

On 7/27/2020 at 6:49 AM, David1701 said:

I don't agree with all of this; but I'm quite happy to agree with your OJBGAJBG.

On the other hand, if someone once "justified" by God is determined to live his or her eternity away from God, then God will not force them to live with Him.