Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[David1701]

49 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

On the other hand, if someone once "justified" by God is determined to live his or her eternity away from God, then God will not force them to live with Him. 

Such a person does not exist.

1 John 3:9 (ESV) No-one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:4 (ESV) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

[Retrobyter]

On 8/2/2020 at 9:04 AM, iamlamad said:

On the other hand, if someone once "justified" by God is determined to live his or her eternity away from God, then God will not force them to live with Him. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Yeshua` ("Jesus") said,

Luke 17:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he (Yeshua` or "Jesus") spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

" 'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

" 'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

STOP giving people a proverbial "way out!" Why are you doing this? It's not up to the person who is justified by God! By this time - the time when one comes to God for His mercy, the matter is turned over to GOD for the justification!

David1701 is correct; such a person does not exist. When one is justified by God, he or she is justified BY GOD! WE have nothing to do with it! The ONLY thing one might "bring to the table," so to speak, is one's SINS! And, these sins are then traded with God's righteousness in the Messiah Yeshua`! GOD placed those sins upon His Son and AS THOSE SINS, His Son DIED upon the Roman execution stake!

Isaiah 53:6-12 (KJV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

We also see this reflected in 2 Corinthians 5:

First, we need to see what "having reconciled," "reconciliation," "reconciling," and "be reconciled" mean:

In verse 18, "having reconciled" is the Greek word "katallaxantos" which comes from ...

2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so). From kata and allassoo; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference -- reconcile.

In verse 18, "reconciliation" is the Greek word "katallagees," a form of...

2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'). From katallassoo; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. Restoration to (the divine) favor -- atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

In verse 19, "reconciling" is the Greek word "katallassoon," also a form of "katallassoo," and "reconciliation" is the Greek word "katallagees," again.

In verse 20, "be reconciled" is the Greek word "katallageete," the second person, plural, aorist, imperative, passive form of "katallassoo."

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 (KJV)

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (the Messiah) after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (in the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ (God was in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For ...
he (God) hath made him (the Messiah Yeshua`) to be sin for us, who (Yeshua`) knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Messiah Yeshua`).

THAT'S the trade! THAT'S the exchange! He became our sins, and we become His righteousness - the righteousness of God in Him!

As "our sins," God BRUISED Him and PUT HIM TO GRIEF!

As "God's righteousness in Him," we are given eternal life as a NEW creation!

It's not a "fair trade," but it is indeed a "JUST trade!" So, at God's prerogative, He justifies a sinner and makes him a child of God, and the sinner is "born again!"

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Yeshua` ("Jesus") said,

Luke 17:9-14 (KJV)

9 And he (Yeshua` or "Jesus") spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 

10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,

" 'God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.'

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,

" 'God be merciful to me a sinner.'

14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

STOP giving people a proverbial "way out!" Why are you doing this? It's not up to the person who is justified by God! By this time - the time when one comes to God for His mercy, the matter is turned over to GOD for the justification!

David1701 is correct; such a person does not exist. When one is justified by God, he or she is justified BY GOD! WE have nothing to do with it! The ONLY thing one might "bring to the table," so to speak, is one's SINS! And, these sins are then traded with God's righteousness in the Messiah Yeshua`! GOD placed those sins upon His Son and AS THOSE SINS, His Son DIED upon the Roman execution stake!

Isaiah 53:6-12 (KJV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

We also see this reflected in 2 Corinthians 5:

First, we need to see what "having reconciled," "reconciliation," "reconciling," and "be reconciled" mean:

In verse 18, "having reconciled" is the Greek word "katallaxantos" which comes from ...

2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so). From kata and allassoo; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference -- reconcile.

In verse 18, "reconciliation" is the Greek word "katallagees," a form of...

2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'). From katallassoo; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. Restoration to (the divine) favor -- atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

In verse 19, "reconciling" is the Greek word "katallassoon," also a form of "katallassoo," and "reconciliation" is the Greek word "katallagees," again.

In verse 20, "be reconciled" is the Greek word "katallageete," the second person, plural, aorist, imperative, passive form of "katallassoo."

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 (KJV)

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (the Messiah) after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (in the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ (God was in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message of exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For ...
he (God) hath made him (the Messiah Yeshua`) to be sin for us, who (Yeshua`) knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (the Messiah Yeshua`).

THAT'S the trade! THAT'S the exchange! He became our sins, and we become His righteousness - the righteousness of God in Him!

As "our sins," God BRUISED Him and PUT HIM TO GRIEF!

As "God's righteousness in Him," we are given eternal life as a NEW creation!

It's not a "fair trade," but it is indeed a "JUST trade!" So, at God's prerogative, He justifies a sinner and makes him a child of God, and the sinner is "born again!"

 thanks Roy. I want to tell you a true story that happened to a pastor of the Baptist persuasion:

God showed him a vision of a woman. It happened to be a woman he knew a little. He saw in the vision a demon perch on the woman's shoulder and whisper to her that she was wasting her life singing in church: that she was very beautiful and had an awesome voice, and she could be rich. She chased the devil away a few times, but it kept coming back. finally she began to think about it. This pastor saw the demon then become a black dot in her brain. Jesus explained that before she was being opressed, but now, with the demon inside, she became obsessed.  the man asked Jesus if he should cast it out. Jesus said, just watch. 

Now the woman began to think constantly about it. After a while in the vision she committed adultery. She left her husband and began following her dream. One day she was feeling the Holy Spirit trying to woo her back, and she screamed at God: LEAVE ME ALONE! Then the pastor saw that black dot in her brain move into her spirit. Jesus said, now she is possessed.  The man asked Jesus - do you want me to cast it out? Jesus then astounded the man by say, "no, its now impossible. She cannot be helped now."

The pastor said, "that can't be right - that's different than anything I have ever heard. You will have to show me that in scripture." So Jesus took Him to Hebrews 6 and showed him how this lady and progressed from hearing the good news to being born again, then on to being a mature Christian, enjoying the word of God.  (Hebrews 6 shows a progression from unsaved to saved as a baby Christian to a fully mature Christian that has had power gifts flow through them to help others (Like the gift of Faith).  Then Jesus said, if she had been being oppressed by the devil at the time she screamed for me to leave her alone, I still would have forgiven her - but she was not being oppressed: that was her alone. She is now lost to me forever. 

You see, this was someone who CAME to Jesus by an act of her will, but then chose to LEAVE by an act of her will. It is possible, but only for a mature believer. You cannot take Hebrews 6 out of your bible.  When someone turns away from the ONLY savior, there is no other savior left.  

This pastor learned that OSAS is a myth. People COME To God by their own will: ("Whosoever will" may come.) If they become a mature believer, passing this Hebrews 6 test, and then choose or WILL to leave God, then God will let them go. 

In other words, what people do AFTER they are born again can affect their salvation.  Someone said such a person does not exist. They were mistaken.

Edited August 9, 2020 by iamlamad

[Spock]

Postmillennialism
expects that eventually the vast majority of men living will be
saved. Increasing gospel success will gradually produce a
time in history prior to Christ's return in which faith,
righteousness, peace, and prosperity will prevail in the
affairs of men and nations. After an extensive era of such
conditions the Lord will return visibly, bodily, and gloriously,
to end history with the general resurrection and the final
Judgment after which the eternal order follows."
___ Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry.
 

How  is this working out so far?   Are things going as expected?

[Spock]

On 8/9/2020 at 9:06 AM, iamlamad said:

 thanks Roy. I want to tell you a true story that happened to a pastor of the Baptist persuasion:

God showed him a vision of a woman. It happened to be a woman he knew a little. He saw in the vision a demon perch on the woman's shoulder and whisper to her that she was wasting her life singing in church: that she was very beautiful and had an awesome voice, and she could be rich. She chased the devil away a few times, but it kept coming back. finally she began to think about it. This pastor saw the demon then become a black dot in her brain. Jesus explained that before she was being opressed, but now, with the demon inside, she became obsessed.  the man asked Jesus if he should cast it out. Jesus said, just watch. 

Now the woman began to think constantly about it. After a while in the vision she committed adultery. She left her husband and began following her dream. One day she was feeling the Holy Spirit trying to woo her back, and she screamed at God: LEAVE ME ALONE! Then the pastor saw that black dot in her brain move into her spirit. Jesus said, now she is possessed.  The man asked Jesus - do you want me to cast it out? Jesus then astounded the man by say, "no, its now impossible. She cannot be helped now."

The pastor said, "that can't be right - that's different than anything I have ever heard. You will have to show me that in scripture." So Jesus took Him to Hebrews 6 and showed him how this lady and progressed from hearing the good news to being born again, then on to being a mature Christian, enjoying the word of God.  (Hebrews 6 shows a progression from unsaved to saved as a baby Christian to a fully mature Christian that has had power gifts flow through them to help others (Like the gift of Faith).  Then Jesus said, if she had been being oppressed by the devil at the time she screamed for me to leave her alone, I still would have forgiven her - but she was not being oppressed: that was her alone. She is now lost to me forever. 

You see, this was someone who CAME to Jesus by an act of her will, but then chose to LEAVE by an act of her will. It is possible, but only for a mature believer. You cannot take Hebrews 6 out of your bible.  When someone turns away from the ONLY savior, there is no other savior left.  

This pastor learned that OSAS is a myth. People COME To God by their own will: ("Whosoever will" may come.) If they become a mature believer, passing this Hebrews 6 test, and then choose or WILL to leave God, then God will let them go. 

In other words, what people do AFTER they are born again can affect their salvation.  Someone said such a person does not exist. They were mistaken.

Interesting story iamlad.  Thanks for sharing it.

one question, what does it mean when Paul says in Ephesians we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit?  Can we be unsealed? Thanks.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, Spock said:

Interesting story iamlad.  Thanks for sharing it.

one question, what does it mean when Paul says in Ephesians we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit?  Can we be unsealed? Thanks.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

I think it is obvious by the story that when the demonic spirit moved into her spirit, the Holy Spirit moved out. But it is only a guess because that was not said.  Paul was very worried about the Galatians Christians; some of them, due to persecution, wanted (or did) go back under the law. Paul warned them, if they go back under the law, Christ would be of no profit for them.