The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[iamlamad]

46 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

No, I am basing this on the FACT ONE WORD is being used in every Verse.   There's no way around it.  That is the factual translation whether you like it or accept it.

Oh! I get it. You are someone that is always right - even if you are not. OK. Have it your way.

[iamlamad]

49 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

You literally just make this up as you go, don't you?

 

If you don't know these things, why are you here?  Do you wish to learn?

Edited August 10, 2020 by iamlamad

[Alive]

C’mon brothers...let’s not get personal and stick to the topic.

A heated topic doesn’t have to get hot.

[Spock]

Good morning Delight, love your enthusiasm...

I will just share a few thoughts with you to ponder if you like.

1. the church is not destined to experience God’s wrath...promises made throughout NT.

2. so I feel 100% confident church won’t be in the final 3.5 years after the abomination.

3. I’m not 100% sure church is excluded from the first half of the 70th week because I’m not 100% sure when God’s wrath begins.

4. I’ve not seen anywhere in scripture that says the church is exempt from the entire week....just exempt from God’s wrath.

5. I do believe the first 5 seals have been released since Jesus’ ascension and next up is the 6th seal, but I’m not sure when that is released....before 70th week or sometime in the first 3.5 years....not sure.

6. I believe Matthews account of the Olivet Discourse is Jewish laden, not really meant for the church. The apostles asked three questions, none had to do with a rapture...I’m sure they didn’t even know what a rapture was. 
7. the church is returning to earth with Christ in Rev 19 so to me that negates any post Trib theory

8. the Bible is clear telling us to look for Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist. I am....

9. I think pre Trib may not be the best label for this doctrine because the Bible never talks about 7 years of tribulation, only 3.5 years (1260 days, 42 months, times, times and half a time). 
10. 1 thes 4 and 1 cor 15 is all I need to know about a rapture....it is definitely happening and In my opinion definitely before God unleashed his wrath....after 6th seal.

thats all for now. I will try to answer any questions you may have. Cheers.

spock

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Spock said:

Good morning Delight, love your enthusiasm...

I will just share a few thoughts with you to ponder if you like.

1. the church is not destined to experience God’s wrath...promises made throughout NT.

2. so I feel 100% confident church won’t be in the final 3.5 years after the abomination.

3. I’m not 100% sure church is excluded from the first half of the 70th week because I’m not 100% sure when God’s wrath begins.

4. I’ve not seen anywhere in scripture that says the church is exempt from the entire week....just exempt from God’s wrath.

5. I do believe the first 5 seals have been released since Jesus’ ascension and next up is the 6th seal, but I’m not sure when that is released....before 70th week or sometime in the first 3.5 years....not sure.

6. I believe Matthews account of the Olivet Discourse is Jewish laden, not really meant for the church. The apostles asked three questions, none had to do with a rapture...I’m sure they didn’t even know what a rapture was. 
7. the church is returning to earth with Christ in Rev 19 so to me that negates any post Trib theory

8. the Bible is clear telling us to look for Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist. I am....

9. I think pre Trib may not be the best label for this doctrine because the Bible never talks about 7 years of tribulation, only 3.5 years (1260 days, 42 months, times, times and half a time). 
10. 1 thes 4 and 1 cor 15 is all I need to know about a rapture....it is definitely happening and In my opinion definitely before God unleashed his wrath....after 6th seal.

thats all for now. I will try to answer any questions you may have. Cheers.

spock

That was very logical, Spock!

[Spock]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

That was very logical, Spock!

Lol....thanks lad...I try to keep things simple. 

[Dennis1209]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:21 PM, The Light said:

This is out of context. This is a verse for the Jews.

What does the Word say about the fig tree? It says there are two harvests in the fig tree, and of course the fig tree has two harvests.

The fathers of the Jews were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other gods. So the Gentiles will become the 1st harvest.

Hos 9

¹⁰ I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

What is the purpose of the Gentiles being the first harvest?

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

How do the Gentiles provoke the Jews to jealousy? The Gentiles are the 1st harvest, and the Jews will see it.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

There will be a harvest, a rapture before the time of Jacobs trouble. Jacobs trouble occurs in the 1st six seals. Bottom line, there will be a pretribulation rapture as the scriptures constantly show. If you don't see it, it is no great wonder as He is coming in a time you think not.

 

 

Hello The Light,

We all know this is a centuries long stumbling block and debate, and I'm not out to argue, debate or discuss my personal hermeneutics on the timing of the Rapture. I'll just say I've always been pretrib and will continue in that belief. 

You and others have raised interesting points pertaining to provoking the Jew's to jealousy and when the Rapture occurs in your views; and raises some interesting questions to ponder. Providing my biblical view and understanding is correct, the first three and one half years of the tribulation; Israel and the Jew's are living in relative peace. As they are living under the umbrella of a false covenant from the Antichrist. It appears all Hell breaks loose in Israel and for the Jew's beginning at the abomination of desolation, when Antichrist is in the Temple declaring himself as god. At this point forward, it's the point of God's wrath, and mentioned as "the time of Jacob's trouble". The Jew's as a nation will not call upon the name of Jesus to return and save them until it's hopeless and a last resort.

Question: If the Rapture of the church has previously occurred, and millions of true born again believers and the true church are no longer walking the planet; as a nation, why are the Jew's not provoked to jealousy and accept their Messiah they rejected? I can only think of a few logical explanations in my finite gray matter.

[1] Global communications have been temporarily disrupted by the power of the Resurrection / Rapture, EMP or CME or something, and they don't know about it?

[2] This is a period of unprecedented supernatural signs and wonders. The very first warning Jesus gives in Luke 21:8 and Matthew 24:4 is; "take heed that ye be not deceived." Perhaps Israel as a nation believes the 'lie' and signs and wonders the Antichrist and False Prophet puts forth? What would be so powerful, that in this day of 'enlightenment' would be accepted and believed?

Does the following sound plausible? Look at how long we've been conditioned and brain washed about UFO's through a myriad of purported events, books, documentaries, movies and TV shows. The millions globally that have witnessed them. The millions spent on UFO investigations by global governments, NGO's, SETI, and the now soft disclosure of our government releasing video footage of fighter jets chasing UFO'S performing maneuvers and speeds that defy our physical laws. Active duty Field grade military officers giving official news media interviews on the subject. The military changing and modifying protocol and procedures for UFO encounters and reporting procedures, etc. The many atheist secular geneticists now admitting it's impossible DNA could have formed by evolution and chance, but was designed. Now they've changed their tune to fit it into their religion of evolution that; our planet and the universe must have been "seeded" by advanced extraterrestrial life [panspermia]. 

Thoughts??

[DeighAnn]

I believe "passed away" is the end of an age, not the complete destruction and perishing of the entire universe.  

And I saw a heaven new and an earth new for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away 565
565  aperchomai
to go away, go after

and the sea not is any longer
I also think "the end of an age", because of the mention the sea, a detail of earth.    

What immediately follows
And the city holy, Jerusalem new I saw coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride having been adorned for the husband of her

attests to that, Imho.  
If  they had been "been done away with" physically, it would be an event large enough for a mention, for sure. God gives creation details in  Genesis and Job that shows a bit of the details and Gods love of this planet  When God creates He tells us.   
And isn't this Gods favorite place in the universe? It is here on this planet, Jerusalem.  And what do we see coming down?  New Jerusalem. Also, what would be the purpose of an entire new heaven and earth once all evil is destroyed of the face of this one.  This is a big gorgeous planet. It is a living plant. 
Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The earth also awaits the "new body" same as we do but I think the total cleansing  of it.  

 

And I heard a voice great from the throne, saying:  Behold the tabernacle of God with men and He will tabernacle with them, and they peoples of Him will be and Himself God with them will be their God

And He will wipe away every tear from the eyes of them, and death not will be any longer nor mourning nor crying nor pain not they will be any longer, because the former things have passed away. 

And said the {One} sitting on the throne, Behold new I make all things  And He says, Write because these the words faithful and TRUE are
 

And He said to me, It is done!  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.  I to the thirsting will give of the spring of the water of life freely

The overcoming (3528)  will inherit all things, and I will be his God and he will be My son

3528 nikao
to conquer, prevail
I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue
The verb implies a battle

 

But to the cowardly (1169) 

1169
deilos
cowardly, fearful, 
timid, 
an adjective derived from deido -  fear-driven
properly - dreadful -  describing a person who loses their "moral gumption" (fortitude) that is needed to follow the Lord

(fearful of losses) refers to an excessive fear (dread) of losing, causing some one to be fainthearted (cowardly) hence to fall short in following Christ as Lord

is always used negatively in the NT and stands in contrast to the positive fear which can be expressed by 

5401
phobos 
fear Phil 2:12

and unbelieving

571
apistos
incredible, unbelieving, unchristian

From a (as a negative particle) and pistos; (actively) disbelieving, i.e. Without Christian faith (specially, a heathen); (passively) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing) -- that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever(-ing).
 

and having become abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, the portion of them in the lake burning with fire and brimstone which is the death second

 

 

2 Peter 3:10  Will come however day of the Lord like a thief, in which the heavens with a roar
will pass away (3928), elements (4747), then burning with heat will be dissolved (3089) and earth (1093) and the
in it works not will be found

3928  parerchomai
to pass by, to come to

Used - I pass by, pass out of sight: am rendered void
become vain, neglect, disregard

metaphorically - to pass away, perish

4747
stoicheion one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet) by extention the 
elements (of knowledge)

Used - plural :the heavenly bodies
a rudiment, an element (4747), a rudimentary principle, an elementary rule

properly - fundamentals, basic components of
a philosophy,, structure 

3089  to loose, to release, to dissolve

Used - I loose, untie, release
met: I break, destroy, set at naught, contravene: I break up a meeting, annul

1093 ge
the earth, land, soil, region, country, inhabitants of a region

the arena we live in which operates in space and time which God uses
to prepare us for eternity
 

If I am still alive, I will remain until the 2nd Advent of the Lord. And Yes, This would be my choice, if indeed any choice were to be given.  Standing up for the WORD OF GOD is more important to me than my own comfort and safety while in the flesh.  It isn't even a contest.   I am at peace with what ever happens while I am in this flesh. I believe in the power of the Lord.  I believe in the Promises given.  I do not separate the promises from the duties.


So I state again, this is my faith
I believe this beseeching is sent to me and all those like me, and this beseeching comes from an issue come about by the first visit and first letter written by Paul, 1 Thess, 

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

I believe there will be attempts to deceive me about THAT DAY and when IT actually will happen.  

 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

I believe that there must come a falling from heaven 
there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her UNTIMELY figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
I believe this is what causes the falling away of those who profess to be Christians, as deception ramps up, as the Deceiver deceives. I believe that Gods people perish from lack of knowledge.

I believe this is what Jesus was referring to when He said
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I believe this is in reference to Satan
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

I believe in the power of this gift given to us by Jesus .  I believe in the promises and powers of the LORD.
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
 

I believe that until 
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
comes to pass, I have been instructed to let NOTHING and NO ONE deceive me INTO BELIEVING that "IT WOULD HAPPEN ANY OTHER WAY OR ANY OTHER TIME"    THE WORD OF GOD  gives me instructions.  ANYONE that tries to sell me a different story is a seller I am not to buy from.  

I believe that Paul was referring to the 1st letter he wrote to the Thessalonians in this 2nd letter.  I believe he had been there and he had instructed them on the subject of "THE DAY OF CHRIST" and "OUR GATHERING TO HIM".    I believe he had a short time later heard they were not applying what they had SPOKEN about, his reference to "by word" nor what he had WRITTEN, his reference "nor by letter from us" correctly, and so he sent this 2nd letter to MAKE SURE that he put them in remembrance of THE TRUTH, with 

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



I believe the only part of the 1st letter that has to do with Christs Return is found in

1 Thessalonians 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
in which Paul was ONLY explaining that we are not to be left rotting in a hole in the ground until Christ returns, (HE GIVES NO TIME IN THAT 1ST LETTER) but that we ascend as Christ ascended and that is how they are able to return with Him.


I believe the 2nd letter SETS A DEFINITE TIME OF CHRISTS RETURN and makes me believe that 'THE TIME OF HIS RETURN' IS WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM" the church was having.  

 

I believe he had spoken to them of the war and Satan getting kicked out of heaven and so made this statement
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


I believe he felt deception working all around him as he was laboring for the Lord and he was giving them a  "heads up" about  it and letting them know that "we are on Gods time" and until that war in heaven, there would be no return of Christ, no gathering.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

I have no wish to escape the tribulation.  My wish is to be here for the Lord to use me for His will, what ever His will may be. 

I feel

 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

I believe that.  The Lord said it, it is my truth.  Jesus sees Satan fall from heaven and HE GIVES ME POWER OVER ALL THE POWER OF THE ENEMY.  I ask myself "Why would my Lord do that if indeed I did not need it, and why give this to me RIGHT AFTER TELLING ME SATAN FELL?"

I have only one conviction that comes upon my heart and our instructions, found over and over all say the same thing 

WE ARE TRIED/TESTED/HAVE TRIBULATION, DISTRESSED, PERSECUTED, BEATEN, KILLED, these lists goes on and on and on.  

WE ARE TOLD GOOD THINGS HAPPEN FOR THOSE WHO WATCH, STAND, OVERCOME, ENDURE TO THE END AVIRGIN

WE ARE TO REMAIN FAITHFUL, WORKING, PRAYING, LOVING, PRAISING, SPREADING THE WORD

WE ARE TO WEAR ARMOR, GIVEN POWER OVER OUR ENEMIES, NOT LOVE OUR LIFE UNTO DEATH

WE ARE TOLD GOD IS NOT A RESPECTOR OF PERSON, ALL ARE MADE ONE IN CHRIST AND OF ABRAHAMS SEED. 



2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
 

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Luke 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

I don't believe the "Body of Christ" has an earth age limit.  I believe the fullness of the Gentiles is a calling to salvation through faith in Christ. I believe that when the fullness of them is achieved that blindness will come off of Israel so they too will have time, just as the gentiles have had,  to come to Christ.  I don't believe they will be MADE to go into the tribulation still blind so it can be by their own free will,  accept or reject the Lord and Saviour, just as the gentiles, however they so choose.  

I don't believe if Christ were to be walking in the flesh upon the earth when tribulation came that He would leave.  I believe no matter what He would stay.  So, I believe the body of Christ remains until every last soul that can be saved is saved as that is Gods will. 
 

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.




 

 

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Guest theElect777]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Oh! I get it. You are someone that is always right - even if you are not. OK. Have it your way.

I was thinking the SAME THING about YOU!

[Guest theElect777]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you don't know these things, why are you here?  Do you wish to learn?

I have been pointing out the facts.

Edited August 11, 2020 by theElect777