The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[The Light]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your memory is short. That is not the way it has happened. I give good scriptures, you deny their normal meaning. You say they mean something else. You are free to move anything in Revelation anywhere else to fit.  Therefore, we have no point of reference. 
For example, JEsus, the HEAD OF THE CHURCH said to me,

"why did John not see me at the right hand of the father in chapter 4? there are over a dozen verses showing that is where I should have been. Stephen SAW me there." 

His point is easy to see: He was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the father. His further point was, WHY: It was while He was on earth. John was seeing a vision of the past. 

You don't believe that. Well, you WILL one day. You can take that to the bank. 

Here's Rev 5:6

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Looks to me like the elders are in the midst of the throne. That would be because the rapture has already happened.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Spock said:

I think you would be better off to say the 7th trumpet is at the end of the 42 month rule of the Beast, rather than at the midpoint (abomination).  I do not believe heaven is shouting, “the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord” at the abomination (the time the Beast will now be ruling) until Jesus returns to the planet to stay.   That to me makes a lot more sense than your explanation of 6000 years are up at the abomination. Your explanation sounds more like you trying to fit something in in order to promote your beliefs.  Don’t you agree my interpretation to be much more sound and LOGICAL?   You know you do, even if you can’t admit it......  In fact, maybe you got the 7s right but misinterpreted what the Spirit was telling you:

7th seal.....at the abomination....makes sense, this is when heaven was silent when the Beast was resurrected and did his abomination thingy.

7th trumpet......end of the Beast 42 month rule.....and now finally the kingdom of the world is no longer having to be influenced by the false trinity....time is up fellows, go to your corners (hades or abyss). 

7th vial.....at the end of day 1290 (this is just me speculating) 

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

I think you would be better off to say the 7th trumpet is at the end of the 42 month rule of the Beast, rather than at the midpoint (abomination)  I cannot say that, for his 42 months begins in chapter 13, AFTER 12:6 where those in Judea begin their flight. 
Take careful note that there are FIVE (5) countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week in chapters 11, 12, and 13, PROVING these are midpoint chapters. The last of these countdowns in for the man of sin turned Beast. (I take Revelation in the order given.)

.  I do not believe heaven is shouting, “the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord” at the abomination (the time the Beast will now be ruling)  he has not STARTED ruling yet, but soon will. You have to take Revelation in the order given! JOHN wrote of the fleeing just after the Kingdom transfer. 

until Jesus returns to the planet to stay.   Have you never been to a property closing? It is only a LEGAL transfer of property from one entity to another. There is no physical possession: the closing is done at a neutral place.  Remember, Jesus returns in chapter 19!

Your explanation sounds more like you trying to fit something in in order to promote your beliefs.  I am following the text. Did you ever ASK God why Satan loses at that point in time. Perhaps you never read that ancient Jewish sages (perhaps before Moses) wrote that since God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th, then MAN will rule the world for 6000 years and then GOD will rule the world for the 7th thousand years. 

It makes sense. It is LOGICAL. There must be a REASON why Satan loses his throne at that point in time. Add to that the truth that we are very very close to the  end of 6000 years according to people that study it. Do YOU have reason why THEN: at the 7th trumpet? 

Don’t you agree my interpretation to be much more sound and LOGICAL?   NOT! We have to go by what is written. John put 12:6 right after chapter 11! I did not do it. 

7th seal.....at the abomination....makes sense  My friend, it is not what makes sense, it is what the TEXT SAYS! Dan; 9 tells of an event that will divide the week and called it an abomination. In chapters 11 to 13 we see PROVE of a division in half: 5 of them! The abomination MUST be in one of those 3 chapters. But we can know from 12:6 that it MUST be just before that verse. 

7th trumpet......end of the Beast 42 month rule....  In other words, John did not know what He was doing, putting the Beast's 42 month Start of the countdown in chapter 13. Or, you know better than John.  Right! You are using human reasoning and putting it OVER what is written.  Of course, you are SPOCK. Sorry, I will go with what is written!

[Retrobyter]

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No, sorry, no flat tire. I know the Revelation road better than you do. You just don't believe that - yet. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

It's okay; it's only flat on the bottom.

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, The Light said:

Right. You quit every single time I produce scripture that proves you are wrong. Please explain, if that isn't the Great Tribulation being talked about in Rev 6:11 WHAT IS IT ?

Rev 6

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Secondly we have confirmation that it is the Great Tribulation in Rev 7, all of which I have posted before. And of course YOU HAVE FAILED TO ADDRESS, beyond cutting and running. Here we see that the conclusion of the what was talked about in Rev 6:11

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then I showed you how the wrath of God is over at the 6th seal, unless you can explain that Christ has not returned yet when the kingdoms of the world are the kingdoms of our Lord.

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Then we have confirmation in Rev 10, unless you can explain why when the mystery of God is finished, AND IT'S REALLY NOT.

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Then we have another view of the Great Tribulaiton In Rev 14

Rev 14

¹³ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Then we have another view of the coming Jesus in Rev 14, which is the same coming that we see in Rev 6, right before great multitude and the beginning of the wrath of God when the 7th seal is opened

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So how many wraths of God are there? I think one.

But I've already posted these scriptural proofs that the great tribulation is in the seals and we get another view in Rev 14.

So are you going to use scripture to disprove WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS or are you going to cut and run as always without addressing these scriptures?

 

 

Right. You quit every single time I produce scripture that proves you are wrong. Please explain, if that isn't the Great Tribulation being talked about in Rev 6:11 WHAT IS IT ?  Ha! You said that backwards! I produce scripture that proves YOU wrong, so you just say no, it doesn't mean that....like the duck's back. 

if that isn't the Great Tribulation being talked about in Rev 6:11 WHAT IS IT ?   It is the martyrs of the church age. If it really were 7th seek or GT martyrs (not shown until chapter 15) they would KNOW that judgment had already started and would finish at the end of 7 years. The truth is, they had NO IDEA how long it would be before judgment. I am expecting the duck's back here. 

OK. I will quit now and see how you answer.  We will go one question at a time. 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

It's okay; it's only flat on the bottom.

Ha!  ;-) The problem is, that is the side that hits the road!

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
 

This is in the SPIRIT, not in the flesh. Did you not read?

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

A bald man before salvation is still bald after, He is just happier. All things ARE new in the spirit, but not in the flesh. We are born again in our SPIRIT, not in our flesh. Our body does not get born again. Note, Paul end 28 with IN CHRIST JESUS. We are IN CHRIST in our spirit, not in our flesh.

IN other words, a Jew who gets born again, is still a JEW - still has a Jewish mother. But IN THE SPIRIT He is made ONE in Christ. 

In other words, a Gentile gets born again, but is still a GENTILE  - no Jewish mother. But IN THE SPIRIT He is made ONE in Christ. 

This is why Paul could write this but STILL write of Gentile churches. 

Edited August 17, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Spock said:

Do you plan on being here to watch the Temple going up? 

That all depends on when it goes up versus the time of the rapture. 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

PLEASE KNOW this I GET A LITTLE CARRIED AWAY alot of the time and though in a response to you, not necessarily about your reply.  I hope that makes sense.  The Scriptures aren't given  for you but those who may be perusing who may not want to go search them out.  


Yes, when the Lord returns his foot will touch down.  He is coming back as Lord of lord and King of kings for that day of vengeance.  Just like it is written in Isaiah 

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Where He read from is very telling of "pre trib events"  

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

WHAT HE DIDN'T READ, BUT WHAT IS WRITTEN

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

 

WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN IN ISAIAH??? 

ANY DAY OR MOMENT OR COMING OR RETURN OR APPEARANCE OR HINT OR WINK OR NOD  AS TO 
A PRE TRIBULATION ANYTHING. 

EVEN WHEN CHRIST SPOKE AFTER STOPPING MID SENTENCE IN ISAIAH, LEAVING OFF BEFORE "THE DAY OF VENGEANCE" 

HE DID NOT HINT OR MAKE ANY SUGGESTION OF A GATHERING OR ASSEMBLING OF A BILLION SOULS AND FLYING THEM OFF TO HEAVEN BEFORE THAT DAY OF VENGEANCE,

 LET ALONE MAKE ANY MENTION OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON EARTH AT THAT TIME AND THERE AFTER.  THE VASTNESS OF MISSING INFORMATION ALONE SHOULD OPEN ONES EYES.  

WHAT IS WRITTEN IN ISAIAH?  

to comfort all that mourn;

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,
to give unto them beauty for ashes,
the oil of joy for mourning,
the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
that they might be called trees of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Yes, all those who have died are in that heavenly nation right now.  I would imagine (yes, just an opinion) that they will be part of the armies that fight the war against Satan.

  
Christ rose and we saw all that rose "with him"  after he went and preached to those who had died "under the law" and had accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour, God is just.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Proving to us that we don't stay in a hole in the ground.


This further
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

How many do you imagine don't understand the word "order" therefore use it as "succession" as opposed to "placement"
( not having gone to check out something so very important to truth.   A sad commentary on Christians today because they use that misunderstanding to JUSTIFY making so many other verses void)  

5001  tagma

that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank

an ordered arrangement, reflecting Gods's perfect wisdom in ordering all of creation

extends to the principle of God's ordering to its natural results
 

 and he told the thief

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

"today" you will  be.  Not later on down the road when I return, but today.  



And what did Paul say 

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


          Yes, God so proves he is the God of the living and not the dead




and that that heavenly nation, those who have died before us, will return with Christ


1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

A question I have is

IF the above were pre trib,
then WHERE are the verses that describe what happens with those who did not rapture theory away?
When He returns as Lord of lord and King of kings there will be those who have overcome and endured to the end and those who have failed miserably. 

What happen to them? OR DO WE JUST USE THIS SAME VERSE AGAIN?  OR is there a different order.  will there be anyone else to resurrect?  would that be a "third resurrection"?  what effect will the second death have on them?  

 WHICH IS AFTER SATAN IS REVEALED

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9  even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 

again here,

I have had people try and take that "even him"  (that  I  just reduce  myself for clarity FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW) 
to make this mean something different

never going to check out that it was never in the original manuscripts, it was added by man. 
They don't even know that all those things added by man are in a different font in the Word.  Shoot many of them don't know that all the different ways God is rendered has a different meaning.

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I'm not going to get deep into any particular matter, but I wanted to remind you that chapter and verse divisions are man-made, fictitious, and arbitrary. With the intrusion of a verse number and perhaps a carriage return, two things that go together might LOOK like they're separate when they're actually not.

A case in point in your post above is 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (which you ended at verse 24): The subject of 1 Corinthians 15 is resurrection. These verses are pointing to THREE momentous Resurrections such that the last one of the three could easily be missed.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The first of the three is the Resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah, who ALONE is the firstfruits of the everlasting Resurrection. (Those who were resurrected with His death, and came out of the tombs after His resurrection, were of the caliber of resurrection found in the Tanakh (the Old Testament)

The second of the three resurrections will occur at the Second Coming of Yeshua` for those who belong to Him.

The THIRD of the three resurrections will occur at the end of the Millennium - the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign - when the Messiah of God, the King of kings, shall have put down all rule and all authority and power, including death itself, and then He shall deliver His worldwide Kingdom to God His Father. This will be the resurrection that is primarily for the unjust as they will be resurrected, judged, and consigned to the Lake of Fire.

Hope this helps you.

 

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

You imagine no chronology: yet John numbers events one group after another for the proper ORDER. 7 seals, 7 trumpet, 7 vials; 3 woes tied to the last 3 trumpets. This is SEQUENCE. Then he used the word AFTER 11 times in Revelation: yet after all this some people imagine it is not Chronological - and without any proof. 

Common sense tells us it is written IN AN ORDER. If someone challenges that order, then they must have PROOF. 

 

Brother O brother,

Hey, its been a while.

I challenged the "chronological" order of Revelation back in Nov 2019.

You are so absolutely positive that Rev is chronological that you never even responded. It should be quite easy for someone who is that convinced and that positive about the order Rev is written in, that a refute should be easy.  Did you not have anything to refute? 

Common sense tells us it is written IN AN ORDER..... 

Who is the "US".....certainly not very many that I know. Perhaps this "common sense" isn't as common as you think it is!

[abcdef]

42 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Brother O brother,

Hey, its been a while.

I challenged the "chronological" order of Revelation back in Nov 2019.

You are so absolutely positive that Rev is chronological that you never even responded. It should be quite easy for someone who is that convinced and that positive about the order Rev is written in, that a refute should be easy.  Did you not have anything to refute? 

Common sense tells us it is written IN AN ORDER..... 

Who is the "US".....certainly not very many that I know. Perhaps this "common sense" isn't as common as you think it is!

Hey JoeCanada,

Even pretribs admit that there are breaks or pauses in the narrative.

These breaks/pauses in the time lines prove that much of the Revelation is not consecutive.

This is because each "pause" has it's own separate time line. The 2 witnesses (2W's) or the woman of Rev 12 for examples.

The events shown or symbolized in separate time lines, cause the assumption that the Revelation is always consecutive, to be questionable.