Tongues?

[Paul James]

2 hours ago, Waggles said:

You keep speculating and making false claims about my prayer life.

In the end Jesus wants for us all to be able to pray in tongues - a wonderful spiritual language that speaks directly to God with power.

The problem for cessationists is that they build their doctrine on 1 Corinthians 13:10 and define "perfect" as the perfect canon of Holy Scripture.  That phrase is the only mention in the whole of the New Testament of the spiritual gifts ceasing, yet most reliable commentators interpret the verse as referring to the time when this imperfect world will pass away and the perfect New Jerusalem will appear.  There is nothing in this world that is perfect because it is all blighted by sin.  Even the canon of Scripture is not perfect, because it is a part of this imperfect world.  This is not to say that the Word of God is not perfect, because the Scripture says that it is. But the written Scriptures contain everything that God has said to us, either for our education or for our direct instruction.  But John says that the true Word of God is Christ Himself, and when He comes again, He will bring perfection with Him, but not until then.

The problem is that cessationists don't want to acknowledge the modern use of the gift of tongues, because it is the ultimate in faith - to pray to a God we can't see in a language we have never learned.   It doesn't go along with religious reasoning, and therefore, those with the religious spirit reject it, and use just one phrase of Scripture to try and prove it.

[Waggles]

1Cor 13:8  Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall be done away. 
9  For we know in part, and prophesy in part; 
10  but when the perfect is come, what is in part shall be done away. 
11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, thought as a child, reasoned as a child: when I became a man, I put away the things of the child. 
12  For now we see by a mirror darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

1John 3:1  Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and we are. For this cause the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 
2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet manifested what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. 

[Paul James]

5 hours ago, Waggles said:

1Cor 13:8  Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall be done away. 
9  For we know in part, and prophesy in part; 
10  but when the perfect is come, what is in part shall be done away. 
11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, thought as a child, reasoned as a child: when I became a man, I put away the things of the child. 
12  For now we see by a mirror darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

1John 3:1  Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and we are. For this cause the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 
2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet manifested what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. 

Quoting 1 Corinthians 13:10 in context, verse 8 through verse 12, we get the true sense of what Paul is saying.  Verses 8, 9, 11, and 12 speak about our state after we have left this world and we are having face to face fellowship with Christ.  Yet cessationists extract verse 10 and make it say something totally different that has nothing to do with the context.

If we are saying that the perfect which is to come is the completed canon of New Testament Scripture, then we need to go right back and analyse the whole passage on that basis.

Verse 8 says that tongues, prophecy and knowledge shall cease and vanish away.  But it doesn't say when in that verse.

Verse 9 says we currently have partial knowledge and give partial prophecy.  The inference is that because we now have the completed canon of Scripture, we have full and total knowledge about everything.

Verse 11 says that we were once children, but when we grew up we put away childish things.  If the canon of Scripture is the perfect, then we are now fully grown up mature Christian believers.

Verse 12 says that now we have the canon of Scripture, we no longer see the things of God as in an imperfect mirror (the type of polished metal that existed in Paul's time), but we see Christ face to face and know Him as He knows us.

So, on the basis of this, how does a cessationist who makes 1 Corinthians 13:10 the basis of his doctrine?  For him all tongues, prophecy and knowledge has passed away.  Therefore he never prays in tongues, never prophesies, and has no knowledge.  And yet, he is saying at the same time that he no longer as partial knowledge, but full knowledge about everything to do with the things of God.  One has to wonder how a person who believes that knowledge no longer exists, yet views himself as having full and total knowledge.  He also views himself as a totally complete, fully formed, mature person, and having total knowledge along with it, doesn't need to be taught anything further concerning the things of God.  In other words, he sees himself as above teaching, because he knows everything now.  He is also in a position where his fellowship with Christ is now face to face and he now knows Christ as Christ knows him.  In essence then, the cessationist is the super Christian who stands head and shoulders over everyone else in the common herd.

Do you think there is something wrong with this picture?

[Waggles]

30 minutes ago, Paul James said:

Do you think there is something wrong with this picture?

Pride I am thinking leads to self delusion.

[enoob57]

16 hours ago, Waggles said:

You keep speculating and making false claims about my prayer life.

In the end Jesus wants for us all to be able to pray in tongues - a wonderful spiritual language that speaks directly to God with power.

I haven't made any claims except toward that of tongues and Scripture... I realize this is personal to you as you practice such but I am not addressing you personally but toward the topic... if you can divorce your emotions from this you can clearly see I mean no one any harm just wish to discuss tongues in Biblical concepts...

[enoob57]

7 hours ago, Paul James said:

Quoting 1 Corinthians 13:10 in context, verse 8 through verse 12, we get the true sense of what Paul is saying.  Verses 8, 9, 11, and 12 speak about our state after we have left this world and we are having face to face fellowship with Christ.  Yet cessationists extract verse 10 and make it say something totally different that has nothing to do with the context.

If we are saying that the perfect which is to come is the completed canon of New Testament Scripture, then we need to go right back and analyse the whole passage on that basis.

Verse 8 says that tongues, prophecy and knowledge shall cease and vanish away.  But it doesn't say when in that verse.

Verse 9 says we currently have partial knowledge and give partial prophecy.  The inference is that because we now have the completed canon of Scripture, we have full and total knowledge about everything.

Verse 11 says that we were once children, but when we grew up we put away childish things.  If the canon of Scripture is the perfect, then we are now fully grown up mature Christian believers.

Verse 12 says that now we have the canon of Scripture, we no longer see the things of God as in an imperfect mirror (the type of polished metal that existed in Paul's time), but we see Christ face to face and know Him as He knows us.

So, on the basis of this, how does a cessationist who makes 1 Corinthians 13:10 the basis of his doctrine?  For him all tongues, prophecy and knowledge has passed away.  Therefore he never prays in tongues, never prophesies, and has no knowledge.  And yet, he is saying at the same time that he no longer as partial knowledge, but full knowledge about everything to do with the things of God.  One has to wonder how a person who believes that knowledge no longer exists, yet views himself as having full and total knowledge.  He also views himself as a totally complete, fully formed, mature person, and having total knowledge along with it, doesn't need to be taught anything further concerning the things of God.  In other words, he sees himself as above teaching, because he knows everything now.  He is also in a position where his fellowship with Christ is now face to face and he now knows Christ as Christ knows him.  In essence then, the cessationist is the super Christian who stands head and shoulders over everyone else in the common herd.

Do you think there is something wrong with this picture?

Paul not all cessationist claim this BUT I do affirm that these things pass away when the perfect is come and the Bible does claim ability to make perfect
 

2 Tim 3:15-17

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

The time of cessation of knowledge the Bible tells us
 

Rev 21:1-5
 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
KJV


I have no problem with tongues when used as The Bible dictates- nor would any Christian... but the persuasive movement is in error and I must speak against it...

[kwikphilly]

On 10/28/2021 at 6:40 AM, enoob57 said:

That is your privilege in personal time with God... I don't need to verify the tongues movement as I have stated the basic elements of it which gives me pause ... even the history of is dubious... I like the Apostle Paul desire to know God Through His Word and understanding thereof - which is the push of 1Cor 14 in total... 

Blessings Dear Brother...

       Boy oh boy everyone is jumping on you for what I think might be misunderstanding.......???

      Having come from a WONDERFUL Pentecostal congregation with all the "Gifts" flowing freely(& then others with some "gibberish" from time to time-lol) I completely understand both sides of the table here.... I ,like you ,have to question whether or not it is not sky high emotion,mass hysteria,power of suggestion or even "possession" and must (at all times) try the spirits......are we not all required to do so?

      I sure miss my old "church" ,Nooby- I witnessed many a Deliverance ,so many Healed of various illnesses,diseases etc...and then when that all came to an end I was very lost for a time,not lost in my Faith but lost as in a little member in search of the other part of the Lords Body......I learned a lot & the funny thing is that I learned exactly what you've been saying here,post after post......I had to learn to simply KNOW what I KNOW without "feeling" what I was so used to feeling-oh,to "feel" the Spirit of God Move like a Mighty Rushing Wing is AMAZING and I would like to find a place like that again one day but if I don't  then that is okay too

    I think in my own Personal walk with God He Has Shown me many different things,when I needed to be helped along & guided by the Counselor in the way I could Understand at that time then that is where I was (for a time) and as I grew more & more mature and grounded I no longer needed that then much more was required of me.For a time I even experienced much "Silence" which was a great period of growth as well and I Believe it was only when I was ready to not "Hear" in the way I was used to but strong enough to where I can always sttand on His Word & KNOW He Hears & Find my answers in His Word......& be Still and Wait etc...etc...

    I think I might be rambling but I do know you get where I'm coming from,I'm not sure if anyone else will understand my words......Moral of my story is I do Believe that as long as the Born Again Child of God seeks Him with all your heart,He Will take you where you need to be when & where you need.......some may need works & wonders etc...others do not   Glory to God Most High,Praise Jesus!

                                            With love,your Sis(chocolate)

,

 

[other one]

On 10/26/2021 at 3:26 AM, R. Hartono said:

God is also using Xenolalia for individual rebuke and guidance during the church service. As the purpose is to guide the whole members.

so you can use that to speak in several languages at once?   I'm really not that familiar with the term.

[Paul James]

On 10/28/2021 at 11:24 PM, enoob57 said:

No I am speaking of the 'IS' of the matter and you of the feelings and intuitions and this experience is your foundation but God says it is to be His Word...

The issue is that God has not said at any time that tongues and prophecy will cease before the second coming of Christ.  Cessationist doctrine is not Bible-based at all.  It is a man-made doctrine based on the definition of a single word in 1 Corinthians 13:10, and to hide the fact that the church lost the gifts through apostacy and paganism, and because much of the modern church is riddled with it still, along with heresy in some ultra-Charismatic groups, it is no wonder that good people turn away from what they see as falsehood in these heresy-riddled groups.

[Buddy D. Mouse]

In college (many moons ago) I was a regular at THE SIGN OF THE FISH COFFEEHOUSE. The Director was Cessationist - at least 3 of us were charismatic.

Before the Prayer Meeting, the Director was showing everyone his LEATHER BIBLE COVER  - it was a grand thing, with three little belt-buckle thingies to keep it closed -- we all ooohed and ahhhed over it.

The policy of the coffeehouse was that we would not push Baptism of the Holy Spirit/Tongues. The few charismatics among us had already given our word to abide by that, but that wasn't enough for the Director. He wanted us to admit that THE PERFECT had come, that Tongues had CEASED, etc.

SO I was targeted by the Director in another one of the "Prefect has come" lectures - looking right at me he said "and what was it that came and caused Tongues and Prophecy to cease?"  "THIS !!!!" he said - shoving his bible in my face...

 

Rick, one of the other charismatices - immediately quipped 

"What ? Your Leather Bible Cover?"

Rick, me and one other charismatic somehow made it upstairs to a sunday school room and just fell about the place laughing.

We laughed til tears rolled down our cheeks and splashed onto our shirts.

We were struggling to quit laughing - people would be coming in soon - we would welcome them and witness.

We tried to straighten up - then someone would say "The Perfect!" 

or 

"LEATHER BIBLE COVER" and we would go down again.

It was the hardest I ever laughed in my life.