When is the rapture?

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

We are told to watch and be ready. If we can escape all the things that will come to pass, what are we supposed to be watching for?

We will know the times and seasons.

Yes, but you can not identify the time. The 10 virgins didn't know. But all waited. Five went in and five were left behind.

The times and seasons of 2020, 2021, on and on.

The Rapture is a meeting in the air.

Many believers in Christ have already missed this future time by death. They watched and waited. They were rewarded.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes, but you can not identify the time. The 10 virgins didn't know. But all waited. Five went in and five were left behind.

The times and seasons of 2020, 2021, on and on.

The Rapture is a meeting in the air.

Many believers in Christ have already missed this future time by death. They watched and waited. They were rewarded.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Best be ready, or deal with the machete. 

[Moby]

21 hours ago, The Light said:

Without even reading further, I know you cannot prove this.

You will not be able to prove there is only one rapture and are you afraid of the OT?

These passages in Matthew, Mark and Luke are referring to these passages in Revelation 6.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Then of course we see the great multitude in Rev 7

Rev 7

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

We also get a confirmation of those that come out of the great tribulation. So far, you have proved nothing.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

 

Jesus will return and every eye will see Him. That does not prove that He will not return in secret.

Exactly, THE LORD HIMSELF will descend from heaven. But what happens at the coming of Jesus in Matt 24. He will send His angels.

Matt 24

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Right, in the clouds. But there is no evidence that this is the only coming prior to wrath.

Please produce any evidence that Jesus is ONLY COMING ONCE. You can't do it. However, I can produce plenty of evidence that He is coming more than once. I have already showed you that when He comes it will be like the days of Noah. Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood. We also know that when He comes, it will be like the days of Lot, where the very day lot left Sodom destruction came. Look the meaning of LIKEWISE ALSO. Then tell me He is not coming more than once.

Luke 17

²⁶ And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

²⁷ They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

²⁸ Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

²⁹ But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 

I also showed you where Jesus will come as lightning more than one day.

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Please show me specifically where it shows that this event occurs after the tribulation. Can not the dead in Christ arise at His coming before the tribulation? Jesus comes at the trump of God in the pretribulation rapture. He comes at the last trump after the tribulation. Two different comings.

Totally bad logic. The fact that every eye will see Him during the coming of Rev 6, which is the coming of Matt 24, which is also the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 does not prove that He will not come at a different time. In fact if you read Matt 24, He tells EXACTLY when He will come. He will come after the beginning of sorrows, and after the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars and immediately after the tribulation. He pinpoints His coming, and yet He tells you that He will come in an hour that you think not. Just let that sink in. There will be a pretribulation rapture and it will be a secret rapture. He will come when you think not.

Matt 24

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

You have produced no evidence that He is coming only once before wrath. I have produced evidence that He will return more than once. One time at the trump of God He will come in secret. LIKEWISE ALSO, One time at the last trump, every eye will see the coming of the Lord.

The scripture speaks for itself.

Sorry but there is NO pretrib rapture as Rob uses more scripture to prove:

John was in exile on the Isle of Patmos around 96 AD when he was caught up to the throne to write down what must come to pass hereafter:

Revelation 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

He recorded the next resurrection from 96 AD as the “first resurrection” to take place in the future:

Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This “first resurrection” includes those who worshiped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand for they are blessed and holy.

We know the mark of the beast takes place during the the last half of the tribulation so this “first resurrection” must take place after the beast has established the mark:

Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; (17) and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Moby

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Moby said:

Sorry but there is NO pretrib rapture as Rob uses more scripture to prove:

Nothing to be sorry about as Rob does not prove that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. What Rob proves is that there will be a pre wrath rapture. However, he don't understand who will be raptured. It will be the 12 tribes across the earth that will be raptured prewrath and the 144,000 first fruits prove this harvest. The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5.

8 hours ago, Moby said:

John was in exile on the Isle of Patmos around 96 AD when he was caught up to the throne to write down what must come to pass hereafter:

Revelation 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

He recorded the next resurrection from 96 AD as the “first resurrection” to take place in the future:

Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This “first resurrection” includes those who worshiped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand for they are blessed and holy.

We know the mark of the beast takes place during the the last half of the tribulation so this “first resurrection” must take place after the beast has established the mark:

Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; (17) and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

The Church is raptured to heaven after the dead in Christ rise. This happens before any seals are opened. You see one harvest. The Word constantly tells us that there is more than one harvest of the righteous.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

There is more than one harvest. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, blindness in part will be removed from Israel. They will be raptured in the pre wrath rapture.

You have produced not one single verse that shows that there will not be a pretribulation rapture.

How is it that we are told that we can escape all these things that will come to pass? Is that just meaningless chatter or is it the Word of God?

Also, I'll ask you again. What church or organization teaches the "corporate manchild"?

[rf52]

It's too late for a pre-trib rapture.  See the linked PDF:  Corona

Edited September 1, 2020 by rf52

[Moby]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Nothing to be sorry about as Rob does not prove that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. What Rob proves is that there will be a pre wrath rapture. However, he don't understand who will be raptured. It will be the 12 tribes across the earth that will be raptured prewrath and the 144,000 first fruits prove this harvest. The Church is already in heaven in Rev 5.

The Church is raptured to heaven after the dead in Christ rise. This happens before any seals are opened. You see one harvest. The Word constantly tells us that there is more than one harvest of the righteous.

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

There is more than one harvest. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, blindness in part will be removed from Israel. They will be raptured in the pre wrath rapture.

You have produced not one single verse that shows that there will not be a pretribulation rapture.

How is it that we are told that we can escape all these things that will come to pass? Is that just meaningless chatter or is it the Word of God?

Also, I'll ask you again. What church or organization teaches the "corporate manchild"?

What part of "election of grace" and the "ONE" olive tree is so hard to understand???

There is a remnant according to the election of grace that will be the only branches left on the ONE olive tree when it is completed consisting of both Jew and Gentile branches:

Romans 11:1-6  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

This grace is from God and bestowed upon His church consisting of both Jew and Gentile branches:

1 Corinthians 15:9-11  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.  (10)  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.  (11)  Whether then it be I(Paul) or they(other Jewish apostles), so we preach, and so ye(predominately Gentile church at Corinth) believed.

Father clearly spares a remnant elect of Israel who He extends His grace to when they were alive on earth during each generation but hardens the rest:

Romans 11:7-8  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:  (8)  according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.

Paul taught both Gentiles and Jews hoping his fellow Israelites would come to Christ even if it was through jealousy:

Romans 11:13-15  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.  (15)  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Through the first 15 verses of Romans chapter 11, Paul clearly proves that all the Jews from Abraham onward till the end of the tribulation were already branches on the ONE olive tree! The only way they were or will be broken off is unbelief during each of their lifetimes on earth individually:

Romans 11:16-22  And if the firstfruit(Jesus) is holy, so is the lump(believing Jews and Gentiles): and if the root(Jesus) is holy, so are the branches(believing Jews and Gentiles).  (17)  But if some of the branches were broken off(unbelieving Jews), and thou, being a wild olive(believing Gentiles), wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness(Jesus) of the olive tree;  (18)  glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root(Jesus) thee.  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. (20)  Well; by their(unbelieving Jews) unbelief they were broken off, and thou(believing Gentiles) standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:  (21)  for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.  (22)  Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Jesus is the root and the firstfruit who was resurrected up into heaven and now sits at the right hand of our Father until He comes in the clouds once for His ONE olive tree:

1 Corinthians 15:20-24  But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruit of them that are asleep.  (21)  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  (22)  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.  (23)  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruit(30AD resurrection of Christ); then they(the ONE olive tree) that are Christ's, at his coming.  (24)  Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

It is very obvious that verse 23 is clearly telling us that Christ was resurrected and then there is only ONE time He is coming for His which both Jew and Gentile believers who are Abraham's seed through Christ:

Galatians 3:26-29  For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.  (27)  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.  (28)  There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.  (29)  And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and the firstfruit of them that are asleep!!! He ascended up into a cloud as the Jewish apostles watched and were told by two angels that He would come back in the clouds for the believing Jews along with the believing Gentiles for they are also of the seed of Abraham from the uttermost part of the earth:

Acts 1:8-11  But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.  (9)  And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  (10)  And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold two men stood by them in white apparel;  (11)  who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

We as Gentiles must first become a believer before we are grafted into that ONE olive tree whereas the physical Jew has to first be born and then reject Christ in unbelief in order to be broken off the ONE olive tree! If at some point in the life of a physical Jew, he or she repents and becomes a believer they can be grafted back into THEIR ONE olive tree:

Romans 11:23-24  And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.  (24)  For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Please remember that ALL the Jewish branches were always on the ONE olive tree so Paul is clearly proving that part of Israel was hardened and their branches broken off in every generation until all the Gentiles believers are grafted in:

Romans 11:25-27  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:  (27)  And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

This ONE olive tree is called "ALL Israel" and consists of every Jewish believer who was not broken off and every Gentile believer who was grafted into that ONE olive tree who our Father showed mercy to in His election of grace:

Romans 11:28-32  As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.  (29)  For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.  (30)  For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,  (31)  even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.  (32)  For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

Father is not going to send His Son to gather part of His ONE olive tree before the tribulation and the rest after the tribulation because ALL the ELECT are gathered as ONE holy ELECT race, nation, and people:

1 Peter 2:9  But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

[Diaste]

On 8/28/2020 at 1:22 PM, The Light said:

You have produced not one single verse that shows that there will not be a pretribulation rapture.

I think it's pretty amazing that you see with such clarity. We really do see much of eschatology the same way. I mean, except you default to the pre-trib thing even after all you know.

My thought here is how would one go about proving a 'will not be'? 

"Unicorns exist because it can't be proven they do not exist." is false. 

"There is a pretrib rapture because it can't be proven there isn't one." is also false. It's negative evidence.

 "It can't be there isn't." Is proof of nothing.

[Dennis1209]

On 8/22/2020 at 6:58 AM, Last Daze said:

The rapture takes place on the last day when the trumpet of God sounds.  Believers are raised immortal and Israel is saved in that day.  It really is that simple.

If it's really that simple, why are there so many bright scholars and godly men with different interpretations? But with the diversity of hermeneutics, our Salvation status doesn't change, and we're still brothers & sisters in Christ, we should agree to disagree in brotherly love and learn from one another. 

My thoughts are; since Jesus's resurrection, the Rapture could have and can occur at any time, there are no preconditions; that's where scholars came up with the term "the doctrine of imminency". 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [emphasis added]

Scripture indicates Paul thought the Rapture may occur during his lifetime by the pronoun "we" [us, we, ourselves]. 

[Moby]

5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

If it's really that simple, why are there so many bright scholars and godly men with different interpretations? But with the diversity of hermeneutics, our Salvation status doesn't change, and we're still brothers & sisters in Christ, we should agree to disagree in brotherly love and learn from one another. 

My thoughts are; since Jesus's resurrection, the Rapture could have and can occur at any time, there are no preconditions; that's where scholars came up with the term "the doctrine of immanency". 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [emphasis added]

Scripture indicates Paul thought the Rapture may occur during his lifetime by the pronoun "we" [us, we, ourselves]. 

Please remember that God allowed a lot of false prophets to take over the teaching of His people in Israel for many years before He would send in one and maybe two with the unleavened truth and they often killed them:

Luke 11:47-52  Woe unto you! for ye build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.  (48)  So ye are witnesses and consent unto the works of your fathers: for they killed them, and ye build their tombs.  (49)  Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute;  (50)  that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;  (51)  from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation.  (52)  Woe unto you lawyers! for ye took away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Both Jesus and Paul prophesied that this same behavior will continue and ramp up in "the hour that cometh":

1 Thessalonians 2:14-15  For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;  (15)  who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and please not God, and are contrary to all men;

John 16:1-3  These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble.  (2)  They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.  (3)  And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Paul wrote Thessalonians around 60 AD which is a full 30 years after John was given the many clues in Revelations that when studied with the major prophets of the OT and NT make it very clear that the "first resurrection" from 96AD can not take place until after the mark as Rob proves in this link and I pasted below:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

John was in exile on the Isle of Patmos around 96 AD when he was caught up to the throne to write down what must come to pass hereafter:

Revelation 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

He recorded the next resurrection from 96 AD as the “first resurrection” to take place in the future:

Revelation 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5) The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This “first resurrection” includes those who worshiped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand for they are blessed and holy.

We know the mark of the beast takes place during the the last half of the tribulation so this “first resurrection” must take place after the beast has established the mark:

Revelation 13:16-17 And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; (17) and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

[Last Daze]

22 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

If it's really that simple, why are there so many bright scholars and godly men with different interpretations?

Bias toward a preference.