Why can’t the CHURCH be in part of the 70th week?

[Biblican]

Good insight. Those who are preoccupied with the things of this life, obviously won't be praying to be made worthy to escape. Those who pray are in essence like Noah, preparing their ark, their relationship with the Lord, that will carry them above the storm waters that are coming. I just read this quote from somewhere a couple of days ago, "The same waters that drowned the wicked, carried Noah to safety."

[Spock]

22 hours ago, Biblican said:

Of course there will be Christians in that last week. After the rapture there will be many Christians left behind as only the Philadelphians are promised to be kept from the hour (Rev. 3:10).  The five remaining spiritual conditions that have errors  will not be gathered when the Lord calls them up, unless those errors are corrected. That's one reason why Jesus said we are to pray that we are worthy to escape. Those who have been left behind and survive will be gathered just before the Lord returns after the tribulation (Matthew 24:2931). This is the event that Paul describes in I Thessalonians 4:16 when the dead in Christ rise first. Many Christians confuse this event with the pre-trib rapture.

So you believe in a PARTIAL rapture....I can see why you believe that because there seems to be enough Biblical evidence to support such thinking. However, how do you explain this?  
 

51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 

Notice the word “all.” 
 

15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,^d that WE WHO ARE ALIVE, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Notice it says “we who are alive” Not only “ those who are on fire for the Lord” will be raptured. 
 

In addition, do all the dead in Christ get resurrected bodies at this time too.....even the lukewarm believers who were not exactly on fire for the lord during their lifetime?  Are they (lukewarm) treated equally with the other dead in Christ believers? 
 

just curious, looking forward to reading your rebuttal.  Oh, please it is not necessary that you give me verses that support a partial rapture, because I am aware of them. I was tempted to believe in such theory but I need these explanations or answers.  I really am just looking for explanations to these two huge rapture passages. Thanks. 

spock 

[JohnR7]

On 9/2/2020 at 11:13 PM, Spock said:

where does it say in the Word that the Church can’t also be involved in even a  part of this 490 years?

According to the teaching all but 7 of those 490 years took place before Jesus was born into the world. There are two words: "Wrath" & "Restraint". The teaching is that the Holy Spirit is restraining the world to keep it from destroying itself. Some believe that the Church is being used by the Holy Spirit to restrain the evil forces of destruction. In the Hope that all come to repentance: "God is not willing that any should perish" (2Peter 3:9) So the teaching is in order for God to judge the world the Church has to be removed from the world in the same way Lot was removed from his city so that God could destroy the city. 

[Spock]

3 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

According to the teaching all but 7 of those 490 years took place before Jesus was born into the world. There are two words: "Wrath" & "Restraint". The teaching is that the Holy Spirit is restraining the world to keep it from destroying itself. Some believe that the Church is being used by the Holy Spirit to restrain the evil forces of destruction. In the Hope that all come to repentance: "God is not willing that any should perish" (2Peter 3:9) So the teaching is in order for God to judge the world the Church has to be removed from the world in the same way Lot was removed from his city so that God could destroy the city. 

Makes sense.....especially if you believe God has ordained a 7 year tribulation.  I read and read the book of Revelation over and over again and all I can see is 3.5 years of tribulation. 
 

oh, and one more thing to ponder....why did Jesus say, “when you see the abomination of desolation....flee....” 

Are you 100% sure Jesus was only talking to Jews because his church is gone before then?  I myself am not 100% convinced about this and 100 other things....the only thing in my mind I am convinced about is we are not here to experience God’s wrath....begins at 7th seal, imo, not the 1st seal. 
 

I wonder if the 30 minutes silence in heaven when the 7th seal is released is because you have the abomination of desolation and the rapture happening pretty much simultaneously?  I wonder.....

 

pS Having said all of that, I still am rooting for pre 70th week rapture  to be correct, but I’m always looking, waiting, and ready to serve Him in any way He allows.... in other words, I won’t be shocked or alarmed if I see a temple going up in Israel, I see two witnesses preaching, and I see some covenant being confirmed.  My trust is in God, not in my thinking of what end times rapture doctrine I believe in. 

[JohnR7]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

oh, and one more thing to ponder....why did Jesus say, “when you see the abomination of desolation....flee....” 

The story is that they are ready to rebuild the temple as soon as they get control over the temple mount. They would not have to rebuild the temple. They can set up a tent and be doing the animal sacrifices within 24 hours. The story people tell is that the trib begins when they take control of the temple mount and begin to build the temple.  They say that this will take them 3.5 years. Then the sacrifices are cut off and the second 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation period begins. Then we are told that Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years to stop the destruction of the Jerusalem. The east and west, north and south are split at the same time and a great valley is formed. When His feet touch the ground. A study of plate tectonics shows that the fault lines are at the mount of olives so it looks like this is what is going to happen. (Zechariah 14:4)

[JohnR7]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

Makes sense.....especially if you believe God has ordained a 7 year tribulation.  I read and read the book of Revelation over and over again and all I can see is 3.5 years of tribulation. 

Better to study the beginning in Genesis chapter one. God created the world in 7 days and in 7 days the world will be restored. "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isaiah 46:10) I am looking at a very interesting teaching on this right now on YouTube "#1 - Torah Parashah Bereshit - Hidden Prophecies in Creation!" This helps to put everything in perspective. 

[Spock]

4 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Better to study the beginning in Genesis chapter one. God created the world in 7 days and in 7 days the world will be restored. "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isaiah 46:10) I am looking at a very interesting teaching on this right now on YouTube "#1 - Torah Parashah Bereshit - Hidden Prophecies in Creation!" This helps to put everything in perspective. 

Thanks for this.....but if you don’t mind, can you site for me where it says “in 7 days the world will be restored”? 
I can see you are correlating 7 days of restoration with 7 days of tribulation....but I couldn’t find where it says 7 days of restoration in the word. 
 

thanks,

spock

[Spock]

4 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

The story is that they are ready to rebuild the temple as soon as they get control over the temple mount. They would not have to rebuild the temple. They can set up a tent and be doing the animal sacrifices within 24 hours. The story people tell is that the trib begins when they take control of the temple mount and begin to build the temple.  They say that this will take them 3.5 years. Then the sacrifices are cut off and the second 3.5 years of the 7 year tribulation period begins. Then we are told that Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years to stop the destruction of the Jerusalem. The east and west, north and south are split at the same time and a great valley is formed. When His feet touch the ground. A study of plate tectonics shows that the fault lines are at the mount of olives so it looks like this is what is going to happen. (Zechariah 14:4)

I’m glad you called this “the story” because that is what it seems to me to be....a story!  However, I still see a “possibility “ that this story could somehow be reality if, and I emphasize if....if it is true that once the time of the church comes to an end, they get beamed out and THEN God goes back into dealing with Israel for their final week (7 year period).  That is why I started this thread...to see if the Bible says this is to happen.  If you have read this thread in its entirety you will see the evidence is minimal at best.  Most of the hard core pre 70th week personalities on this sight have stayed away, which sort of tells me, maybe even they realize the Bible really doesn’t come out and say such (church has to be gone in the final week).  Although I do agree, it is possible to INFER this can happen. It’s just not black and white as I see it. 
 

I enjoyed discussing this with you John. Stick around, I would like to read more gleanings you are receiving from your Rabbi. (I attended Messianic fellowship for a number of years, and I even call my wife, Rabbi Shar.) 

spock

[JohnR7]

6 minutes ago, Spock said:

Thanks for this.....but if you don’t mind, can you site for me where it says “in 7 days the world will be restored”? 

We see this in Revelation 20:1a "Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away," Bishop Ussher gives us the date of 4004 BC for what he calls the beginning of time. This is when God puts Adam in the Garden of Eden. Paul tells us on the seventh day man will rest from his works. (Hebrews 4) Peter and Moses (Psalm 90:4 2Peter 3:8) tells us that a day with God is 1,000 years.  

 

[luigi]

12 hours ago, Spock said:

Makes sense.....especially if you believe God has ordained a 7 year tribulation.  I read and read the book of Revelation over and over again and all I can see is 3.5 years of tribulation. 
 

oh, and one more thing to ponder....why did Jesus say, “when you see the abomination of desolation....flee....” 

Are you 100% sure Jesus was only talking to Jews because his church is gone before then?  I myself am not 100% convinced about this and 100 other things....the only thing in my mind I am convinced about is we are not here to experience God’s wrath....begins at 7th seal, imo, not the 1st seal. 
 

I wonder if the 30 minutes silence in heaven when the 7th seal is released is because you have the abomination of desolation and the rapture happening pretty much simultaneously?  I wonder.....

 

pS Having said all of that, I still am rooting for pre 70th week rapture  to be correct, but I’m always looking, waiting, and ready to serve Him in any way He allows.... in other words, I won’t be shocked or alarmed if I see a temple going up in Israel, I see two witnesses preaching, and I see some covenant being confirmed.  My trust is in God, not in my thinking of what end times rapture doctrine I believe in. 

Spock, I hope you don't mind my butting in here, but there is a sequencing of events here that will explain a little about how the seven years (week) will go down.

The seventh seal in Revelation 8 in which 1/3 of earth's environmental resources are destroyed is due to the love mankind has for the things his hands produce-Revelation 9:20. Today the things man produces are primarily produced in factories using fossil fuels, and so we realize fossil fuels and affiliated means the cause for 1/3 of earth's environmental resources being destroyed.

It is when this level of destruction to the planet is complete, when an angel in midheaven cries with a loud voice Woe, woe, woe, to all the inhabitants of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet warnings of the three angels which are yet to sound; thereby indicating significantly worse conditions resulting than from the the last three than from the first four from fossil fuel use.

In Revelation 9 the first of these last three woes appears as the result of a fallen star, named Absalon and Apollyon, which translated means the destroyer, is given the key to the bottomless pit and opens it. It is from this bottomless pit, (a.k.a. the sea in Revelation 13) from which the beast shall ascend. When the beast ascends is when he is alloted 42 months in which to do his thing and make things work. During these 42 months, one of the beasts acts is that he kills the two witnesses at the conclusion of their 42 month testimony. As such we can then see that the events in Revelation 8, in which 1/3 of earth's environmental resources are being destroyed by fossil fuel use (and the world will then logically be experiencing tribulation), precede the beast's 42 month reign.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Edited September 11, 2020 by luigi