Daniel 7..... the 10 horns

[iamlamad]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

I would rather think NOT close to Jesus' life on earth, but in our future. 

[iamlamad]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:27 AM, Charlie744 said:

Abcdef & RM - thank you both for your comments!

Ok, I understand Daniel 7, the 4th kingdom will reveal:

1) a beast, 

2) 10 horns (arising out of the top of the beast),

3) a little horn arising after the 10, 

4) 3 horns of the 10 were plucked up,

 

Now, assuming the beast is indeed pagan Rome (please comment if agree or not), then the beast “was” before the crucifixion. 

If the little horn is or has been identified as papal Rome (please comment if agree or not), then he “was” around the end of the 5th century AD. 

If so (two comments above), then the 10 horns must “be” prior to the coming of the little horn. Therefore, all 3 actors “are” before the end of the 5th century AD. Obviously, if the little horn is not interpreted as papal Rome, the time constraint is lifted and they can “arrive” any time after... they could still not “be” at 2020. 

Consequently, we need to identify these two actors by looking into Revelation. As I have mentioned before, I have yet to study Revelation because I was instructed to study Daniel first- and unless I understand Daniel I could not possibly understand or unpack Revelation!

Yet, and unless I am totally not getting it, most have / are looking at Revelation to understand or interpret Daniel. Now I certainly agree they MUST agree or fit together like a hand in a glove, but in my opinion, Daniel should “speak first”. 

Is it a strong possibility that because we (collectively) can not identify the 10 horns “being” around the 5th century AD, we must allow Revelation to “speak” to both the identity AND the time of these two actors?

One of my concerns is (assuming papal Rome is NOT the little horn), that these two actors will not be active and attack the Church for some 2,000 years. 

If papal Rome is the little horn (which I do believe), then it seems to fit in many ways- one of which is that “he will think to change times and laws”, etc. And this would then require the 10 horns to “be” prior to His coming to power (5th century AD). 

This would require that we are successful in identifying the 10 horns that would have to “be” THEN (which we are not able to do).

Also, is it possible that the language used in Daniel speaking that the little horn is “on top or on the head” of the beast indicating he will “be” at or near the beginning of the time of the beast (papal Rome), and directs or rules this beast... and not “arrive” near the end of time? 

I certainly look forward to hearing back from you folks and thanks again!!!

Charlie

This argument won't work, because Rev. 17 speaks mostly of the demonic spirit behind the man Beast (AC). It is the Spirit that "was," 'is not," and will come again. 

The man (AC) and his kingdom is talked about in chapter 13. 

Please keep in mind, what we call "the Middle East" today was part of Rome then.  The ten nations just could be all the nations that surround Israel and hate her.  

[iamlamad]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:37 AM, Charlie744 said:

Shilohsfoal, thank you for the response! To be candid, I don’t believe I have heard this interpretation before... it certainly appears to be a departure from what I think most other folks believe... as I mentioned, I have yet to study Revelation. I am focusing entirely on Daniel WITHOUT relying or any verses in Revelation. 

I believe Daniel was written for the Jews first, and therefore, God would certainly ensure they would have ALL the prophetic information available to them to see Him on His first coming. The prophetic messages that would speak about those actors and events during the post crucifixion (2,000 years), would also be available, but would not be understood or purposed for Daniel. 

So, from my studies, which I can assure you are ALSO a significant departure from everyone else’s interpretation, I believe the 10 horns were present at the time of the crucifixion, as was the beast (in the form of pagan Rome). The little horn (papacy) came into power around the late 5th century, where they plucked up 3 of the 10. I think many may think of the number 10 as representing completeness but I believe it is a 10 power where 3 are removed.

Although the beast began as pagan Rome, it would come to represent all the diverse kingdoms over the next 2,000 years. Unlike the first 3 kingdoms which could be easily symbolized by a specific animal, there is no such animal on earth that could represent the terrible destruction and powers of all the kingdoms. 

Obviously, pagan Rome is gone but the beast will always be “operating” in one form or another until His second coming- but it is a secular power. Unfortunately, the little horn may change “heads”, if you will, but it will also be “operating” until the end. These actors and events are definitely represented by the 4th kingdom of Daniel’s-2, but the identification of and discussion of this 4th kingdom is to be found in Daniel 11. This is where God unpacks the 4th kingdom with the last section of 11 and all of 12 strictly speaking of the end times. 

This is why I wanted to hear everyone’s thoughts on the possible language within Daniel 7 through 12 to learn when the beast, the 10 horns and the little horn must arrive on the scene. 

This is ALL so interesting and difficult to unpack- but since Daniel must first be understood by the Jews (except for part of 11 and all of 12), we should try and also interpret Daniel without Revelation. 

Although there are perhaps 2 main interpretations on Daniel, there is no shortage of interesting comments and opinions. 

Look forward to hearing more thoughts and responses on this topic!!!

Charlie

Question: when the AC Beast comes on the scene, will he set up camp in the Vatican - or in Jerusalem?

[Charlie744]

Iamlamad, thank you for your thoughts!

 I believe you recently have responded twice...

As you might be aware, I have not studied Revelation and can not comment on 13. I believe Daniel must be interpreted on its own and in context with its own verses and not look to Revelation for interpretation (but as I mentioned many times, at the end of the day they can not contradict each other). 

Regarding your second question: I believe that pagan Rome is the beast. Consequently, they come to power prior to the crucifixion, they certainly continue until the late 400’s AD. The “beast” will continue until the second coming but it will not be “Rome”. It will be a Rome, meaning this beast will be like no other previous kingdom, hence there is no such animal on earth that could symbolize it. It (beast) will symbolize all the power, killing and destruction that will come upon the earth- so many different powers and empires will surface from the early Muslim empire to Hitler and beyond. The beast is the physical destruction and damage and murders, etc., regardless of the color of their jersey. Very simply, man will never change and will always seek power, glory and control through battle and wars. 

The little horn will arise from the beast and will also destroy, conquer and seek power, but for it will use a different approach (although the little horn would, for a time, use military and to destroy). Their war strategy focuses on gaining power and control through a religious approach, eventually claiming to be god on earth, ability to change God’s laws and times, and so much more. 

Both will continue until the second coming. 

Hope this answers your questions, Charlie 

 

 

[Michael37]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Michael... by the way, what is WADR?

WADR = With All Due Respect

WDUGI = Why Didn't U Google It

TTYL = Talk To You Later

HIDOY = Hope I Didn't Offend You

[Charlie744]

Thank you Michael... I really do not use “shorthand”, except for FYI...

And I hope you understand my response re: Revelation and not looking to Revelation to interpret Daniel.

Perfect example: perhaps 90% contend the “he” in 9:27 is a He and not “He”.

This and the supposed 7 year tribulation, along with the covenant reference has a tremendous impact on how folks interpret Revelation.

My opinion is completely different and identifies “he” as “He”, and also relates to the covenant and the cutting off in the mindst of the 7 year period.

Consequently, there is absolutely NO reason to look to Revelation - their interpretations of 9:27 will yield an interpretation in Revelation that could not possibly be in agreement with my Daniel.

There are also many more different interpretations in Daniel that I believe are misinterpreted... therefore, Revelation is even further corrupted (my opinion).

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Michael... I really do not use “shorthand”, except for FYI...

And I hope you understand my response re: Revelation and not looking to Revelation to interpret Daniel.

Perfect example: perhaps 90% contend the “he” in 9:27 is a He and not “He”.

This and the supposed 7 year tribulation, along with the covenant reference has a tremendous impact on how folks interpret Revelation.

My opinion is completely different and identifies “he” as “He”, and also relates to the covenant and the cutting off in the mindst of the 7 year period.

Consequently, there is absolutely NO reason to look to Revelation - their interpretations of 9:27 will yield an interpretation in Revelation that could not possibly be in agreement with my Daniel.

There are also many more different interpretations in Daniel that I believe are misinterpreted... therefore, Revelation is even further corrupted (my opinion).

 Thank you, Charlie 

@Charlie744 Your opinions have been noted.

In Biblical Theology I take the broad view in which all Scripture is woven together in harmony as a cohesive whole so that nothing in it stands alone. The cross-referencing of everything in the Bible with what is before it and what comes after it gives one perspective, whereas overemphasis of one section distorts the scale of the total picture.

From a study of Israel's history prior to John's vision on the island of Patmos it is possible to match elements of prophecy in Daniel that have already been fulfilled by the time Revelation was written by John as per God's instruction, but which have similarities in language and imagery that enable interpretation of both in a way that keeps the harmony of Scripture intact.    

[Charlie744]

Michael, I have witnessed a few folks in this forum that have such a beautiful gift of communicating their thoughts and opinions. You certainly are one of them. I have a different gift and it is so far from the one(s) you have been given.

 I am sure you have heard that “most guards want to be centers, and most centers want to play guard and dribble the ball up the court”.

 A lot of truth behind this ... I certainly would enjoy your kind of talent, but I think God knows what He is doing.

Anyway, I agree with you completely and without reservation. 

I remember long ago I was contemplating why the Torah was written without any spaces between the paragraphs and even at the word level. 

I don’ know the structure or construction of the Hebrew language, but I would be surprised that this is the way Hebrew is written (maybe it is, I don’t know).

In any event, I concluded that God simply said ONE long word to Moses. This would allow Moses to remember Genesis to Numbers as though it was just one long word.... But to tie this back to your response, I believe the Scriptures are similar in that they all act together as one word. They can not contradict any other part of this one word s it would simply become a misspelled word without anyone able to understand its meaning.

So your point is well taken. If I am able to read into your comment, you are telling me there is a link / connection / relationship / message between each and every word in Scriptures - in this case, Daniel to Revelation; they must fit together like a glove. And I agree but that does not guarantee an interpretation in Revelation that fits to an interpretation in Daniel is true and correct. 

If 9:27 is misinterpretated, and it surely is (my opinion), then this will (have to) match the interpretation made in Revelation- and that is exactly what has been done. 

So, I have decided to start back at square 1, take advantage  of all the tremendous work product generated over the past 2,000 years (which essentially results in two major interpretations for the ~ 11 or so primary differences in their interpretations), and focus on them only! I really do not have to reinvent the wheel when trying to understand the lion’ den, the metal man image, or the furnace stories. But these ~11 issues affect our interpretation of both Daniel and Revelation.... hence, no sense in concerning myself with their interpretations of Revelation.... I will / should be able to interpret Revelation when I have an interpretation of Daniel that works (for me). By trying to find the underlying message to us in Daniel that SPEAKS to The Messiah as opposed to trying to match these verses to someone in man’s history (AE, or Ptolemy), who have nothing to do with His Plan of Salvation, we will arrive at a very different interpretation.

 Thank you again , Charlie 

[luigi]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:41 PM, Charlie744 said:

During my study of Daniel 7, there are 10 horns that arise from the beast. Sometime later, another little horn will surface (but have different characteristics) and this little horn will pluck up 3 of the original 10. 

Almost all of the scholars agree these 10 represent 10 kingdoms or powers THAT WILL COME TO POWER (still) IN THE FUTURE. 

Question: Even though we have not been successful in identifying the 10 horns (near the beginning of the 4th kingdom), does the language in Daniel support the view that these 10 horns are / should / must / need to be present or arise either before, during or close after the crucifixion, as opposed to the far future period? 

Thank you, Charlie 

 

 

Hello Charlie744, If you look at Daniel 8:9, you will see this little horn rising from one of four horns that have seceded from a single notable horn of a he goat, after the he goat has conquered Persia/Iran.

This means that prior to secession of the notable horn, the fourth  beast in Daniel 7 would have had only 7 horns (militaries), corresponding to seven nations. Thus, when you look at Revelation 13 in describing the beast with 10 horns, it also describes this beast as having seven heads, thereby corresponding to seven nations.

[Charlie744]

Luigi, nice to hear from you again!

 I thought the little horn arose from the beast- the 4th kingdom? He came after the 10 horns surfaced from out of the beast as well?

 Thanks, Charlie