2 Corinthians 5:8 Absent from the Lord....

[iamlamad]

On 10/3/2020 at 5:36 PM, R. Hartono said:

The great multitude of Rev 7 were the living n the deceased whose soul was resurrected from Gehenna n then raptured to heaven as bride of Christ.

But the souls of under the Altar of Rev 6 were martrys in 7 years great tribulation who were beheaded when the 5th seal is opened n Christianity is banished all over the world.

Sorry, but John has not even started the 70th week yet, or the day of the Lord. The 5th seal martyrs are church age martyrs. The church age ends at the rapture a moment before the 6th seal.

[R. Hartono]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but John has not even started the 70th week yet, or the day of the Lord. The 5th seal martyrs are church age martyrs. The church age ends at the rapture a moment before the 6th seal.

The 1st seal opening will mark the 70th week, the souls of martyrs from church era from the first Stephen 2000 years ago wud hv been resurrected n taken with the Bridegroom together with wise virgins be4 the GT begins thats why the foolish virgins will scream Lord Loord let us in but Jesus shut the door of heaven

[Dennis1209]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:26 AM, Charlie744 said:

I think it might be safe to say that MOST folks believe this verse to confirm once an individual passes (in Christ), he or she will be “present in the Lord”.

 This might mean:

    a) their body goes back to the earth while their spirit or soul goes immediately into the presence of God,

   b) their body goes back to the earth, and because there is no sense of time, the next thing we see or become aware of is the presence of God,

   c) their body goes back to the earth, and His spirit that went into us (God breathed His spirit into Adam and he BECAME a living soul), returns to Him. At the end of time He will bring the two (Spirit + body) back together once again.

 I think these maybe the most accepted beliefs (?). 

Just about everyone I speak to only makes the statement, “absent from the body, present with the Lord”, as opposed to including the word “RATHER “. 

Consequently, from my point of view, the only reason why God would insert the word “RATHER” is to tell us this message speaks to the understanding (attempted, since there is no way we can fully appreciate being in His presence), we should / will learn just how much more we will rather be with Him than stay in this life .. death is not the end to fear. And this is the PRIMARY message and not that the next second we will be with Him.

So, what do you think is the PRIMARY message and your thoughts on this?

 Thank you, Charlie 

 

 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 

Just my thoughts; others mileage will greatly vary. The Apostle Paul got a glimpse of Heaven, and told not to peep a word about what he heard and seen. I personally believe he was personally tutored by the Lord Jesus Himself, shortly after his conversion along the Damascus Road. There's a missing few years where I believe he may have gone to Mt. Sinai. 

What's interesting about the Apostle to us gentiles; was the requirement to be one of Jesus' Apostles. To have witnessed and been present for His death, burial and resurrection; as I understand it. 

Paul longed to go to Heaven and be with the Lord; as we all should; had Paul had his way he would have; but his race was not finished, the Lord wasn't done with him yet when he wrote the above. 

I can't speak for Paul but, what I believe he is trying to convey is: (1) He is confident, willing and eager to leave his fleshly tent for the pleasures of Heaven and be with the Lord forever. Paul experienced more pain and suffering for Christ in the flesh, than probably all the other apostles combined? <- That's my opinion. 

(2) Paul was making a doctrinal important fact. When we die in Christ as true Christian believers, immediately upon death our soul and spirit leaves our bodies and goes immediately [in a twinkling of an eye] to the presence of the Lord Himself. 

I'm probably going to go kicking and screaming but, I'm also looking forward to personally meeting my Lord and Savior person to person; along with a glorified body.

 

[Dennis1209]

On 10/4/2020 at 5:47 AM, Charlie744 said:

the Lazarus parable

Not to criticize, just FYI.

PARABLE—(Gr. parabole), a placing beside; a comparison; equivalent to the Heb. mashal, a similitude. In the Old Testament this is used to denote (1) a proverb (1 Sam. 10:12; 24:13; 2 Chr. 7:20), (2) a prophetic utterance (Num. 23:7; Ezek. 20:49), (3) an enigmatic saying (Ps. 78:2; Prov. 1:6). In the New Testament, (1) a proverb (Mark 7:17; Luke 4:23), (2) a typical emblem (Heb. 9:9; 11:19), (3) a similitude or allegory (Matt. 15:15; 24:32; Mark 3:23; Luke 5:36; 14:7); Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.

In other words; a parable never uses proper names of people.

[Dennis1209]

On 10/6/2020 at 8:45 AM, Speks said:

We need to be very cautious about the experiences some claim to have had. At the very least we need to align such claims with the balanced revelation of Scripture. We need to allow the authority of Scripture to overshadow alleged experiences, while using wisdom to weigh up an individual's character and spiritual condition.

Out-of-body experiences and "visions" may not be what they seem. We walk by faith.

I definitely agree. I don't want to go off topic but, many off these NDE's are unexplainable. They all have one thing in common I suspect; they're not brain dead yet, and their soul has not left their body. I firmly believe:

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Charlie744]

Dennis, you made a comment about the use of parables...and in particular, the parable of Lazarus I mentioned in this topic.

 I have never heard of this- that parables never use proper names!

For me, there is no question the Lazarus parable IS a parable and does not attempt to that he or anyone is alive and sees, feels, thinks, etc., after death.

Can you tell me where this comes from and why you think this must be? Thank you, Charlie 

 

[enoob57]

5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Dennis, you made a comment about the use of parables...and in particular, the parable of Lazarus I mentioned in this topic.

 I have never heard of this- that parables never use proper names!

For me, there is no question the Lazarus parable IS a parable and does not attempt to that he or anyone is alive and sees, feels, thinks, etc., after death.

Can you tell me where this comes from and why you think this must be? Thank you, Charlie 

 

Because mentioning a specific to parable makes literary nonsense... parables were generalized concepts of God's Word in creation truths... The idea that parable can have non-truth is also wacko for God only speaks truth parable or no!

[Charlie744]

Thank you enoob! I certainly don’t know whether this story adheres to proper literary structure, but it is definitely a parable. 

I do understand this is the only parable which records a proper name but that only does not throw this into a real event.

If the name Lazarus was not placed in this story, is there any other reason it would be excluded as a parable?

Could Jesus be specifically inserting the name Lazarus as also representing His good friend who He resurrected? A dual message to both the Pharisees AND the Sadducees?

Isn’t there a statement that mentions “Jesus only spoke to them in parables” (during those times as opposed to “plain language”?

Just a few questions ... I am sure there are many more we could generate to discuss this interesting topic...

Charlie

 

[Sister]

On 10/5/2020 at 7:54 PM, Charlie744 said:

Thank you very much for your deep and always supported thoughts.

If you do not mind, can you please talk about the purpose of having the word “rather” in that verse?

 I would “rather” be present.... “

We can disagree regarding our interpretation of the Lazarus story... no problem!

There certainly are many folks who insist they have gone to heaven and returned.... this is well above my pay grade!!!

 Thank you again, Charlie 

Hi Charlie

Paul knows that after death, he will be in the resurrection of the saints. There is no other place to go after he is awakened for his salvation is secured. He would 'rather' that day then now.  Paul was living in the times of persecution, under the rule of wicked men, in a wicked world, but in the kingdom there will be peace and rest from all this.   This is the day we all yearn for.   There is no time ticking in the grave, the dead know nothing. 

2 Corinthians 5:6   Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

So in other words, whilst he was still living in the flesh, the resurrection has not come yet, therefore he is absent from Christ (physically only).  He wants to see him face to face.  He would rather that, ....who wouldn't?

2 Corinthians 5:8   We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He is not just speaking of himself, but all of us who desire the day of the Lord, to be standing with him.  This cannot happen whilst we are still in the flesh, in this body.  We need our 'change' first.

Some don't want to leave this body, but there is a better body coming,.... one made of spirit!  This is the one Paul was yearning for.

[enoob57]

15 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you enoob! I certainly don’t know whether this story adheres to proper literary structure, but it is definitely a parable. 

I do understand this is the only parable which records a proper name but that only does not throw this into a real event.

If the name Lazarus was not placed in this story, is there any other reason it would be excluded as a parable?

Could Jesus be specifically inserting the name Lazarus as also representing His good friend who He resurrected? A dual message to both the Pharisees AND the Sadducees?

Isn’t there a statement that mentions “Jesus only spoke to them in parables” (during those times as opposed to “plain language”?

Just a few questions ... I am sure there are many more we could generate to discuss this interesting topic...

Charlie

 

Your still missing the point of truth here- Jesus is speaking this and if any of it is false then it is lie.... Jesus has never lied! Parables are not excused from truth... and no you cannot say in fact it is a parable other than your will for it to be so... and parable or no there must be people awaiting in final judgment in agony or the account or parable is lie!