Understanding the timing of the rapture is too easy

[iamlamad]

On 12/29/2020 at 5:22 AM, Diaste said:

False. I am not faced with any such problem. A theme will be repeated and that is:

"That day shall not come except revolt and the revealing occur first." 'That day' can only be the coming and the gathering. As Paul said;

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"

The 'it' here is the coming and gathering. It can be nothing else. The order is established and it cannot be changed.

So if the gathering cannot occur until the  'falling away' occurs. Then what you have here is a gathering happening before the gathering.  

But Paul didn't write 'apo', did he? And you're missing a key element in the definition and usage of 'apo'; it's a separation from. Harpazo is a gathering to.

The whole idea of the gathering is bringing us to meet the Lord as Paul points out here; "our being gathered to him". I know what you are getting at but Paul never likens the gathering to 'separation from the world' but a 'gathering to'. 

 

Yes, and a change of location is described in 1 Thess 4. Why did you stop there with the possible usage and idea of 'apo'?

" of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place (of departing, fleeing, removing, expelling, throwing, " [This is not gathering to]

"of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken:" [We are not being separated from, we are being taken to]

" of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed;" [This doesn't follow the idea of gathering to]

So Paul understood something. You can't know that; you're just guessing since you cannot ask the author. That knowledge doesn't mean that's what Paul intended. Paul intended what he wrote; first the rebellion and the beast, then the coming and the gathering.

I have looked at many translations and used several different Greek/English translators as well as searched the etymology of 'apostasia'. The translators never return 'departing' and the etymology establishes rebellion, revolt or defection as the definition from as far back as the first copies of 2 Thess 2. 

"Departing" holds many ideas. In fact there are 20+ different words for 'departing' used in the NT and many by Paul. Funny he didn't use one in 2 Thess 2:3.

Even so, the problem remains of a gathering before the gathering if one insists apostasia means departing from one place to go to another. There is a departing in 2 Thess 2, it's a departing from God. You'll see. We all will see.

A departing from the world yes. But that idea is no where to be found except in the desperate, blind groping of a failed doctrine. Every time the 'rapture' is taught it's always a gathering to, not a departing from. 

The departing that's in view is a departure from the faith of God. I don't know why this is so difficult to comprehend. We see it every day en masse. Every mega church and every televangelist has long age departed from the faith. Some equate themselves with the Godhead, like the Pope. They aren't at the point where they have publicly sworn fealty to a false god but they have privately. They are leading millions right into the waiting maw of the beast. 

No, I don't insist 'falling away' is the best rendering. It captures the sense of the action in that it's a change in ideology. I much prefer 'defection'. Rebellion is also apt.

Consensus is just group think. If you want to know how it's phrased go to the Greek. 

The illogic of the pretrib position, and many others, is on full display in this havoc wreaked upon the words of Paul. How do you justify changing the order from 

"for that day [The Coming and Gathering] will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, " 

to the Holy Spirit restraining evil when Paul says; "And now you know what is holding him [The Lord] back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time." ???

Paul begins with saying the Day isn't coming until the beast is revealed. Therefore the revealing of the beast is what is holding back the Coming of the Lord. Nothing in the text mentions Michael, the Holy Spirit, or the church holding back evil. Nothing. Zero evidence. 

This made up story of the Holy Spirit being taken from the earth is tedious and reckless imo. What inhabits all the believers in Jesus during GT? Red Bull? 

 

You're close. This is the reason why we see it translated as it is. But you're wrong on the identity of the actors, their roles and the order. The context is, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" and the well put order of things is, " that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed,"

Paul says here the Day isn't coming until the beast is revealed. You cannot change the context or order by whimsy. Since the context and order is clear from the beginning, as well as the roles of the actors ergo;

What is being restrained is the Day Christ comes and what is restraining is the non-occurrence of the revealing of the beast.

But yes; the beast 'becomes out of the way' buy the revealing event. Meaning now that he has emerged on the world stage the Day of Christ and the gathering of the elect can occur where before it could not.

Yes, as described in 1 Thess 4. This is the idea, catching up to a meeting in the clouds, a gather to. You place the focus on the by product of leaving when no instrument of the Holy Spirit does so. 

Typical. Leave out the context of the first 2 verses.  Look at verse 3. What day is it that shall not come until the revealing? So not only does the twisted logic of a fear based doctrine demand the gathering occurs before the gathering; now the revealing of the beast cannot occur till the beast is revealed?

Paul is clear. The beast will be revealed before  Christ comes. The revealing of the beast is harbinger of the Coming of the Lord. What is held back is the Day of the Lord and what is holding back the Coming of the Lord is the as yet to happen emergence of the beast on the world stage. 

I doubt if you will ever really get this passage until you arrive in heaven.

Just so you know, the Day of the Lord is not equivalent to His coming and the gathering. 

And you are faced with that problem, but just don't know it. You ignore 3b that shows the man of sin as already having been revealed somewhere between 3a and 3b.  HOW did Paul get him revealed? He explains that in verses 6-8. The restrainer has to be taken out of the way first. Paul DID write "apo" when he penned apostasia: a departing and a standing. 

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The beast will be revealed before  Christ comes.

  WHICH coming? He is coming two more times: first to get His saints, then again with His saints. 

Paul tells us apostasia happens first, then the man of sin can be revealed.
Paul tells us the restrainer is gone first, then the man of sin can be revealed.

Therefore, apostasia  = restrainer gone or taken out of the way.

 

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What is held back is the Day of the Lord and what is holding back the Coming of the Lord is the as yet to happen emergence of the beast on the world stage. 

In Revelation the Beast is revealed at the 7th trumpet, proven by the fleeing started in 12:6. Yet, the DAY started at the 6th seal, 3.5 years before the revealing.

Paul said the same thing, but no details: apostasia or departing first, then the revealing.  John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, but shows the revealing in chapter 11. 7 comes before 11, so Paul and John are in agreement.  You are disagreeing with both Paul and John.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

Yep

No

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

YET ANOTHER PLACE A PRE TRIB RAP THEORY DOESN'T WORK OR GET MENTION



1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
THE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP,

THEREFORE THERE CAN BE NONE LEFT. 
 

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THE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP,

THEREFORE THERE CAN BE NONE LEFT. 

You missed something: it is the alive and remain that are IN CHRIST. It is Paul's rapture, and it is to take HIS CHILDREN out of the earth before wrath is poured out. OF COURSE there will be people left, to feel the sudden destruction Paul talked about.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ok. If you could show where scripture says there is a gathering before the seals open containing statements like: 'these came out of' like in Rev 7 or, 'I will send my angels to gather the elect' like in Matt 24 or, 'that day will not come until' as in 2 Thess 2, then I'll change me mind.

I can show where in scripture that we are told that we will not know when the rapture will occur. And yet you seem to have trouble believing what is written. You seek information that the Word clearly tells us that we are not going to get. He tells us clearly that we will not know when He will come and yet you need proof of when He will come. 

Matt 24

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

However, those on earth will know when the gathering from heaven and earth will happen. They will know when the Day of the Lord will occur, but that is not the rapture of the Church.

1 thes 5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Even though the Word clearly tells us that He will come in a time that we think not, we can look into the Word and find plenty of clues of when He will come. We can see the the 24 elders in heaven with their crowns in Rev 4. We can also see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. These events occur before the seals are opened.

Additionally, we know that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have their blindness removed. After that occurs God will turn His attention to the twelve tribes. That is why we have 144,000 first fruits for the NEXT harvest. That is the harvest that we see in Matt 24, Rev 14, and Rev 6 just prior to the Day of the Lord.

There is so much information on what is going to happen, all you have to do is just read what it says. There are so many that seem to have a problem accepting what the Word of God says and find it necessary to use their imagination. Once you start that process, you begin creating timelines that do not agree with scripture. 

The bottom line is the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. It's obvious that He wants it to be a surprise. He wants people to be ready throughout history so that they will live as if He could come at any time. And He can. 

That should be all the proof you need, though there is more.

 

 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

I can show where in scripture that we are told that we will not know when the rapture will occur. And yet you seem to have trouble believing what is written. You seek information that the Word clearly tells us that we are not going to get. He tells us clearly that we will not know when He will come and yet you need proof of when He will come. 

Not really. I was asking for the timing of a pretrib rapture in scripture.

The return of Jesus and the gathering are specified in time: after the days of GT and after the revolt and revealing, and found in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2.

1 Thess 4:15-17, the brass ring for pretrib,  has no timing. 

The result of the gathering is shown in Rev 7:9-17 and once again it is said it was after GT.

No such result is portrayed in the pretrib scenario.

 

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Matt 24

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I call your attention to 'hour' in the above quote. Then:

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

No one knows about that day or hour,

We can and will see it coming without exception. What we will never know is the moment. We have to see all these things and that includes the A of D and the signs of His coming. 

17 hours ago, The Light said:

However, those on earth will know when the gathering from heaven and earth will happen. They will know when the Day of the Lord will occur, but that is not the rapture of the Church.

Oh no? It's not the rapture of the church? What is it? The rapture of the rotary club?

So you are saying the gathered elect that went through the fire, ran from the beast, refused the mark and the worship of the beast and most of whom died are not the church?

But yet fat, happy western Christians whose only tribulation is the long commute, the neighbor's yapping mutt and overbearing assistants of micro managing bosses are the church and are somehow...more equal?

17 hours ago, The Light said:

1 thes 5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Big difference between the 'day' and the 'times' and seeing 'all these things'.

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Even though the Word clearly tells us that He will come in a time that we think not, we can look into the Word and find plenty of clues of when He will come. We can see the the 24 elders in heaven with their crowns in Rev 4. We can also see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. These events occur before the seals are opened.

The song of the elders in Rev 5 is not sung by a raptured multitude, neither do the elders equate themselves with a vast group of believers. The entire text of scripture is silent in identifying this group of 24. 

It's not the church. It is wild speculation.

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Additionally, we know that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of Israel will have their blindness removed. After that occurs God will turn His attention to the twelve tribes. That is why we have 144,000 first fruits for the NEXT harvest. That is the harvest that we see in Matt 24, Rev 14, and Rev 6 just prior to the Day of the Lord.

Not one word in the text tells us when the 144,000 are taken to Jesus. Not a single word. They are just suddenly there. More unsupported poppycock.

17 hours ago, The Light said:

There is so much information on what is going to happen, all you have to do is just read what it says. There are so many that seem to have a problem accepting what the Word of God says and find it necessary to use their imagination. Once you start that process, you begin creating timelines that do not agree with scripture. 

The bottom line is the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. It's obvious that He wants it to be a surprise. He wants people to be ready throughout history so that they will live as if He could come at any time. And He can. 

That isn't the conclusion of the story of the goodman. We are to watch. What is it that we are to watch for if we aren't here? Nothing, is the short answer. 

17 hours ago, The Light said:

That should be all the proof you need, though there is more.

Rhetoric isn't proof. It's just a story mostly presented by unwarranted gap filling.

Argue from silence all you like but qualify it as speculation and conjecture.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I doubt if you will ever really get this passage until you arrive in heaven.

Just so you know, the Day of the Lord is not equivalent to His coming and the gathering. 

And you are faced with that problem, but just don't know it. You ignore 3b that shows the man of sin as already having been revealed somewhere between 3a and 3b.  HOW did Paul get him revealed? He explains that in verses 6-8. The restrainer has to be taken out of the way first. Paul DID write "apo" when he penned apostasia: a departing and a standing. 

Here is the Greek of 2 Thess 2:3:

"μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον: ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ

 ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,"

The bold is 'en apostasia'. 

This is 'apo' " ἀπό". This does not appear in the Greek text of 2 Thess 2:3

I ignore nothing. Here's the verse:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The Day is the coming and gathering, forever linked in a single time space moment.

Paul is saying the Day will not come EXCEPT the apostasia and the apokalupto happen first.

You can't just go about changing the order and the context. 

 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

  WHICH coming? He is coming two more times: first to get His saints, then again with His saints. 

Paul tells us apostasia happens first, then the man of sin can be revealed.
Paul tells us the restrainer is gone first, then the man of sin can be revealed.

Therefore, apostasia  = restrainer gone or taken out of the way.

Wrong. Both the revolt and the revealing will occur before the Coming and gathering. 

20 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

In Revelation the Beast is revealed at the 7th trumpet, proven by the fleeing started in 12:6. Yet, the DAY started at the 6th seal, 3.5 years before the revealing.

Paul said the same thing, but no details: apostasia or departing first, then the revealing.  John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, but shows the revealing in chapter 11. 7 comes before 11, so Paul and John are in agreement.  You are disagreeing with both Paul and John.

Here you go again with that stuff. 

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art and wast , and art to come ; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

This is the 7th trumpet. Please point out where the beast is revealed at this moment in time. This is the wrath of God come to earth and the gathering of the saints.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

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Not really. I was asking for the timing of a pretrib rapture in scripture.

The return of Jesus and the gathering are specified in time: after the days of GT and after the revolt and revealing, and found in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2.

1 Thess 4:15-17, the brass ring for pretrib,  has no timing. 

The result of the gathering is shown in Rev 7:9-17 and once again it is said it was after GT.

No such result is portrayed in the pretrib scenario.

 

Of course there is no timing for the pretrib rapture. I think that I was clear enough. How could there be timing?  The Word says He will come in an hour that you think not. 

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I call your attention to 'hour' in the above quote. Then:

Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

No one knows about that day or hour,

We can and will see it coming without exception. What we will never know is the moment. We have to see all these things and that includes the A of D and the signs of His coming. 

 

If you don't know the day or the hour, then you don't know when he is coming. We know the season. The season is early summer. But what year?

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Oh no? It's not the rapture of the church? What is it? The rapture of the rotary club?

So you are saying the gathered elect that went through the fire, ran from the beast, refused the mark and the worship of the beast and most of whom died are not the church?

But yet fat, happy western Christians whose only tribulation is the long commute, the neighbor's yapping mutt and overbearing assistants of micro managing bosses are the church and are somehow...more equal?

 

Of course it's not the Church that goes through the tribulation. The 1st 6 seals is the tribulation with the great tribulation being the 5th seal and the coming of Jesus for the gathering is the 6th seal. It is the 12 tribes that go through the 70th week of Daniel as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Dan 9

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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The song of the elders in Rev 5 is not sung by a raptured multitude, neither do the elders equate themselves with a vast group of believers. The entire text of scripture is silent in identifying this group of 24. 

It's not the church. It is wild speculation.

 

Where there's smoke there's fire. Looks pretty cut and dried for anyone seeking the truth. As you know, the church is mentioned 19 times in the 1st three chapters. Why is it not mentioned again? We see elders in heaven with their crowns. And we see the elders speaking for a multitude in heaven. Where there is smoke there is fire. You can deny facts all you want, but that doesn't get you the truth.

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Not one word in the text tells us when the 144,000 are taken to Jesus. Not a single word. They are just suddenly there. More unsupported poppycock.

And you consider that proof that the 144,000 are not taken to Jesus? We see them in heaven and if you pay attention you can tell it happens during the seals, if you are smart enough to understand that Rev 14 occurs during the seals.

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That isn't the conclusion of the story of the goodman. We are to watch. What is it that we are to watch for if we aren't here? Nothing, is the short answer. 

Luke 21

²⁸ And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You can sit there in blindness and deny scripture all you want brother. Or you can accept the written Word of God. Each man has a choice. 

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Rhetoric isn't proof. It's just a story mostly presented by unwarranted gap filling.

Argue from silence all you like but qualify it as speculation and conjecture.

 

Oh, there's proof all over scripture. I can point it out, but if you don't have the ability to understand, that's not my issue. The Word says that the Church is in heaven before the tribulation. The tribulation is the 1st 6 seals and is the 70th week of Daniel. The 5th seal is the Great Tribulation. The Church is already in heaven whether you want to see it or not. It is the 12 tribes that God is dealing with during the tribulation. The 144,000 first fruits redeemed from the earth and before the throne are PROOF of a future harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth, as acceptable first fruits before the Lord guarantee a harvest. We can see that future harvest in Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

After this harvest from the earth, we can tell who is harvested. It is the 12 tribes across the earth. How do we know that? First, there is a guarantee of a harvest because of the 1st fruits. Second we can see who was harvested. Those that sing the song of Moses. That is not the Church.

Rev 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

We don't need to use are imaginations and start dreaming up things. All we have to do is read what the Word says.

I'm not sure why you can't see these things. You told me once that the rapture is not in the old testament. When I showed you, you just turned a blind eye. It is your job to open your eyes and see the truth. All you have to do is read what the Word says.

 

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Here is the Greek of 2 Thess 2:3:

"μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον: ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ

 ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,"

The bold is 'en apostasia'. 

This is 'apo' " ἀπό". This does not appear in the Greek text of 2 Thess 2:3

I ignore nothing. Here's the verse:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The Day is the coming and gathering, forever linked in a single time space moment.

Paul is saying the Day will not come EXCEPT the apostasia and the apokalupto happen first.

You can't just go about changing the order and the context. 

 

Wrong. Both the revolt and the revealing will occur before the Coming and gathering. 

Here you go again with that stuff. 

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art and wast , and art to come ; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

This is the 7th trumpet. Please point out where the beast is revealed at this moment in time. This is the wrath of God come to earth and the gathering of the saints.

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Here is the Greek of 2 Thess 2:3:

"μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον: ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ

 ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,"

The bold is 'en apostasia'. 

This is 'apo' " ἀπό". This does not appear in the Greek text of 2 Thess 2:3

 

Yes, of course it appears:

ἀποστασία: it is a compound word.

ἀπο  στασία

I think Paul knew this.

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that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Many translations say IS revealed, but "be revealed" means the same thing. How did he become revealed? Paul explains in verses 6-8: the one restraining  - holding back the man of sin's  being revealed is taken out of the way. This is why somewhere in verse 3a the restrainer is removed.  According to you, it must be the falling away. I don't buy it. Weak believers that will end up falling away could never be the restraining force or power.

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The Day is the coming and gathering, forever linked in a single time space moment.

So what you are saying is, they were all upset due to a letter or prophecy telling them the coming and gathering was now present. They were under great persecution. It is FAR FAR FAR more likely they thought this persecution was the Day of the Lord or the Day of God's wrath, not a gathering. 

Did you not read? 

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Please point out words here that could be the gathering. All this time I have believed the prophets: that the day of the Lord is a DARK day of God's wrath. Now you are trying to tell us it is synonymous with His coming and the gathering.  I don't buy it. 

The truth is, the rapture comes first, and is the TRIGGER for the DAY. In other words, we are out of here just before wrath, not in the midst of wrath.

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Paul is saying the Day will not come EXCEPT the apostasia and the apokalupto happen first.

Let me rewrite:

Paul is saying the Day (cruel both with wrath and fierce anger) will not come EXCEPT the departing (apostasia) happen first (and then) and the revealing of the man of sin (apokalupto) takes place.

Paul's argument is, when these things happen, in this order, then all will know that THE DAY (cruel both with wrath and fierce anger) has started and they are now IN IT (it is present).

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Wrong. Both the revolt and the revealing will occur before the Coming and gathering. 

get this straight:

The Day of the Lord: Cruel, both with wrath and fierce anger

The gathering: on a day when people are saying peace and safety (a day like today) when SUDDENLY Jesus comes, the saints are called up, and then wrath begins.

TWO different events with two very different outcomes. They are NOT SYNONYMS!

[Diaste]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Yes, of course it appears:

ἀποστασία: it is a compound word.

ἀπο  στασία

I think Paul knew this.

You think? A compound word has it's own definition and usage, it doesn't carry the definition and usage of the prefix. But carry on....

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Many translations say IS revealed, but "be revealed" means the same thing. How did he become revealed? Paul explains in verses 6-8: the one restraining  - holding back the man of sin's  being revealed is taken out of the way. This is why somewhere in verse 3a the restrainer is removed.  According to you, it must be the falling away. I don't buy it. Weak believers that will end up falling away could never be the restraining force or power.

Too hung up on the restrainer and forgetting the overall context.

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

So what you are saying is, they were all upset due to a letter or prophecy telling them the coming and gathering was now present. They were under great persecution. It is FAR FAR FAR more likely they thought this persecution was the Day of the Lord or the Day of God's wrath, not a gathering. 

No. There were false reports circulating. Paul is affirming the truth's he taught them and telling them to ignore anything else. I can only speculate on the mindset of the Thessalonians and what was going on with them.

But yes, it seems reasonable to conclude the Thessalonians were under the mistaken impression they were caught up in a time in which they were not supposed to be in. 

And don't forget Paul begins 2 Thess 2 with; "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus AND our gathering together to Him.

It's not just the day of wrath they feared they were in but also that the had missed the gathering.

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Did you not read? 

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Please point out words here that could be the gathering. All this time I have believed the prophets: that the day of the Lord is a DARK day of God's wrath. Now you are trying to tell us it is synonymous with His coming and the gathering.  I don't buy it. 

Well...one doesn't cancel the other. It's clear the scenario would play out as Jesus put it; The Signs appear, the earth mourns as Jesus appears, the angels are sent to gather the elect, wrath falls. Plausible and unforced and the very best understanding of the Coming, the Gathering and wrath.

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

The truth is, the rapture comes first, and is the TRIGGER for the DAY. In other words, we are out of here just before wrath, not in the midst of wrath.

Yes, you have said this many, many times. No scripture is offered, but you believe it.

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Let me rewrite:

Paul is saying the Day (cruel both with wrath and fierce anger) will not come EXCEPT the departing (apostasia) happen first (and then) and the revealing of the man of sin (apokalupto) takes place.

Except for apostasia is rebellion, revolt or, defection. It's only departing from an ideology, and is not a harpazo.  This crowbar of irrational thinking pretrib uses to leverage harpazo into 2 Thess 2:3 is just outstanding. 

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Paul's argument is, when these things happen, in this order, then all will know that THE DAY (cruel both with wrath and fierce anger) has started and they are now IN IT (it is present).

Not exactly. We are told we do not suffer wrath so we will never be in it. But this is the pretrib way. Pretrib believers avoid wrath yet allow for their own brothers and sisters to suffer God's wrath. Shockingly prejudicial.

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

The gathering: on a day when people are saying peace and safety (a day like today) when SUDDENLY Jesus comes, the saints are called up, and then wrath begins.

No, no, no...Paul does not say that.

"For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.…"

This peace and safety is not necessarily tied to the day of the Lord and that destruction. It could be but it's not clear here. It looks to me like this is a sign of the times. Paul is telling us what it will look like. I think that's supported by the cries for peace and security we have been hearing. No sudden destruction as yet.

On 12/31/2020 at 5:56 PM, iamlamad said:

TWO different events with two very different outcomes. They are NOT SYNONYMS!

Fine. Have it your way. Ignore that Paul, whom you cite often as your pretrib oracle, links the Coming and the gathering together;

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"

Forget that Jesus did the same:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

There will be no gathering of the saints until the beast is revealed, the megachurches and their followers have all sworn allegiance to the beast, including the Catholic church and the acolytes of western televangelists, and the the Signs of the coming of the Son of Man occur. 

[JoeCanada]

On 12/31/2020 at 4:56 PM, iamlamad said:

Paul is saying the Day (cruel both with wrath and fierce anger) will not come EXCEPT the departing (apostasia) happen first (and then) and the revealing of the man of sin (apokalupto) takes place.

Paul's argument is, when these things happen, in this order, then all will know that THE DAY (cruel both with wrath and fierce anger) has started and they are now IN IT (it is present).

Hi iamlamad,

Except for 1Thes:

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...

THEN.......WE who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord"

This "catching up" only happens after the dead in Christ rise FIRST. This is the FIRST resurrection that Rev 20:5-6 alludes to....

" The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection, over these the second death has no power; but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

So we are raptured AFTER the dead in Christ are raised. I think that you have to agree....yes?

Now I will give you credit for believing that the "departing, apostasy, rapture" and the "revealing of the antichrist" ALL must happen before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath. Absolutely. No believer is subject to God's Wrath. 

If we examine 2 Thes 1:4-   

" We ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.".....( right here we are told about tribulation )

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering". 

"For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to those who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution ........" 

God will pour out His wrath after the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ are rescued............ this is not a rescue from tribulation, it is a rescue from God's Wrath. They are two different scenarios. Tribulation has been/is going on still today. The great tribulation is the "megas tribulation". Megas means widespread, not more intense. This great tribulation will have a global impact, affecting almost every place on earth. It is Satan's wrath..... Rev 12:12....."woe to the inhabitants of earth, for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath". God's wrath happens after. God will not share His glory with Satan...."God alone will be exalted in that day"..... Isa 2:11

We are told that tribulation is God's righteous judgment so that we will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God............. for which indeed we will suffer!

It's right there..... this is Paul's teaching. We will go through tribulation. We will suffer. Our perseverance and faith will get us through the persecutions and afflictions we will face.....with the help from the Holy Spirit.

We will face the antichrist. We will be tested by his deceptions, by his temptations to take his mark, to bow down to him so that we can eat.  But God has given us scripture that says He will give us some of the hidden manna..... He will provide for us.... our faith in Him and our perseverance will carry us through. And if we die.... hooray! We died for Him!..... 

Now....pick up your cross and follow Him.