What is a "soul?"

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Alive.

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Consider a grain of wheat. It has three parts.

Every analogy will break down in the light of Truth. All this analogy teaches us is that a grain of wheat has three parts (although they are not listed here). PERIOD! It does NOT imply that there are three parts to a human being. And, there are NO Scripture verses that suggest such a tripartite position! Only when one reads a verse with theology-colored glasses will one come out with such a position that is debunked by the definitions of the Greek words involved.

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Each part is vital, distinct and indivisible for purpose and function and most importantly, for reproduction and consumption.

Everything in Creation teaches an aspect of God and being.

Well, everything in Creation REVEALS an aspect of God, IF one is willing to see God as the Creator of everything within the 6 days of Creation.

[DeighAnn]

On 10/21/2020 at 8:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

Thus, if there's no "Heaven" and we're anticipating the "New Jerusalem," and if there's no separate entity called a "soul," which actually means "an air-breathing creature," then one can see how VERY IMPORTANT the Resurrection of our bodies is! Some call this "soul sleep," but I call it something closer to reality; I call it "soul annihilation!" When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST! From that point on until the Resurrection, one who has died ONLY exists in the MIND OF GOD!

PROBABLY JUST MORE OF THE SAME, BUT This is as far as I made it so far.  BECAUSE

That is the scariest PRESENTATION I have ever heard of as to our "flesh" death and what happenS next.  




Our earthly/terrestrial/corruptible bodies are where our soul (life) and spirit (good or evil) reside, until that flesh gives out.  Then, just like when you put a seed in the ground the seed dies so the plant can grow, we step into our heavenly/celestial/incorruptible bodies and return to God.  

 

Ecclesiastes 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: AND THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT.  


 

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

1Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

1Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.




2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



 

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



 

Ezekiel 44:19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.

Ezekiel 44:20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.

Ezekiel 44:21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.

Ezekiel 44:22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.

Ezekiel 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

Ezekiel 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Ezekiel 44:25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

 

[DeighAnn]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:20 AM, Retrobyter said:

So, similar to how a person is revived by a person trained in CPR, God puffed the puff of life into the first Man. HOWEVER, He puffed the puff of life into the first MAN, not "the body of the Man!" Hebrew has words that mean "body," like "geviyah" (meaning a "lifeless corpse"), if that's what God wanted to say. He didn't say that, though!

You are a son of God, correct?   Yes.  Good.



 when was this?  


Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?



 

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Not go to God who made it BUT RETURN to God who GAVE it.  



Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.  Not I am going to love, future tense, but loved, past tense.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[DeighAnn]

On 10/23/2020 at 2:53 PM, Retrobyter said:

However, if, as I suspect, Yeshua` will at that time be on a zealous mission to rescue and avenge His people Israel, THEN we'll be on our way TO THE MIDDLE EAST, instead!

I busted out laughing.  Never heard it put like that before.  Thank you for that.  I agree with this myself.  

[Speks]

We have to be careful in discussions like this we don't present some personal convictions or theories as definite facts. That may not be our intention, but it can come across that way. Many subjects in Scripture are more than clear enough. In fact most of Scripture can be comfortably taken to strengthen our faith and can be used to build up one another when we get together.

There are so many God-breathed truths we can be assured of. They instruct and correct us, equipping us for righteous living and serving Christ as He has enabled us. There is so much in Scripture we can use to strengthen our faith and ground us in sound teaching. The spiritually mature can humbly instruct others, but their conscience warns them when they are in danger of peddling their own personal preferences. We are always learning and growing.

We need to allow ourselves to be rightfully balanced by others to prevent us from unintentionally distorting God's Truths. Most of all we need to remember that some may accept our words as teaching, but God may not have equipped us to teach in this way. (Consider 1st Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11-14; James 3:1, 2.) Accurately handling Scripture in authority is a serious responsibility. 

I know many of us understand all of this. (It's reassuring to come on someone here who seems to have a very high view of Scripture.) It can of course be helpful to discuss Truth. However, I've read more than a few posts on this forum that were (to me, please note!) harmful false teachings, or clashed very badly with my understanding of the fullness of Scripture. But on occasions I've been edified too. And I need that!

Yes, many things in life need explained authoritatively, but I'm just sharing again while it was on my mind...
 

[Charlie744]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

I see (I think). You're reading is akin to "Because you have toealday believed me you will etherefore be with me in paradise after I have arisen." Is that correct?

Sorry for not being so clear... but yes. The real faith exhibited by this thief at the of his life, and despite the fact he was a criminal and sinner outside of God His entire life, would be the reason he would spend eternity with Jesus... but not at the resurrection of Jesus but at his resurrection when all others in God would be resurrected. 

[Charlie744]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

The Hebrew word is "qodesh" (H6944) and it literally means "apart" or "separate." It carries with it the connotation of being sacred but the word means "separate."  It's variation qadash (H6942) means set aside for consecration.

There is nothing specifically special about the Jews themselves. They weren't more better humans. It was God who designated them apart from all other nations. Likewise, ground is ground. There's no specific cluster of dirt molecules that are uniquely special than all others; it is God's specific manifestation that makes a given ground special. It is the setting aside for a given religious condition that makes it sacred, not anything inherent within or upon the earth. Nothing inherently special about you or me, either. We are made special by having been separated from the rest of the sinfully dead slaves by God's grace.

Now that’s what I talking about!! Great stuff! I am aware the Hebrew words have or can have more than one or more meanings...but for those fluent in Hebrew and understanding the context in which that word is being used can determine or find its true meaning... 

On a few occasions I have mentioned that I believed God made a significant distinction between His “making” of the animals v. but the “creation” of man. I would assume God also selected specific and very different words ... He did not breathe into the animals but He did breath into man... and, for me, I believe this was His Holy Spirit and not simply air. Certainly this is not mentioned in Genesis but might be found or performed once again by Jesus after His resurrection. Thoughts? Thank you again, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Then why view the word "today" temporally if Jesus is talking about the other side of the grave? 

Sorry for not seeing this as you are.. I hope I can provide a clear response to your question! He is telling him AND all of His followers that He is confirming that we are SURE to be with Him after our death... Do not fear...do not fear those that can kill the body but He that can destroy both body and soul (death is not permanent... we all die, but all will be resurrected- some to ...... ..

He is telling the thief and us that “I am confirming or assuring you what I have been preaching IS TRUE- His message is not designed to comfort just this thief... although I am certain it did just that, but He was assuring all that we who placed our faith in Him, regardless of the timing of our salvation in Him would be saved. Faith not works (life of good deeds all during one’s life) is not the “key”. But faith only!  

Everyone finds themselves in a situation where may have some confusion.. we might want or need someone (policeman or fireman, etc.) to tell us with authority to go here or that way for safety- by their voice and tone we are assured this guy knows the way out of this bad situation.... He is telling us NOW, listen to me, listen tme at this time, there may not be another time for me to be repeat this to you, go this way or go that way and you will live! TODAY, RIGHT NOW, do this ... 

His message to the thief must be viewed not just in the narrow but it was given to all mankind... 

Fragmented but I hope I made my opinion clearer, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

I have written about this at great length in many different ops. This was an OT view asserted by Solomon (most think rhetorically) as a reflection of the commonly held Jewish belief there was no afterlife or resurrection. In Jesus' day this was a matter of some significance and division between the majority Sadducees and the minority Pharisees, the latter of whom did believe in a resurrection and thereby life after dead.

Jesus made it quite clear the dead do know something. They know quite a lot, actually. They know Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and they will be made to bow to him and confess that fact to the Father's glory. They know their destruction. They know they're not the redeemed and others are. They know the gnashing of teeth. 

This is one of the examples where and why caution and discernment should be used when citing the OT. The NT often corrects common misconstructions of the OT and reveals what was previously veiled. 

I have always thought or believed the OT is the source and only method to interpret the NT.. and since there can not be any contradictions within His Word, our understanding and interpretations must be bounced off the OT. In the previous response to your last question I tried to connect God’s breathing into this form which would become Adam with the NT event when Jesus breathed onto His Disciples... IF these two events are meant to be given to us by God to be the same and provide us a better understanding of what He did with Adam (.. more than just breathing air into him), than the NT can illuminate our understanding in Genesis, but not define it. That certainly may or WILL sound so cryptic and confusing... but please allow me to offer a much better example for this as I have indeed found this clear and appropriate (to me)...

In my study of Daniel I have once again found myself on the minority (if I could even raise it to a minority). I would estimate that some 80 % of scholars, theologians and serious and talented students of the Scriptures contend that 9:24 speaks of “he” as the coming anti-Christ figure and NOT “He”, The coming Messiah. Everyone (almost) like Walvoord, Gill, Clarke... on and on... those who have written volumes on Daniel and are considered The Authorities are on board with this interpretation. And this interpretation is confirmed or found to be supported by their interpretation of / in Revelation. In this case, I believe they are using Revelation to confirm their interpretation of “he” in Daniel. Almost every TV evangelist from Smith to Lindsay to Jeremiah to .... contend this “he” is not “He” and then tie this to their theory of a 7 year tribulation period where this “he” in 9:24 will arise. 

To me, they have completely misinterpreted Daniel and are trying to interpret it through Revelation. I argued that Revelation can NOT drive or determine Daniel (it can not contradict or conflict it; it can support or illuminate Daniel but not drive it. Daniel comes first and must be used to interpret Revelation. 

Oh ... I believe I am now completely in the middle of the ocean and have no idea how I got here!!!!!

 I am just going to shut this down and leave to complete some other things... I will try to respond to your (and others) responses later this afternoon... sorry for all the dribble above, Charlie 

[Alive]

21 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Ooooo... No, that's the cart before the horse; the order is reversed. 

The OT informs the NT; the NT interprets the OT. 

When the OT says            x, y, z          , and one of the NT writers quotes or references that OT text and then explains what that OT text means that is the proper understanding. What may have been previously understood is incorrect if there is any variation. This is why so much of Jesus' teaching wasn't so much new as it was correcting. "You have heard it said..... but I say....." and then he proceeds to explain what God originally intended! The same is true of Peter, Paul, James and the rest of the NT writers. 

This has been the Christian hermeneutic for the overwhelming majority of the Church and the prevailing hermeneutic throughout Church history with a few notable exceptions. This is especially true of Protestants and it was not until John Darby asserted his Dispensational view that any alternative held any significant ground in the Church. 

 

If Moses says, "X" and Paul later tells us "When Moses said, 'X,' this is what he meant:......" we go with Peter over Moses. 

If David said, "Y" and Peter later tells us, "When David said, 'Y' this is what God intended us to understand:...." we go with Paul, not David. 

 

If you want to understand Daniel then look first to how the NT writers rendered him. Then you'll be better able to measure modern writer's usage. 

A little dyslexia there, brother.

lol