What is a "soul?"

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Speks said:

walk in the Spirit

How? Can you give an example?

 

1 hour ago, Speks said:

die to self.

Scripture to that?

[Dennis1209]

On 12/6/2020 at 5:01 AM, Speks said:

  

This is an entirely appropriate conclusion to reach based on the whole of Scripture, including the likes of Ecclesiastes 12:7, Isaiah 42:5, James 2:26... The divine breath is indeed life and spirit.

The fullness of the Hebrew definition is: “1. breath of God as hot wind kindling a flame; as destroying wind; as cold wind producing ice; as creative, giving breath to man. 2. breath of man; breath of life; as breathed in by God it is God’s breath in man; and it is characteristic of man. 3. syn. of every breathing thing. 4. spirit of man” (from Brown-Driver-Briggs).

I’m always a little cagey when I come across a comment like this. We ought to flag it simply because the major versions translate the Greek “natural body” (1st Corinthians 15:44).

This means a single student is pitting himself against the many qualified scholars represented by the NASB, ESV, NET, CSB, AMP (also "physical body"), and NIV. Claiming they have all done a poor job is just a bit of a problem...

 

Afternoon there Speks!

First let me say, I really like my Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon over Strong's or Zodhiates. Well, over Strong's anyway, not to say anything is wrong with any of them. 

At 68 years old, today I just ordered and received my very first Bible that was not a KJV, the ESV. Though I'm still a KJV diehard  I'm still of the opinion many Bible versions and translations are copyrighted and used as a cash-cow but... All English translations from the Greek and Hebrew have some problems. I'm sure you're well aware of all that so no need to expound on it. 

What's nice about some of the newer translations, they incorporate some missing information [and italics] from what earlier translated versions had to work with, with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. In addition, there is a wealth of information cluing us in on what they thought, believed and other things they read during the intertestamental period. 

I can't point to any biblical scholar that limits themselves to one translation of the Bible? I've found the Septuagint very useful also. It's my thought that Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Septuagint more than anything else. Even from I Enoch, which was also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. 

It's clear the apostles read other literature, as they mention or quote some of it in scripture. To me, it stands to reason, they are drawing their audience to fill in some blanks scripture doesn't go into detail about, or. Something that at the time they could relate to, was known, understood and believed.  

Just some thoughts?

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Speks said:

"Spirit + flesh = soul"... 

Some may think this is right, but maybe it's just trying to say the right thing in the wrong way? In my reading of Scripture, spirit "plus" the body brings the soul into existence — the presence of the soul is evidence of life in the body. But, spirit plus the body does not "=" soul. 

Adam received the breath of life (the first human spirit) from the Lord God, and this life in the human body produces the soul, the expressive consciousness of man.

The body without the spirit is dead, and of course, if the body is lifeless there can be no soul. Body, soul and spirit together form the completeness of man. 

The Holy Spirit lives in the believer's body. The powerful Life of the Word of God can pierce deeply, dividing soul from spirit within us. This divine action brings a spiritual awareness that effectively judges and exposes the damaging hindrances that originate wholly in the human soul, the source of our expression of self apart from God's instruction and leading. 

In ourselves we can accomplish nothing for Christ. In response to our faith, the Holy Spirit in our spirits reveals the mind of Christ. When we can clearly identify our unspiritual characteristics and activities, and when we understand His will for us, we will grow spiritually and be productive.

Condensed further: it's God's intention we —

• remain steadfast in Christ,
• take up our cross daily,
• are established in the Truth,
• walk in the Spirit,
• deny self and
• die to self.

Say hey again!

Interesting discussions going on here, and I'm surely not going to say I have the correct opinion on anything. Somewhere in this massive thread, I've shown that animals with nostril's, have bodies, soul's and spirits. 

I'm thinking the "key" is; we are created in the image of God, we are imagers of God. Being an imager, exactly what does that mean, to be an imager?

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, Speks said:

"Spirit + flesh = soul"... 

Some may think this is right, but maybe it's just trying to say the right thing in the wrong way? In my reading of Scripture, spirit "plus" the body brings the soul into existence — the presence of the soul is evidence of life in the body. But, spirit plus the body does not "=" soul. 

Speks, always nice to see your thoughts and responses! You say that Spirit plus the body brings the soul into existence... that makes total sense to me, but how can that not be A+B = C? If you take either away you no longer have C... agree? C has no “life or being” unless the two are kept together... ???

 I am having trouble understanding this ... C is definitely proof of the evidence of life but it ceases to “be” (no longer having evidence of life) should one of the two parts are missing or removed- no more soul!

 

3 hours ago, Speks said:

Adam received the breath of life (the first human spirit) from the Lord God, and this life in the human body produces the soul, the expressive consciousness of man.

Maybe this is the issue... I don’t think it PRODUCES a soul, rather it BECOMES a soul. Throughout the Scriptures (hopefully this is true in ALL books), God takes two parts and makes or creates ONE. Adam and Eve joined together to make ONE. Take either away and THEY are no more. 

3 hours ago, Speks said:

The body without the spirit is dead, and of course, if the body is lifeless there can be no soul. Body, soul and spirit together form the completeness of man. 

Again I think I see where you might be treating the soul as a third part or component of man... I see you saying that if we take away A or B then there can be no C... so C is not a “part or component” of this joining together.. It IS the joining together. 

3 hours ago, Speks said:

The Holy Spirit lives in the believer's body. The powerful Life of the Word of God can pierce deeply, dividing soul from spirit within us. This divine action brings a spiritual awareness that effectively judges and exposes the damaging hindrances that originate wholly in the human soul, the source of our expression of self apart from God's instruction and leading. 

Yes, without the Spirit of God we would cease to “be”. Our soul would no longer exist.

Sorry for repeating myself... I believe we lost our Spirit when we disobeyed God. We continued with body and breath but not His Spirit- that was lost and we had to be removed from Eden. From then on we have got to find our way back into Eden... but this can not be accomplished without the restoration of The Holy Spirit— this is where God’s Plan of Salvation comes in- we must accept The Holy Spirit back into our lives; there is no other way!  So without The Holy Spirit we will be separated from God forever- at His second coming we will be divided —- those that have rejected His Holy Spirit will be seen by God as body and breathe only. Those in Christ will be seen as a Living Soul- where His Holy Spirit has been restored. His Word will certainly divide the soul from His Spirit. 

3 hours ago, Speks said:

In ourselves we can accomplish nothing for Christ. In response to our faith, the Holy Spirit in our spirits reveals the mind of Christ. When we can clearly identify our unspiritual characteristics and activities, and when we understand His will for us, we will grow spiritually and be productive.

Condensed further: it's God's intention we —

• remain steadfast in Christ,
• take up our cross daily,
• are established in the Truth,
• walk in the Spirit,
• deny self and
• die to self.

Hope some of this makes sense... For me, I think it can keep its integrity through the Scriptures.. The make up or components of this Living Soul as made by God in His image has been corrupted by us- we lost His Holy Spirit breathed into our existence.. our fate will be decided on whether we accepted His Holy Spirit and became as we once were- the way He created us.

Charlie

[DeighAnn]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Well, let's look at what I wrote. I listed several aspects from Jeremiah 4 that anyone and everyone can verify if and when the open their Bible to that chapter. They are, 

1) Israel returns,
2) the nations are blessed in Him,
3) the heart is circumcised,
4) the standard of Zion is lifted up,
5) their cities are in ruins,
6) Israel's king(s) fail and their priests and prophets are shocked,
7) besiegers come from a distant country,
8) their ways and deeds have brought evil,
9) the daughter of Zion cries in anguish. 

That's 9 facts of scripture. There whether found or not they are there. 

When Gods Word says
Ecclesiastes 1:8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.



 I read this to mean "there is no remembrance of former things".  I know that there is "remembrance" of all things since:  And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  Much remembrance and many details.
 
There are absolutely 2 or more schools of thought.  
1. There are things which we don't remember from previous to that
or 
2. The former things of which there is no remembrance ARE ACTUALLY "things to which there is remembrance for"

I go with answer 1.  Doesn't matter if I understand it or not.  I take it as a fact.  Set it about rambling around in my head.  WHEN GOD wants me to come to understanding it I do.  BUT once HE has, well, all I am saying is no "man" has ever disrupted it in any way.  

Also when I read:  The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

TO ME means that things that are going to happen have happened before, and things that have happened will happen again,  of which there are also 2 or more schools of thought

1.  We are given information on things that have taken place for instructions on how to handle our future so what is written about a past even CAN SEEM like it is a future event in which sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.  What will happen will tell us exactly which way is correct.  

2.  EVERY verse is for a specific time and event and never speaks of past and future events.  
I go with 1.

 Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

And maybe that's just all there is to it. 

We do not divide the Word of God the same, at this time.  We will someday.  We should talk then.  It isn't that I haven't been there myself

I am not saying that part of what you write can fit, what I am saying is there are, absolutely,  parts that don't.  AND because they don't, I seek out why.  I don't lock the scripture down, I let it flow, I don't direct it. I follow where it leads.   I have no "slogan doctrine" it needs to fit into. 

Some people believe one scripture conflicts with another scripture or this book with that one because they ASSUME that because some of the words and wording are similar they  MUST BE speaking to the same event.  I don't.  If they don't PERFECTLY fit, then I have the problem in understanding, as Gods Word remains perfect.  I know I have a problem because the WORD OF GOD IS PERFECT.   And I mean I believe it is "perfect".   How many sermons a day are given in one day by the same person?  How many times did Jesus preach the same sermon?  Was every one about the exact same thing? time? event? way?  How many "last suppers" were there really?

 I take what is written to mean exactly that and yet that exact same thing means something different to others.  I wish I had been keeping a running account of all the different places I have been told "God didn't write what He meant, let me tell you what He really meant". 

I believe It is revealed in measures.  And to each man a different measure has been given.  

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isaiah 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


 

 

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

 

Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isaiah 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

Isaiah 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isaiah 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Isaiah 28:23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.

Isaiah 28:24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?

Isaiah 28:25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?

Isaiah 28:26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

Isaiah 28:27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.

Isaiah 28:28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.

Isaiah 28:29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

[enoob57]

Biblical prophecy about all knowledge of 1st creation event ends:
Isa 65:16-17

16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
KJV
 

fulfillment witnessed by John:

Rev 21:1-6

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

KJV
 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Gods Word is constantly growing. 

Oh, really?? Then why does God's Word say,

Psalm 119:89 (KJV)

 89 For ever, O LORD, thy word IS SETTLED in heaven.

That's the past tense!

Quote

The Spirit reveals His Truth when He will.  If we aren't growing in HIS TRUTH, then neither are we knowledge and wisdom, and it isn't because GOD doesn't want to reveal it to us, it is because we become so ATTACHED to what we THINK we know,  that we become no longer open and ABLE to see and hear what The Word is revealing.  

What was the problem encountered before the WORD was made FLESH?  

GODS SPIRIT wasn't being seen or heard and worst of all, not FELT.  It wasn't producing the love of God and our brethren as it was meant to do.  They were so into THE WORDS, the "letter" of the law,  their proper context, their exact meanings, and following the "rules" perfectly THAT THEY COULDN'T GRASP the LOVE, "the story being told" and what was really being given.  They were so hard working at it, they completely missed the LOVE of GOD.    

It is happening again today.  Amongst us Christians.  So sure of having gotten something right, we become closed to anything new.  It's like the UNDERSTANDING,  "the deeper treasures", can't penetrate, they don't change the perception.  The pearls of WISDOM are not ALLOWED in to open the eyes and ears to the deeper TRUTHS.  


GOD surrounds us with INFINITE and vast surroundings YET WE try to narrow it down to the most basic of HUMAN understandings.  AND mans understanding of the Word has BOUNDRIES,  The Spirit's renderings are infinite.  
 

Yeah, people are CONSTANTLY trying to read the "deeper treasures" of God's Word instead of just accepting the normal grammatical-historical interpretation of God's Word. It's a FARCE! You're READING INTO God's Word something that was NEVER meant to be interpreted from God's Word! There's a word for this: It's "EISEGESIS" (as opposed to "exegesis"), and it is an ERROR in interpretation! It's allegorical thinking at its worst, even when people like to "pretty it up" by saying it's "spiritual interpretation." (There's that word "spiritual," again!) The bottom line of this kind of interpretation is this: You're PUTTING WORDS IN GOD'S MOUTH, saying He said something He said absolutely NOTHING about! Tell me THAT won't come at a high price in the Judgment!

Quote

 Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build Me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of My rest?

Acts 7:50 Hath not My hand made all these things?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.


Example - this post.  

I hear an implication in this quote, but ... water off a duck's back, since it doesn't apply to me.

Quote

And the earth was void and without form.  OK, take it on face value.

The Serpent in the garden.  OK, that brings up the question of HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?  Who is this "serpent"?  How is he in Gods Garden?  Why? 

We're not told all that YOU want to hear. Here's all God said about it:

Genesis 3:1 (KJV)

1 Now the serpent was more subtil (Hebrew: `aaruwm = "cunning; crafty; shrewd") than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman,

"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

At this point, there's a LOT of theology - Satanology, in particular - that's thrown into this passage that wasn't there in the Hebrew!

IMO, however, it's best to STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES! Let's look at the END of the story:

Revelation 20:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

THIS is what the Millennium is all about! Notice what was said, too: It wasn't "the Devil and Satan which is that original snake"; it's the OPPOSITE! "The original snake is the Devil and Satan!"

"Devil" is the Greek word "Diabolos" which means "one who THROWS THROUGH someone's defenses." It means a SLANDERER!

"Satan" is a Greek TRANSLITERATION, "Satanas," of the Hebrew word "Saataan," spelled "sin-qamets-tav-qamets-nun," which means "Enemy," particularly a "COURTROOM Enemy."

In Satanology, there are two passages of Scripture that are said to show the origins of this devil: Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. And, NEITHER of these passages are about some "angelic creature!" They are about the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, respectively!

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 A pearl:  He did not create it without form and void?  How would that be possible?  Did it become that way?  When?  Why?  What could have happened that caused that? 

Sure, God created the earth without form and void; it was formless and devoid of life, but He still created them PERFECT! As far as the earth could go at the time He made it and called it "earth" ("erets"), it was PERFECT matter. It was just as complex as it could go without God's intervention! Then, God made it BETTER by giving that earth organization and living creatures which could inhabit it! Genesis 1 tells us that God created this earth and its skies IN STAGES!

And, no, the earth didn't "become" without form and void. Some people would like to THINK that it did, but there's no proof or evidence of such a thing happening.

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A pearl:  There was one who was made the full pattern and everything was great, TILL iniquity was found in him.  WONDER what God did about that?  Wonder if it involved others?  Wonder what that means for us?  

Iniquity was found in the king of Tyre.

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A pearl:   And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan.  WE KNOW now who that serpent in the garden was.  

The great dragon of Revelation 12:13 is thrown down to the ground out of the sky and that happens IN THE FUTURE! But, yes, he's ALWAYS been the original serpent!

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A pearl:  a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth

AND NOW we know it did involve others.  A third. 

You don't even know what the "third part of the stars of the sky" are!

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 A pearl:  Sudden destruction upon the earth.  The heavens go black, the earth morns. No man upon the earth.  The world PERISHED, BUT NOT A FULL END.  THIS in NO WAY resembles Noahs flood.  You can bet it will be pointed out all the reasons it "could" fit, but NEVER are the ones that don't.  PERISHED, NO MAN, BLACK SKY, EARTH MOURNING.  

PRAY AND PONDER

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.


 

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, AND THE HEAVENS ABOVE BE BLACK; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

SO HE DID IT.  WE KNOW IT WASN'T NOAHS FLOOD.  WE KNOW IT WAS AFTER 


WHAT WOULD FOLLOW THE HEAVENS ABOVE BEING BLACK?  WELL, LIGHT WOULD NEED TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO BEAR.  IF THE HEAVENS ARE BLACK THERE IS NO SUN, NO STARS, NO MOON.  THEY WOULD NEED TO BE BROUGHT INTO PLAY.  IF THE WHOLE LAND WAS LAND DESOLATE, PLANTS AND ANIMALS WOULD NEED TO BE BROUGHT BACK.  IF THERE IS NO MAN (NOT ONE AND CERTAINLY NOT 8 ADAMIC SOULS) THEY WOULD NEED TO BE BROUGHT IN.  

THE HEAVENS ABOVE BE BLACK.  GETTING AROUND THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE.  AND IF THE SKIES WENT BLACK DURING THE FLOOD OF NOAHS TIME IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ICE.  



Let's read it again, add more of Gods Words.  

 

Jeremiah 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
(Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain):

Jeremiah 4:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

Jeremiah 4:22 For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.


WHAT IS HAPPENING BEFORE THIS STATEMENT IS MADE????????  
 

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

God was mad at the fallen angels but He was a patiently waiting for the ark to be finished, and then it started to rain....NOT REAL SUDDENLY did it come upon the world.  WE have ENOCH PREACHING before Noah's flood happened.  

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Jeremiah 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

Jeremiah 4:30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

Jeremiah 4:31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

 

AND NOW we know what God did.

Wrong. Anyone who uses Jeremiah 4 as some "proof text" for the fall of haSatan destroying some previous earth before the Creation of Genesis 1 is NOT SKILLED in biblical interpretation, and such a person usually starts with the phrase "tohu v'bohu" in Jeremiah 4:23 as "proof" that it mirrors the same phrase in Genesis 1:2. You are perpetuating a falsehood. You didn't start it; I know that, but you're not dispelling the falsehood, either!

Jeremiah 4:23 is part of a prophecy by Yirmeyahuw ("Jeremiah") on behalf of God who gave the Message: The prophecy begins in verse 1 of chapter 1; however, for "brevity," we'll pick up the reading in verse 5 of chapter 4: (Sometime, go through the whole book of Jeremiah in a single sitting, if possible. Read it aloud, preferably in a version of the Bible you will be comfortable reading and you will be able to read as normal, conversational English. It will change your mind for you.)

Jeremiah 4:5-31 (NIV)

5 “Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:

‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’

Cry aloud and say:

‘Gather together!
Let us flee to the fortified cities!’

6 Raise the signal to go to Zion!
Flee for safety without delay!
For I am bringing disaster from the north,
even terrible destruction.”

7 A lion has come out of his lair;
a destroyer of nations has set out.
He has left his place
to lay waste your land.
Your towns will lie in ruins
without inhabitant.

8 So put on sackcloth,
lament and wail,
for the fierce anger of the Lord
has not turned away from us.

9 “In that day,” declares the Lord,
“the king and the officials will lose heart,
the priests will be horrified,
and the prophets will be appalled.”

10 Then I said, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! How completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats!”

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, “A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them.”

13 Look! He advances like the clouds,
his chariots come like a whirlwind,
his horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us! We are ruined!

14 Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?

15 A voice is announcing from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.

16 “Tell this to the nations,
proclaim concerning Jerusalem:

‘A besieging army is coming from a distant land,
raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.
17 They surround her like men guarding a field,
because she has rebelled against me,’ ”

declares the Lord.

18 “Your own conduct and actions
have brought this on you.
This is your punishment.
How bitter it is!
How it pierces to the heart!”

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish!
I writhe in pain.
Oh, the agony of my heart!
My heart pounds within me,
I cannot keep (it) silent.
For I have heard the sound of the trumpet;
I have heard the battle cry.
20 Disaster follows disaster;
the whole land lies in ruins.
In an instant my tents are destroyed,
my shelter in a moment.
21 How long must I see the battle standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 “My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good.”

23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens (the skies),
and their light was gone.

24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking (quavering);
all the hills were swaying (shimmering).

25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.

26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.
27 This is what the Lord says:

“The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.
28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back.”

29 At the sound of horsemen and archers
every town takes to flight.
Some go into the thickets;
some climb up among the rocks.
All the towns are deserted;
no one lives in them.

30 What are you doing, you devastated one?
Why dress yourself in scarlet
and put on jewels of gold?
Why highlight your eyes with makeup?
You adorn yourself in vain.
Your lovers despise you;
they want to kill you.

31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor,
a groan as of one bearing her first child—
the cry of Daughter Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands and saying,
“Alas! I am fainting;
my life is given over to murderers.”

This happened during the lifetime of the Weeping Prophet, Yirmeyahuw. He WITNESSED and EXPERIENCED the invasion from Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, against Yhudah ("Judah"). They came from the north because of the shape of the Fertile Crescent. Rather than go across a barren desert, they went north, west, and then south into the Land of Israel. Thus, they came from Israel's north.

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Are there any other things that point in that direction other than SCIENCE and what we can see with our own eyes.  AFTER all what ever happen to that animal with the tail like a cedar?  (La Brea tar pits will help with that)  We know THOSE animals weren't running around anytime in the last 6000 years.  HOW?   Common sense and science.  

Wrong again. By not understanding the HUGE DEVASTATION of the GLOBAL Flood - a Flood that inundated the WHOLE EARTH - of Noach's time, you just can't understand the degree to which the present earth is different than the earth before the Flood!

Modern evolutionary "Science" is WILLINGLY blind to the truth presented in the Scriptures. They throw out millions and billions of years like counterfeit currency! They're as bad as the democrats throwing money by the millions and billions at the problems they think they can change by glutting them with money, as though money is the answer to all life's problems!

Evolutionists do the same thing with millions and billions of years! They can't change a goo into a zoo without LOTS of time! They IGNORE their own true sciences which tell them that there are LIMITS to mutations that are still viable and procreative! Even when one combines a horse and a donkey into a mule, they CONVENIENTLY FORGET that the mule is STERILE!

Look, according to Genesis, the lifespans of the people who lived before the Flood were about 13 times longer than people live today. If reptiles, who continue to grow in length as long as they live, live 13 times longer than they do today, a 2-foot reptile will grow into a 26-foot reptile! Such is the case of the Johnston's and the Jackson's Chameleons. Those three-horned lizards would become three-horned "dinosaurs!"

Many of the dinosaurs are still extant, just in their smaller, less mature sizes. We call them "lizards" today. Did you know that there are lizards that run on their hind legs? Did you know that there are lizards today that have frills on their necks? Did you know that some lizards today have armor on their backs? Lizards are VERY good at hiding and being secretive to survive. Not all species are known, even today!

Science, falsely so-called, turns a blind eye to all of this in favor of their precious, little theory (which is little more than a hypothesis than a theory), and they DESPERATELY put up walls to protect their nonsense. 

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Pearls found no longer needing Human Explanation but just read as God put forth

Foreknew, predestined, chosen, the world that was perished, the first last-last first, freewill, before in mothers womb I knew you, the minds stirred to pure remembrance about the world that then was perished being overflowed with water, the third heaven, was is and is to come, earth in darkness (like God would have created the earth in darkness, seriously?) created not void and without form, 
that's all I got off the top of my head.  

You would do well to take your own advice.

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, Frits said:

@DeighAnn

They who have the longest stories on Gen.1:1,2 are called followers of the restitution theory, also known as gap-theory.
For us it's wise not to let this theory break into our thoughts and overgrow our mind. I will elucidate that.

1. The theory starts with  assumptions.
2. The theorie can't be read in the Bible, assumption once again is used.
3. But please notice the following!
Let's view the gap-theorie saying: once there was a whole world with birds, seas, land, trees, animals,  and a mankind, created by God but lateron corrupted and totaly destroyed by satan. 
This should mean before time (pre-history) the Lord God already made a mankind which was wipedout, so the Lord God had to start all over again. He had failled! Then creating the earth we read about in Genesis and Adam and Eve, to finally become the human rase he had been longed for so long. But then Adam and Eve were corrupted by satan too and died, so the Lord God failed again. Do you see Ann, that in the meantime the Lord God stands there as a loser. This makes the gap-theorie blasphemy! 
To expose and invalidate the restitution theorie, I'll line up two verses out of King Kames:
"Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth."
"The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands." (Ps.124:8 and 138:8)
The gap-theory indirectly tries to seperate the Lord God from his creation.
They can't say open-faced God is inferior but when he didn't succeed two times, there has to be something wrong about him. He's a nice guye, but what he made is garbage. De facto, it's critic unto our Creator the Lord God. (blasphemy!)
The most wonderfull about the Lord God specialy is his loyalty and endless love towards man.
For the Lord God is able to bring forth "the man of God" from corrupted in sin fallen Adam and Eve, by using forgiveness in the Name of his Son Jesus Christ.

May God bless everyone who reads this.

I have no idea where "that" gap theory came from or the conclusions, but it doesn't resemble what I have from the scriptures and as of yet found no scripture to dispute it and lots and lots of scripture that render it to be the only conclusion possible.   

1st and foremost GOD has never failed or lost anything.  THOSE HE CREATED do all the iniquity.  He stands longsuffering and waiting so that in the very end THOSE WHO TRULY LOVE HIM and His ways will spend eternity dwelling with Him.  God could have created any kind of beings, but He created beings with free will.  They write their own story, they write their own ending.  It all comes from within.  God is waiting to step into the hearts and minds of whomsoever would, as He already is in the hearts and minds of His elect.  And why?  What does He want?   
 

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up.  After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight.  Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.  O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away. Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth: and Thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 

Hosea 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.  Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood. And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness. I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled. Also, O Judah, he hath set an harvest for thee, when I returned the captivity of My people.

 

It didn't start with an "assumption" it started with a verse.  

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

WHEN the LORD THUS says "God Himself FORMED IT, and created it not in vain" and I read that in the simplest form possible, and then I go to Gen 1:2 and am told that is was "And the earth was without form, and void

I realize it is time to PRAY FOR UNDERSTANDING.  

God Himself FORMED IT  -  was without form
He created it not in vain  -  was without form, and void.  

Now I am no genius my any means,  but "was without form" as God is creating doesn't compute.  AND what would be THE POINT???  Why mention the earth without form and void?  The earth WAS ALREADY THERE. He wasn't creating it then was He?  NO,  because there was "darkness was upon the face of the deep".  And what was happening?  And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  So God isn't  FORMING THE EARTH AT THIS TIME at all.  What is happening is HIS SPIRIT is moving upon the face of the waters ALREADY there.   

IN THE DARK.  Sound like anything else we have read??  
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

DID YOU EVER think that this was happening in "darkness" here before??  Me neither.  

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Job 38:9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

Job 38:10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,


Which animal, past or present is this describing?  

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

Job 40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

Job 40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

Now me, tail like a cedar, I know of only one animal God created with a tail like a cedar and it is EXTINCT, died in the ice age. a tiny here a little, there a little, but why is God describing the dinasour? 

 
 

Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus,(rock) and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; 

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

(I'LL just bet this lasted for a long long time, that is my opinion). 

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


And what DOES the VERY NEXT Verse STATE (after Isa 45:18)

Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Once again, no genius here, but WHAT A TIME FOR A DECLARATION FROM GOD!!!  

 

NOW, IF GOD DID NOT WIPE OUT SATAN, WHY WOULD HE WIPE OUT all the souls who however long ago were shouting for joy?  They were the "deceived" ones.   

God loves us. We are His creation. We are His sons.  His children.  NO, he didn't wipe out an entire "batch" of souls so as to start over.  (I think there is a promise made somewhere about this somehow)

The former things are not remembered.  He put us into flesh bodies, (which He repented of, neither here nor there for right now), for us to stand before Him with US having our responsibility for ourselves.  We will have either chosen the Lord or not.  He has given us free will.  Up to us.

Hopefully you can see, I assumed close to nothing.  And there is more.  Quite a bit as a matter of fact.  So please, go check it out yourself.  And please IF EVER you find scripture that you feel is in conflict with this, LET ME KNOW.  I am open to all of Gods Truth and if someday someone can show me scripture that directly refutes it all and answers the questions that would come up because of it, let me know.  


 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Oh, really?? Then why does God's Word say,

Psalm 119:89 (KJV)

 89 For ever, O LORD, thy word IS SETTLED in heaven.

That's the past tense!

 Sorry, I account others with basic common sense to know the Bible doesn't get more words in it every day

 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeah, people are CONSTANTLY trying to read the "deeper treasures" of God's Word instead of just accepting the normal grammatical-historical interpretation of God's Word. It's a FARCE!

 
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 "the letter"  put "the normal grammatical"-historical interpretation of God's Word"

AND why should we NOT STOP growing in the WORD?  Because it is eternal.  

 

Maybe this might help?
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, t here is liberty.

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeah, people are CONSTANTLY trying to read the "deeper treasures" of God's Word instead of just accepting the normal grammatical-historical interpretation of God's Word. It's a FARCE! You're READING INTO God's Word something that was NEVER meant to be interpreted from God's Word! There's a word for this: It's "EISEGESIS" (as opposed to "exegesis"), and it is an ERROR in interpretation! It's allegorical thinking at its worst, even when people like to "pretty it up" by saying it's "spiritual interpretation." (There's that word "spiritual," again!) The bottom line of this kind of interpretation is this: You're PUTTING WORDS IN GOD'S MOUTH, saying He said something He said absolutely NOTHING about! Tell me THAT won't come at a high price in the Judgment!

Pretty sure ADDING AND SUBTRACTING are equally looked upon or are they? 
 

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

 Please tell me what words I put "INTO" Gods mouth.  

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I hear an implication in this quote, but ... water off a duck's back, since it doesn't apply to me.

This was about going by the letter and not the spirit. 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sure, God created the earth without form and void; it was formless and devoid of life, but He still created them PERFECT!

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;


God himself that formed the earth and made it;


He hath established it,


He created it not in vain,


He formed it to be inhabited:


I am the LORD; and there is none else.

 

Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Iniquity was found in the king of Tyre.

Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Tyre -   what does the name mean?  Hint: see above




Do I have it correct that you BELIEVE that this DESCRIPTION IS OF A MAN, like your or I,  that lived upon the earth? 

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD;

Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and
perfect in beauty.

 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.