What is a "soul?"

[etymology]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And yet some of the leading theologians from diverse perspectives have held to it. Names as diverse as Ignatius, Martyr, Irenaeus, Aquinas, Wesley, Lewis, Stott, and Pinnock have held to various views of annihilation; it is not and has never been limited to the SDA. Jesus himself stated quite plainly we should fear him who could destroy both body and soul in hell. You hand out labels like they are candy and without so much as a word of explanation. Unless the practice changes I do not believe you will last long in the forum; people here expect more than wanton and baseless labeling, especially if and when it occurs solely in derision and all the more so when it occurs in non-essentials. 

Then the posts beginning HERE should be read, along with scriptures beginning with Ps. 1:6, 37:20, 92:7; Mt. 10:28b; Jn. 3:16; Rom. 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:26; Phil. 3:19; Gal. 6:8; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jms. 4:12; and Rev. 20:14 & 21:4. Chaff and weeds tossed into a fire eventually cease to exist; those were the images Jesus used. 

Otherwise, the question asked and any judgments made thereof are off-topic to this op. 

lol! Too late. 

I am uncertain as to what you find amusing! I find nothing here remotely amusing at all! I am, however, beginning to find the way of it. 

[etymology]

17 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Do two things for me, Retro. 

1) Do not include me with the others because I do not hold like vies and 2) recall our earlier conversation in which nearly everything you just posted was previously discussed with much agreement. The reason the discussion persists is because of ongoing dissent  with points you and I have already and repeatedly posted. The op is coming to its end because things already posted are being ignored in favor of the protest of unnecessary repetition. Ad nauseam is not an argument for or against anything and so only those unable to further the conversation will persist. Eventually everyone else will depart. 

I could be wrong but @Retrobyter doesn't hold to the doctrine of Annihilation as an eschatological claim extending to the new heavens and the new earth or the lake of fire or the second death. His doctrine appears as a limited demarcation cited in millennial kingdom terms as a measuring barometer. His doctrine seems like Annihilation on face value but I believe is an expression of the condition and meaning of the state of death that is applicable to all men in all time - outside of resurrection.  

Edited December 27, 2020 by etymology
Removed everywhere

[etymology]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

It is amusing that someone would presume to enter the forum and after three days declare what is and isn't heretical and claim not to make baseless claims while making baseless claims. It's also amusing because you're wrong to call annihilationism heretical in light of its history. It's a minority view, but one that is firmly rooted in scripture and held as far back as the ECFs. I don't expect you to find your own digressions amusing. 

This op isn't about annihilation. This op is about the nature of the soul and on that topic wave much agreement. You have been encouraged to stick to the op-topic and post your views on annihilation in any of the recent ops on that subject, at least one of which I have connected you out of courtesy. Go back and re-read you last few posts. What have they to do in answer to the question this op asks? Why the persistent departure? Why the refusal to discuss the op in favor of tangents? 

Evidence says otherwise. 

Would you please let me express my own views and not instruct me as to what I can and cannot say. The term heretical is a perfectly valid term when used to describe the effect of Annihilation as a doctrine. I asked you if you held that view and you gave what you called [not a] commonly asserted view. So whilst this OP is not about annihilation you were party to the transaction. 

You gave a somewhat extended list of what needed to be discussed. The OP is about the soul and the author is engaging with myself and I with him having read some of his comments and visited his website to read more extensively into his meanings. 

I do sincerely hope that things improve without having to guess at every nuance of what is and is not permitted. 

[Retrobyter]

4 minutes ago, etymology said:

I could be wrong but @Retrobyter doesn't hold to the doctrine of Annihilation as an eschatological claim extending to the new heavens and the new earth or the lake of fire or the second death. His doctrine appears as a limited demarcation cited in millennial kingdom terms as a measuring barometer. His doctrine seems like Annihilation on face value but I believe is an expression of the condition and meaning of the state of death that is applicable to all men in all time - outside of resurrection.  

Shalom, etymology.

No, you are not wrong. I don't hold to the doctrine of Annihilation. I only hold to a temporary defeat of life, as described in the Curse of Genesis 3, that the Messiah Yeshua` shall reverse completely over the course of a thousand years, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 cf. Revelation 20:1-21:4.

However, in the Resurrection we are made NEW bodies that not only breathe air, but are able to BLAST air. That's what the word "spiritual," Greek "pneumatikos," means in contrast to the word "psuchikos," meaning "air-breathing" (although "translated" as "natural"). A "spiritual body" is a body capable of "blasting air," able even to provide the "puff" ("nshaamaah") that is capable of giving life to others. 

We can read,

Matthew 10:5-8 (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

Therefore, this is compatible to the mission He has given to His disciples.

We will be bodies no longer able to decay being incorruptible and will not be able to die being immortal. I do not say that they will be indestructible because they will still be material and they will still be human, although more superhuman than merely human. We are given the Tree of Life species for interesting reasons: 

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 

Thus the species provides a variety of fruit flavors and leaves that provide healing. The Greek word for "healing" is therapeia:

2322 therapeia (ther-ap-i'-a). From therapeuoo; attendance (specially, medical, i.e. Cure); figuratively and collectively, domestics
-- healing, household.

We get our word "therepeutic" from this family of Greek words, which relates to the healing and curing of diseases. Thus, at some point in eternity, it might become necessary to use these leaves for healing purposes in each of our future lives. Thus, we may not be indestructible; however, through the Creative power of our Father, who is the Eternal and Omnipotent God, our lives will continue forever.

We don't "go to heaven when we die." I challenge anyone to find those words in Scripture. However, we SHALL live forever on the New Earth with its New Heaven, or rather, its New Sky. The New Jerusalem (Hebrew: Yerushalayim haChadashah) will be our capital city, and there will be twelve rivers that flow from its twelve gates, three on each side of the city's square base, on to the New Earth in the four compass directions.

However, the New Earth isn't made and the New Jerusalem doesn't descend until AFTER the Millennium; yet, we shall be Resurrected at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, when our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah of God returns and BEGINS to reign from the current Jerusalem, which He shall improve during the beginning of His reign. He won't just reign for a thousand years; according to Gavri'el (Gabriel) talking to Miryam ("Mary"), He shall reign FOREVER. The Millennium is just the FIRST 1,000 years of His reign. However, during the Millennium, He shall be subduing His enemies, until He is FINALLY the King of ALL kings and the Lord of ALL lords, the WORLDWIDE EMPEROR. At the END of the Millennium will occur the Global Fire, the Resurrection of the Unjust, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the re-making of the Earth into the New Earth, with the descent of the New Jerusalem. It's at the Great White Throne Judgment and the consignment of the Unjust to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur that death is finally and completely defeated.

Sorry for rambling on, but it's important to place one's view within the framework of the Bible's prophesied events.

[Frits]

8 hours ago, etymology said:

May I also ask you if you hold to Annihilationism? 

Hi etymology,

Good question etymology, this clarifies a few things.

"Annihilationism", I didn't know the term.  I knew that the 7DA adheres to this reprehensible teaching, as well as the JW.
Now this beast has a name!

 

God bless you bro.

[Frits]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

the Messiah of God returns and BEGINS to reign from the current Jerusalem

@Retrobyter,

I know that you yourself already remarked that you were rambling on, but would you like to test your conception of things concerning the current Jerusalem against Acts 1:11

"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Act.1:11)

At the end of the text it says, "this same Jesus..taken up..into heaven, shall come in like manner". It doesn't say in this place, it says "in like manner".

God bless.

[etymology]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, etymology.

No, you are not wrong. I don't hold to the doctrine of Annihilation. I only hold to a temporary defeat of life, as described in the Curse of Genesis 3, that the Messiah Yeshua` shall reverse completely over the course of a thousand years, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 cf. Revelation 20:1-21:4.

However, in the Resurrection we are made NEW bodies that not only breathe air, but are able to BLAST air. That's what the word "spiritual," Greek "pneumatikos," means in contrast to the word "psuchikos," meaning "air-breathing" (although "translated" as "natural"). A "spiritual body" is a body capable of "blasting air," able even to provide the "puff" ("nshaamaah") that is capable of giving life to others. 

We can read,

Matthew 10:5-8 (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

Therefore, this is compatible to the mission He has given to His disciples.

We will be bodies no longer able to decay being incorruptible and will not be able to die being immortal. I do not say that they will be indestructible because they will still be material and they will still be human, although more superhuman than merely human. We are given the Tree of Life species for interesting reasons: 

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 

Thus the species provides a variety of fruit flavors and leaves that provide healing. The Greek word for "healing" is therapeia:

2322 therapeia (ther-ap-i'-a). From therapeuoo; attendance (specially, medical, i.e. Cure); figuratively and collectively, domestics
-- healing, household.

We get our word "therepeutic" from this family of Greek words, which relates to the healing and curing of diseases. Thus, at some point in eternity, it might become necessary to use these leaves for healing purposes in each of our future lives. Thus, we may not be indestructible; however, through the Creative power of our Father, who is the Eternal and Omnipotent God, our lives will continue forever.

We don't "go to heaven when we die." I challenge anyone to find those words in Scripture. However, we SHALL live forever on the New Earth with its New Heaven, or rather, its New Sky. The New Jerusalem (Hebrew: Yerushalayim haChadashah) will be our capital city, and there will be twelve rivers that flow from its twelve gates, three on each side of the city's square base, on to the New Earth in the four compass directions.

However, the New Earth isn't made and the New Jerusalem doesn't descend until AFTER the Millennium; yet, we shall be Resurrected at the BEGINNING of the Millennium, when our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah of God returns and BEGINS to reign from the current Jerusalem, which He shall improve during the beginning of His reign. He won't just reign for a thousand years; according to Gavri'el (Gabriel) talking to Miryam ("Mary"), He shall reign FOREVER. The Millennium is just the FIRST 1,000 years of His reign. However, during the Millennium, He shall be subduing His enemies, until He is FINALLY the King of ALL kings and the Lord of ALL lords, the WORLDWIDE EMPEROR. At the END of the Millennium will occur the Global Fire, the Resurrection of the Unjust, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the re-making of the Earth into the New Earth, with the descent of the New Jerusalem. It's at the Great White Throne Judgment and the consignment of the Unjust to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur that death is finally and completely defeated.

Sorry for rambling on, but it's important to place one's view within the framework of the Bible's prophesied events.

Well I am glad that I was not wrong.

Edited December 27, 2020 by etymology

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Frits said:

Hi etymology,

Good question etymology, this clarifies a few things.

"Annihilationism", I didn't know the term.  I knew that the 7DA adheres to this reprehensible teaching, as well as the JW.
Now this beast has a name!

 

God bless you bro.

Hello again Frits, I trust you and your family had a nice holiday.

Would you mind telling me why you have such a strong feeling about the concept of what I will call the “2nd death” v eternal punishment?

Thanks and look forward to your thoughts! Charlie 

[DignifiedResponse]

State of the Dead & Annihilation Hellfire Non-SDA Quotes.pdf

3 hours ago, Frits said:

Hi etymology,

Good question etymology, this clarifies a few things.

"Annihilationism", I didn't know the term.  I knew that the 7DA adheres to this reprehensible teaching, as well as the JW.
Now this beast has a name!

 

God bless you bro.

The teaching is found in scripture, and many over all ages have taught it (Luther, Tyndale, etc), for instance, see the attached file.

Or this link - https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/martin-luther-and-william-tyndale-on-the-state-of-the-dead.115144/#post-2652934

Or if you need me to quote any of it outright here, I can.

 

 

State of the Dead & Annihilation Hellfire Non-SDA Quotes.pdf

Edited December 27, 2020 by DignifiedResponse

[David1701]

17 hours ago, Alive said:

What it comes down to is this. Hopefully, I can articulate it. Starting with "we have this treasure in earthen vessels". Yes of course--that treasure is Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Being absent from what body? This present body--correct?

None of these scriptures say that there won't be a body.

Look at it this way for a moment. When a believer dies and goes to the dirt at some point in earthly time the resurrection takes place and he gets his new body--incorruptible, but in the heavely realm where yesterday and today is the same (God's perspective-the heavenly perspective) that saint is there. To him no time has passed. To be absent from the old body is to be present with the Lord.

In the grave the dead know nothing--but are raised and know. Everything fits when we see from God's perspective.

We can't fit these things into Christ and His experience because He isn't capable of ever not knowing as He is God. His experience is unique.

The issue being discussed is whether or not our soul/spirit leaves our physical body at death.  Your post does not address the issue but attempts to make "absent from the body" refer merely to being absent from the pre-resurrection state of the body, rather than what the text actually states, which is, straightforwardly, to be absent from the body.

To be absent from the body, clearly means just that - to be away from the physical body.   This is obviously after death and before the resurrection.

In the grave the dead know nothing, because it is the physical body that is in the grave, not the soul/spirit.

Your post comes across as a rather desperate attempt to obfuscate.

Edited December 27, 2020 by David1701