What is a "soul?"

[Charlie744]

46 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Thanks JohnD for the pic... it easily explains those (most) folks that believe there are 3 separate parts... 

But my thoughts are that there are only 2 parts; God took the earth and breathed into this “formed earth” and THIS became a living being / soul. A + B = C. 

In your depiction above, is your spirit section (yellow) the same as the breath from God?

This most likely will be a very bad illustration, and will lack in many ways, but just to TRY and draw some way we might both think of this very difficult concept— If you take milk and add chocolate you will get chocolate milk. Take either away and you just have two separate components. If I correctly apply the same components to your concept (and I am not sure I will succeed), you would combine the two ingredients and come up with chocolate milk — but take one or even both of the two ingredients away and you still have a soul... 

I don’t know if this makes the discussion worse or not... look forward to your response, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

27 minutes ago, JohnD said:

The scriptures declare we are body, soul, spirit.

God is spirit. Apparently so are the angels.

Man was created in a physical form on this physical

stage between two eternal destinies.

When we die, our bodies cease functioning and decay to the basic elements.

Part of us (the soul) ceases to exist.

Part of us (the spirit) goes to either Sheol or heaven. ← both of which

are temporary until the new heaven-earth replaces the old order and 

the lake of fire is where death and Sheol are cast.

The soul is apparently a buffer between the two realities that we belong to

(physical and spiritual). The soul has aspects / traits of both and are at times

equated with each the physical body and the spirit.

In the resurrection both are infused into a spirit body.

Thank you... and as I mentioned, I believe that you are certainly in the majority here!

My thoughts, we are not widely accepted, day the two components come together and cause a Living Soul. The Soul can not exist when the two are separated. But when they are separated, our death, the body returns to the ground, and the Spirit or the breath from God returns to Him. 

At His second coming, those who died in Christ will be once again brought together with His Spirit, only this time we will be an immortal Soul. 

Those not in Christ will also be brought back but will not be an immortal Soul. They will not be able “be” in His presence and will he destroyed. Again, I understand my views are not in the mainstream, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you... and as I mentioned, I believe that you are certainly in the majority here!

My thoughts, we are not widely accepted, day the two components come together and cause a Living Soul. The Soul can not exist when the two are separated. But when they are separated, our death, the body returns to the ground, and the Spirit or the breath from God returns to Him. 

At His second coming, those who died in Christ will be once again brought together with His Spirit, only this time we will be an immortal Soul. 

Those not in Christ will also be brought back but will not be an immortal Soul. They will not be able “be” in His presence and will he destroyed. Again, I understand my views are not in the mainstream, Charlie 

JohnD, I just wanted to add or comment on my earlier response to Retrobyter... and perhaps it may be something to consider.

God created man by taking the earth, forming it and then He breathed into it and this became a living soul / being. Some or perhaps most feel this “breathing” means placing air into man. Also, many or most believe there are 3 parts to us: body, Spirit and soul. 

My thoughts (opinion) is hopefully based on the earliest mention of man’s creation in Genesis (Law of first mention). So if I am able to interpret man’s creation here in Genesis I should have no reason to consider later verses in either the OT or the NT that discusses man’s creation or his parts, because the definition of created man can not change as we move through the Scriptures. That doesn’t mean we are not going to interpret a different understanding or belief in man’s components (sorry about that), but we should not add or subtract from the definition of man in its first mention no matter how convinced we might be with a later verse (again, it is necessary we are sure of the first mention).

So, IF I understand the creation of man correctly, this living soul resides in Eden and has access to God. He also has this “type of covering or angelic like shroud (?) around Him. This is something he alone has- no animal has this covering surrounding them. As Retrobyter has properly mentioned, there is no mention in Genesis that His Breathing into man was other than air. But it is my belief that this had to include at least two components; air that brought us life, and His Spirit or Holiness or His Word (I am using these 3 as though they are essentially the same power or attribute given to us from God). 

When Adam sinned, this inner Holiness or attribute was immediately lost or taken away. God of course can not be in the presence of now this man who has lost his Holiness- God would now have to clothed man in a truly physical manner and remove him from His presence (Eden). And He tells man he will experience death.

So man still had his body, he still has his breath of life given by God, but He definitely lost something that he HAD to receive at the time of his creation... when God breathed into Adam. But Adam of course did not physically die, but he did Spiritually! 

The only way for man to get back into his presence with God would be to restore that inner attribute or the Holiness that was lost due to his disobedience. For me, this is not a “soul”. This is not something that lives on and on as a third separate component from man’s creation. This was a gift from God, not given to animals NOR the angels!! And without going too far off the subject I also believe this is a significant reason why Lucifer tempted Eve... he was so envious and jealous that God would bestow such a wonderful attribute on these new creatures.. (made in His image), when he (Lucifer) was the most impressive being made by God- and Lucifer was NOT made in His image. This was just unacceptable! He HAD to corrupt this new creature made above him. And he succeeded. 

But God had a Plan of Salvation to restore man. The only way man could be restored to his original state (pre-Lucifer if you will), is to bring this “Holiness or God’s Attribute / Word) back into Him. Man would still be the sum of the body and God’s Breathe but not His Holiness. He would indeed die. His Plan was for The Messiah to die on the Cross for ALL of man’s sin. If we, individually accepted His death and resurrection and placed our faith in Him, He would send His Holy Spirit to come into each one of us and restore that “lost Holiness/ Word / Attribute). That is the missing or lost component from our creation. 

But we will never see Eden on this side of His second coming. For those that have died in Christ or our alive at the time of His second coming will receive that lost Spirit / Holiness / Word (however one likes to think of it), and they will once again be complete I’m His eyes. We will then be able to be in His presence. All others have no opportunity or ability to acquire this ... they will die a second death never to ‘be’ again! 

Although I have NOT done this and I know I certainly should have by now (my only excuse is my desire to finish Daniel), would be to return to all the verses in Scripture and when there is a reference to what HAS been interpreted as a separate “soul”, to look at these verses from THIS point of view — not a separate entity but a distinct and separate “Attribute, a Holy Attribute’ where we once had within us from God’s Own Mouth”!

Thanks, Charlie 

 

[JohnD]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (AV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I am not a Greek scholar or grammarian, but I know when articles appear in the Greek before nouns it is to distinguish them from the other nouns.

 

Each of the highlighted is distinguished by articles:

 

to pneuma

 

kai

 

e psuche

 

kai

 

to soma

 

which the text clearly indicates is "the whole of you" in the Greek.

 

You may go back to an earlier revelation in the Hebrew and impose your

own personal interpretation on the text "body / soul + nothing else..."

or "body + nothing else..."

 

To which I respond, why ignore / reject the full revelation from God for

one's personal preference for an earlier revelation? Are you not making a

case for the Noahites?

 

Why go with Moses or Jesus when God clearly made a covenant with Noah?

 

You have a pet interpretation of scripture that ignores the fact that all the passages you

cite are partial revelation that [should] contribute to the overall interpretation / understanding

to have the complete revelation on this or any other given subject.

 

You are free to believe what you want. Everyone is. But that belief does not make it true.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, gentlemen.

Please, be civil on this matter. NO ONE has the ultimate understanding on this issue. HOWEVER, I would like to point out now that, like the word "soul" coming from "nefesh," you've missed the fact that "spirit" comes from the Hebrew word "ruwach":

Again, I'll resort to a simple definition provided by Strong's (since it is a common resource):

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible [palpable] (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

And, like "nefesh" stemming from its root word "naafash," "ruwach" stems from the verb form "ruwach" (with the accent on the final syllable) which means:

7306 ruwach (roo-akh'). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy)
-- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

This is translated directly into Greek as "pneuma":

4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah). From pneoo; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare psuchee.

And, if we go back to its origin, which is also a verb, we find:

4154 pneoo (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze
-- blow. Compare psuchoo.

(We seldom hear "breeze" as a verb, i.e., "to breeze"; we normally only hear of it as a noun these days, and therefore, we might need to add the words "to generate a" to "breeze.")

And, there are two VERY IMPORTANT things to remember here:

First, Yeshua` NEVER said He was God! He usually addressed Himself as "the Son of man"; however, on occasion (usually prompted by others, including demons), He called Himself "the Son of God." 

When He once said, "I and my Father (God) are one," this is the same terminology as is found in a man and his wife becoming one flesh." It simply means that THEY WERE ON THE SAME PAGE when it came to their wills and their thoughts! It does NOT mean that they were the same Person anymore than a man and his wife are the same person. God, Yeshua`s Father, and Yeshua` are not literally one and the same Person, or Yeshua` would be described clinically as having schizophrenia, in talking to Himself! He quite often found the time and the solitude to talk to God, His Father! They are TWO SEPARATE PERSONS! (If one would add "in the Godhead" to make himself or herself feel better, that's fine, AS LONG AS one remembers that they are STILL  TWO SEPARATE PERSONS!)

Second, Yeshua` Himself told the woman of Shomron ("Samaria"),

John 4:24 (KJV)

24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

And, if we follow the above definition, He is simply saying that God is a WIND! a CURRENT OF AIR! a BREATH! a BLAST of air!

Think of Yeshua` saying "God is a Wind: and they who prostrate themselves to Him must do so in breath and in truth!" In other words, saying it, and DOING it! The Hebrew (or Aramaic) also adds to "in breath" the thought of "to anticipate; enjoy!" This suggests that one should ANTICIPATE God's presence, His "shekinah," in prayer and ENJOY His company!

So, likewise, when we read,

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

we get the same message:

Greek:

Pros Thessalonikeis A 5:23

23 Autos de ho Theos tees eireenees hagiasai humas holoteleis, kai holokleeron humoon to pneuma kai hee psuchee kai to sooma amemptoos en tee parousia tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou teereetheiee.

23 Autos = 23 Himself
de = but
ho = the
Theos = God
tees = of-the
eireenees = peace
hagiasai = make holy
humas = you (plural)
holoteleis, = completely,
kai = and/also
holokleeron = entirely
humoon = of-you/your (plural)
to = the
pneuma = wind/breath
kai = and
hee = the
psuchee = air-breathing-creature
kai = and
to = the
sooma = body
amemptoos = faultless
en = in
tee = the
parousia = arrival
tou = of-the
Kuriou = Master
heemoon = of-us/our (plural)
Ieesou = of-Yeshua`
Christou = Messiah
teereetheiee. = may-be-guarded.

23 Himself but the God of-the peace make holy you (plural) completely, and/also entirely of-you/your (plural) the wind/breath and the air-breathing-creature and/also the body faultless in the arrival of-the Master of-us/our (plural) of-Yeshua` Messiah may-be-guarded.

Putting it in a slightly better English word order,

23 But, the God of [the] peace make you completely holy, and may your wind/breath and your air-breathing creature and your body be guarded faultless in the arrival of our Master Yeshua` Messiah.

There's nothing in the text to suggest that these are three parts of a human person. To the contrary, they show a progression. What one says, what one does as long as one is alive, and how he or she is remembered after he or she has died are all three to be guarded faultless in the Messiah Yeshua`s arrival.

Just something to ponder and consider in your quest for biblical understanding.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Who are you talking about, Retrobyter?

Shalom, Josheb.

I'm talking about anyone who misses the fact that "spirit" means a "wind." If you've added some personification to that "wind," then you've added to the Scriptures.

No, the fact of the matter is this: God is a WIND and as such, He is more than the physical because that means that He is the FORCE behind the movement of air. More importantly, He is also the WILL behind the movement of air! He is NOT just a "Force" like in the Star Wars movies. God (Yeshua`s Father and our Father) IS a Person!

The wind is a FORCEFUL blowing of air, a CURRENT of air! (This is also why it is ridiculous to say that the "Spirit hovered," as some versions render Genesis 1:2. Since when have you ever known a "wind" to "hover?!")

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

And what can you tell us about "nišmaṯ ḥayyîm," and "lənep̄eš ḥayyāh"?

The words "nishmat chayyiym" literally mean a "living puff," or more technically, the "puff of-living-[things]." It's the sharp PULSE of air that "jump-starts" the cycle of intake and outflow of air in the lungs of any breathing creature.

The words "l-nefesh chayyaah" mean "to/for-an-air-breathing-creature living." Remember that "nefesh" has the root of "naafash," meaning "to breathe." The "l-" (lamed) prefix is the preposition "to" or "for." "Chayyaah" is the feminine singular form of "chayyiym"; so, it, too, can be rendered "of-a-living-[thing]." Feminine nouns in Hebrew are more likely to be used for abstract thoughts.

[JohnD]

Since my responses apparently invoke a personal animosity in the OP

that the merits of the posts in this thread (between us) can not adequately

prevail... I am beginning my own thread on the subject.

Be blessed.

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, rhomphaeam said:

And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Hush, be still." And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm.

What power did Jesus rebuke? 

Shalom, Rhomphaeam.

Yeshua` rebuked the atmosphereic conditions of a storm. Do you ever look up the Greek or the Hebrew of a passage?

Here's the Greek of Mark 4:39:

Kata Markon 4:39

39 Kai diegertheis epitimeesen too anemoo kai eipen tee thalassee,

"Sioopa, pefimooso!"

Kai ekopasen ho anemos, kai egeneto galeenee megalee.

39 Kai = 39 And/Also
diegertheis = having-been-awoken
epitimeesen = He-bawled-out
too = the
anemoo = wind
kai = and
eipen = He-said
tee = to-the
thalassee, = sea/lake,
"Sioopa, = "Silence,
pefimooso!" = be-quiet!"
Kai = And/Also
ekopasen = died-down
ho = the
anemos, = wind,
kai = and/also
egeneto = there-became
galeenee = a-calm
megalee. = great.

So, the word for "wind" here is "anemos," not "pneuma."

I think the way that we've used these words to create new words might be a simple way to see the difference: Our word "anemometer" comes from "anemos." This tool measures the wind SPEED. Our words "pneumatic gauge" come from "pneuma." This gauge measures air PRESSURE!

BTW, the words He actually used were probably, "Haas! L-hiraaga`!" which is Hebrew/Aramaic for "Hush! Relax!"

Edited November 26, 2020 by Retrobyter
forgot to say "peace!"

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Does it mean "spirit"? Do we have the puff of living things, or are we a/the puff of living things? Are animals also puff of living things or do they have a puff of living things?

If I understand correctly, then "lənep̄eš ḥayyāh" means "air breathing living thing." Does it mean "soul"? Do we have, or are we air-breathing living creatures? In other words, do the air breathing living creatures have air breathing living creatures? Are animals also "lənep̄eš ḥayyāh"? 

 

Thx

 

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Does it mean "spirit"? Do we have the puff of living things, or are we a/the puff of living things? Are animals also puff of living things or do they have a puff of living things?

Shalom, Josheb.

I believe that the correct answer to those questions are ...

No. A "nishmat," a "puff," is not a whole "ruwach," a "wind." However, both words are technically impersonal movements of air.

We HAVE the "puff of living things" the moment we breathe our first breath, although we have been acquiring oxygen from our mothers before that moment for our first 40 weeks since conception. We give up our last breath back to God who gave it the moment we die.

We ARE "air-breathing creatures" - "souls" -  from our first breath to our last, and we WILL BE AGAIN in the Resurrection! And, THAT is the time we will be "immortal souls!"

Likewise, animals HAVE "the puff of living things" as long as they ARE "air-breathing creatures," too! And, they, too, as a part of the "Creation that groaneth," anticipate a resurrection in the New Creation of the New Earth, when God makes all things new.

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

If I understand correctly, then "lənep̄eš ḥayyāh" means "air breathing living thing." Does it mean "soul"? Do we have, or are we air-breathing living creatures? In other words, do the air breathing living creatures have air breathing living creatures? Are animals also "lənep̄eš ḥayyāh"? 

Thx

Well, it was INTERPRETED as "soul" when the Scriptures were translated from Hebrew into English, but a LOT of things have been done inappropriately to the words "spirit" and "soul" because of unclear definitions of these "English" words! We ARE "air-breathing, living creatures" which was INTERPRETED as "living souls," and IN THAT SENSE, we ARE "souls." However, when we "breathe our last breath," we CEASE being "souls" ... temporarily! In the Resurrection, "in that great gettin'-up morning," we shall be "air-breathing, living creatures," "living souls," again!

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, JohnD said:

Since my responses apparently invoke a personal animosity in the OP

that the merits of the posts in this thread (between us) can not adequately

prevail... I am beginning my own thread on the subject.

Be blessed.

Shalom, JohnD.

No personal animosity here, bro', but feel free to do as you wish and feel necessary. I'm just saying that there are two worlds in the Christian community: the world of biblical understanding, and the world of theology. The two should be in harmony, but as in all things that human beings touch, they are not. The world of theology, down through the centuries, has become corrupted and no longer reflects accurate, biblical understanding.