What is a "soul?"

[Your closest friendnt]

17 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I would say so! God breathed His Holy Spirit into Adam.... and it was lost and he lost his presence with God in the Garden. God did not breath anything into the animals, they die and that is it for them. They will have no need or purpose to be resurrected at the end of time for God to see if this one or that one had accepted Him as their Lord and brought His Holy Spirit into them while they were given the opportunity. 

God does not do anything without a perfect reason..... He purposely gave us His definition for how He created Adam and how differently He created everything else. 

My understanding is that this 6,000 year journey of ours is to restore this precious gift of His Holy Spirit back into us and once again, be with Him forever - full circle.

He created us with His Holy Spirit, we gave it up by sinning, He established a Plan to restore it, and are given an option - believe in Him or die the second death where there is no return. 

Just my thoughts, Charlie and I would welcome your (anyone's) comments / beliefs - pro or con.

Thank you, just to let you know that my post exist only in your quote as I delete it, at the same time you were posting. 

*but there are some issues that make a good discussion in your posting. 

**but I notice that even my post once existed in its original state, and is not to be found in its original state but it can be found and continues to exist in the quote. 

Is it the same with us? Is it something similar? 

Even though the time will come that we cannot be found in the original form in the flesh, we still continue to live in the Spirit Form. We are the same in the Spirit form as we were when we were alive in the body.

We always have a "copy of us" that lives inside of us that never dies. 

PS

The trees also breath to stay alive. Is that something!!

Edited March 2, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Charlie744]

22 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you, just to let you know that my post exist only in your quote as I delete it, at the same time you were posting. 

*but there are some issues that make a good discussion in your posting. 

**but I notice that even my post once existed in its original state, and is not to be found in its original state but it can be found and continues to exist in the quote. 

Is it the same with us? Is it something similar? 

Even though the time will come that we cannot be found in the original form in the flesh, we still continue to live in the Spirit Form. We are the same in the Spirit form as we were when we were alive in the body.

We always have a "copy of us" that lives inside of us that never dies. 

PS

The trees also breath to stay alive. Is that something!!

Thank you for your thoughts... they are always interesting to read and think about! 

I am not sure I understand why we (our spirit- not His Holy Spirit given to us by God and where we lost it by sinning), our “human spirit or awareness or consciousness” would exist after death. I don’t see any separation or separate parts of man - the physical body and all the “software” if you will, are not separate but a complete human being. As Solomon and many others in the Scriptures have stated, “the dead know nothing” - they have nothing more to do under the sun. 

The second part of HIS creation of man was / is not this “human spirit or consciousness”, but WAS the Holy Spirit HE breathed into Adam. 

When we are all resurrected at the end times will be the same person as when we die- the physical body WITH our “consciousness or human spirit- whatever you or we might call it”. This resurrected person will then be restored with HIS Holy Spirit once again or be destroyed forever.

What do you think? Thank you again, Charlie 

[Whyme]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Whyme.

No, the "soul" is the OUTER man! The "soul" is the "nefesh" in Hebrew; it means an "air-breathing creature!" What part of you (to use your terminology) "breathes air?"

The air we breathe is symbolic of spiritual air that is everlasting and thus real, while the  physical is merely a symbol.

[Frits]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

As Solomon and many others in the Scriptures have stated, “the dead know nothing” - they have nothing more to do under the sun.

My brother Charlie,

Salomon indeed wrote, "the dead know nothing". (Pred.9:5)
But should we attach great importance to that?
May we use this one statement of the old king to make it a doctrine?  I do not think so!
And why are we absolutely not allowed to do that?

For various reasons, eg because Solomon was not always led by the Holy Spirit, neither in his life course, nor in this statement!
Consider what Solomon did in 1Kings 11:5-7

5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.  (!!!!!)
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.  (!!!!!)
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.  (!!!!!)

Besides, Solomon had no clear understanding of the things of the Kingdom of heaven!
How should he have had that?  After all, the full truth of God was only brought by the Lord Jesus, not by someone in the Old Testament!
Solomon had not been sealed with the Holy Ghost, it had not been Pentecost yet, and he had not His knowledge.

It follows that there is a great contradiction between the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and the words of the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus and His apostles make it clear to us in many places in the Bible that man because of his soul and spirit ('the man of the heart') constantly participates and keeps a part in the invisible world of the spirits.
To this end, the Lord Jesus gave us, among other things, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, in Luke 16.
After their death, these two people still know everything.  Even Abraham appeals to the memory of the dead "rich man" when he says:

'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (Lk.16:25)

So there is demonstrable consciousness after death, in both the believing person and the unbelieving person.
So Solomon was wrong in Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Frits

[Whyme]

David did evil as well. All have sinned. 

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for your thoughts... they are always interesting to read and think about! 

I am not sure I understand why we (our spirit- not His Holy Spirit given to us by God and where we lost it by sinning), our “human spirit or awareness or consciousness” would exist after death. I don’t see any separation or separate parts of man - the physical body and all the “software” if you will, are not separate but a complete human being. As Solomon and many others in the Scriptures have stated, “the dead know nothing” - they have nothing more to do under the sun. 

The second part of HIS creation of man was / is not this “human spirit or consciousness”, but WAS the Holy Spirit HE breathed into Adam. 

When we are all resurrected at the end times will be the same person as when we die 

Hello brother, to get things with clarity it needs to walk step by step, instant of thinking about the end and try to fit everything within that conclusion. 

I need to start some place and it has to be with things you understand and you can relate with on your own, and with the help of Jesus Christ as he sees fit to guide you in these matters. At times he leave us on our own and that how it has to be. 

We need to look why Jesus Christ had chosen the Greeks and the Romans to be the heirs of the Gospel.

Those Nations they did not have the scriptures and actually they had their own religion which it was deferent from the religions of other Nations. 

And it was not just about polytheism it was their understanding of spiritual matters. 

One example is just a short time before the Cross when the disciples informed Jesus that a group of Ethnic Greeks is seeking to see you, Jesus Christ reacted with the words " my time has come. It is as if Jesus Christ was waiting for that moment. 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Frits said:

My brother Charlie,

Salomon indeed wrote, "the dead know nothing". (Pred.9:5)
But should we attach great importance to that?
May we use this one statement of the old king to make it a doctrine?  I do not think so!
And why are we absolutely not allowed to do that?

Thanks for responding and offering some of your thoughts on this! Fritz, there are a couple of ways I might try and respond to this:

1) I did mention that "Solomon AND MANY OTHERS" in the Scriptures have spoken on death being "as sleep".... and this would include Jesus Himself. He specifically told His disciples that Lazarus was not dead by asleep.... The Scriptures are not silent on this subject and, in my opinion, quite clear.... (once again, my opinion).

2) I am going to have to insist that YOU LEAVE SOLOMON ALONE. I am sure you know how difficult it must have been to follow such a great king as his father David - sort of a middle child type of thing.... . But seriously, this same king who failed in many ways was given a significant amount of space within God's Scriptures to write down... do you think God made a mistake?  He was THE MOST INTELLIGENT MAN WITH WISDOM THAT HAD AND MOST LIKELY WOULD EVER EXIST - AND THIS WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD HIMSELF. God certainly wanted him to put all of the wisdom FROM GOD to us for our benefit and salvation. 

And I don't think we should confuse his wisdom with his righteousness... despite all he was given in intelligence, it and ANY OTHER gift from God (tremendous athleticism, etc.,) will not get one into heaven.... God simply used Solomon as He had done with almost all of the other actors in the Bible... they all came from lowly backgrounds and were selected by God for His purpose.... Solomon's writings were given to us by God.

3) So my selection of Solomon was just that... one of many found in the Scriptures and you are so right when you say it is we should not build doctrine or our interpretations on a single verse in the Bible.

 

1 hour ago, Frits said:

For various reasons, eg because Solomon was not always led by the Holy Spirit, neither in his life course, nor in this statement!
Consider what Solomon did in 1Kings 11:5-7

5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.  (!!!!!)
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.  (!!!!!)
7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.  (!!!!!)

Fritz, you are correct that Solomon was not the best or even good example of a righteous man. But just like Moses who killed a man, God selected him to do His work - whether in a writing or in action. But as you know, no one is good, no one. Also, Moses or Jeremiah, or Daniel or Abel, etc., --- where they led by the Holy Spirit? I don't know your thoughts on this and do not want to speak for you but I would be certain you do not believe that all people born before Pentecost, who were not given the opportunity to accept the Holy Spirit will not be in heaven with God...

 

1 hour ago, Frits said:

 

Besides, Solomon had no clear understanding of the things of the Kingdom of heaven!
How should he have had that?  After all, the full truth of God was only brought by the Lord Jesus, not by someone in the Old Testament!
Solomon had not been sealed with the Holy Ghost, it had not been Pentecost yet, and he had not His knowledge.

Fritz, I am not sure I understand these comments... sorry! I do not believe in any kind of way that God's Word in the OT are NOT HOLY and GOD INSPIRED. They are His Words sent to us through many.... for our understanding. I don't believe you are saying that Genesis and Daniel and Jeremiah and the Torah are either NOT TRUTH, PARTIAL TRUTH OR ALMOST ALL TRUTH. They include His 10 commandments, the story of His creation and on and on..... 

Man is the one who has determined to label HIS WORD (Genesis to Revelation) as OT and NT. We may use this to quickly understand when a certain book was written - whether it was before or after the Cross, but EVERY WORD within the 66 books were conceived and given to us directly from God Himself. And not only did Jesus quote from the OT - especially since there was no NT but so much of the NT is taken from the OT verses. Jesus spent 3 years instructed Paul in the desert of how the Scriptures wrote about HIM......

 

1 hour ago, Frits said:

It follows that there is a great contradiction between the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes 9:5 and the words of the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus and His apostles make it clear to us in many places in the Bible that man because of his soul and spirit ('the man of the heart') constantly participates and keeps a part in the invisible world of the spirits.
To this end, the Lord Jesus gave us, among other things, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, in Luke 16.
After their death, these two people still know everything.  Even Abraham appeals to the memory of the dead "rich man" when he says:

'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (Lk.16:25)

First, there can NOT be any contradiction from ANY verse in the Bible... this is one of the most wonderful facts about the Scriptures. These books were written over 1500 years, by over 40 authors, during very different times and powers, in different languages, and on and on, YET, God has ensure us there are NO contradictions or errors or mistakes at any time, in any verse, etc. So, if we (man) believes there is an error or contradiction then that must tell us WE have a problem and that WE must go back to these verses that appear to contradict each other. What good is a book or a rule of law or a standard that has flaws or contradictions within it? 

If we take a particular subject on say what happens to us after death we must try and identify ALL OR ANY of HIS WORDS found in HIS SCRIPTURES that focus on this issue. If there are 10 or 20 or as little as 5 they ALL MUST SPEAK THE SAME TRUTH (OT AND NT - NO DIFFERENCE BEFORE OR AFTER THE CROSS). When we THINK there is a contradiction that is when we drill down and challenge our interpretations.... but this is very hard to do when and if one has already incorporated their / this particular interpretation in their overall theology. This is done by ALL and this causes disagreements, confusion, all the different denominations, even anger and murder (see Fox's book of Martyrs).

Secondly, and here is a perfect example where you select the PARABLE of Lazarus as support for the continuation or awareness of man after death. And I certainly understand that so many people would confirm your understanding. But I believe this is not a parable about life after death since it does contradict the many verses in the Scriptures that speak about "soul sleep" (as it has been labeled), but that there is NO opportunity for anyone to change their position after death... for us, it means that had we failed to accept Jesus and receive His Holy Spirit there would be no opportunity to correct that after death. 

This is also JUST ONE of the serious blashemies promoted by the RCC (little horn) where they contend we can: 

1) pray to the dead,

2) pray for the dead,

3) try and get them promoted from purgatory to heaven (coach to 1st class .. I guess).

4) have the dead pray for us,

5) the dead are being tortured right now as we speak.... horrible torture of fire that will not go out, vicious animals and fallen angels tearing us apart over and over again, NO CABLE TV...... 

All of these and more have been promoted by the RCC over the past 1ooo years or so for the purpose of gaining control, power and money over man. So, I personally do not subscribe this Lazarus is alive and still burning. Remember the other REAL Lazarus who was actually raised from the dead by Jesus? Now that was a real event and not a parable.... and not only was his clothes and hair and skin without any burn marks, but he had absolutely nothing to say or offer about his death experience during those 4 days..... In fact, and I am not sure what Gospel it is written in but I am sure it tells us that this Lazarus thanked Jesus for the 4 days of rest in the grave..... apparently, he was tired of fighting with Mary and Martha over what to have for dinner when Jesus arrived... something like that... this is why we read in the Scriptures where Jesus Himself tells us that "Man should not eat by bread alone"..... I believe Martha just wanted to offer a little something to nibble on while Mary wanted to have a full meal... Lazarus was just caught in the middle! Really, go look it up!

 

1 hour ago, Frits said:

 

So there is demonstrable consciousness after death, in both the believing person and the unbelieving person.
So Solomon was wrong in Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Frits

Once again, the fact that you feel that a verse (in this case our dear friend Solomon) is wrong tells me there is indeed a contradiction and also, that a or any verse in the Bible COULD BE WRONG. No contradictions, no wrong verses, it can ONLY be OUR MISUNDERSTANDING OR MISINTERPRETATION. These are God's Words not Solomon or Moses or Jeremiah, etc.,

Hope some of this makes sense ..... now I have to go, my wife and daughter are fighting over what to make for dinner and I might be gone for 4 days or so...... I will let you know what I saw when I get back. Charlie

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hello brother, to get things with clarity it needs to walk step by step, instant of thinking about the end and try to fit everything within that conclusion. 

I need to start some place and it has to be with things you understand and you can relate with on your own, and with the help of Jesus Christ as he sees fit to guide you in these matters. At times he leave us on our own and that how it has to be. 

We need to look why Jesus Christ had chosen the Greeks and the Romans to be the heirs of the Gospel.

Those Nations they did not have the scriptures and actually they had their own religion which it was deferent from the religions of other Nations. 

And it was not just about polytheism it was their understanding of spiritual matters. 

One example is just a short time before the Cross when the disciples informed Jesus that a group of Ethnic Greeks is seeking to see you, Jesus Christ reacted with the words " my time has come. It is as if Jesus Christ was waiting for that moment. 

 

Thank you for reminding me of this story and your comments above! There was a tremendous believe by all pagans throughout the then known world there was this afterlife. The Romans had their own names of gods who controlled or were responsible for this or that and so did the Greeks. it was God who chose Abraham and his descendants to introduce this ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD TO THE WORLD. They were hundreds or even thousands of gods named and worshipped by the pagans. And you are so right.... God does not do random or coincidence or happenstance. His timing is always perfect and uses just those Greek folks who were very interested in learning about this NEW ONE GOD theory practiced by these unusual people called the Israelites, and having this take place right in front of the opening of the cave where they believed it was the entrance to their idea of hell. Can't make this stuff up!

God orchestrated every Word in His Scriptures..... not one jot was unintended or misplaced or in error , and that is the same for when He arrived on earth and walked and spoke and did everything He had to do at the perfect time He had to do it ----- everything with God is purposeful and necessary and righteous and comes directly from HIM. d

Just my thoughts and please let me know yours....... this is a journey and we must keep each other on the same path..... no one can do this alone..... but there is so much talent and knowledge just within this forum it will be easier for each of us, Charlie

 

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for your sharing with us a lot of things that make sense. 

That Solomon got educated not only from the teachers of the Law, but also from the religions of his wife, and he mix things up, for the shake of his wives who refused to follow him in his faith.

Thank you so much for reminding me of this and this does in fact speak directly to my earlier comment to Fritz.

Fritz, here is just another terrific confirmation about "the dead know nothing" AND  where you should be more compassionate with Solomon:

God knows exactly what He is doing and why He selected Solomon to speak about this subject. Solomon had 700 wives! You have heard it said why man dies earlier than woman? Because they WANT TO!

Yes, this is also in the Scriptures and Solomon just had enough of having to deal with those 700 wives. He knew he would get some serious rest and his wives could not follow him... This is the real story......Now many might argue that Solomon was JUST HOPING DEATH WOULD BE QUIET AND PEACEFUL AND NO MORE ARGUING WITH THE WIVES but I think he really knew something.... I think God had whispered in his ear and told him...... not to worry, I got this..... you will not know anything when you die

 

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

He wanted to be together with them after death and he tried to convince himself that could be when the scriptures of the Law said otherwise, and God comforted him and he got lucky because it would have happened to him and worse than what happened to King  Saul, who did not joint himself to the Idols and other unforgivable things.

So you saying that Solomon WANTED TO BE WITH HIS 700 wives even after he died? You forget, Solomon was the wisest man who ever lived..... do you see a contradiction here?

Sure, I can hear Solomon right now saying to himself, "sure, I am hoping I can bring all 700 of my wives talking all at the same time with me when I die...... yea, that's a plan!  Well, here are a few thoughts from Solomon himself:

It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife. Proverbs 21:9

 A foolish son is ruin to his father, and a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain. Proverbs 19:13

 It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman. Proverbs 21:19

Consequently, I think Solomon was given a "heads up" by God and told him not to worry and the 700 club would not be with him.

 

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

***Ecclesiastes 9:5,6

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

***please included in your presentation the context, because Solomon did not stop at "the dead know nothing " but he continued to say "in matters under the Sun"

" they did not get involved in the life of the living" 

And why would Solomon say that is because some of his wives came from backgrounds where they worship the dead and they make them part of their lives, as their guardians Angel's, or as the teachers of their knowledge. 

That's how they show their involvement in the spirit world , those Nations were Spiritualist Nations, they involved Spirits in their everyday lives.

" just how we expect the Holy Spirit to help us in this life".

Those Nations were Occult Nations, and Nations worshiping and seeking the help of their ancestors. 

It seems that Solomon came against those beliefs and not only disapproved them but he talked against them as this part of ch9,v.5,6 says.

Solomon said the dead has nothing to do with the living, that they are not wandering and influencing the lives of the living.

I have to rest now.

 

Now this is "preaching" my friend and the only thing to say is "AMEN".

Just my thoughts, Charlie

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Whyme said:

The air we breathe is symbolic of spiritual air that is everlasting and thus real, while the  physical is merely a symbol.

Shalom, Whyme.

Oh, NONSENSE! If we are NEVER to use the word "spiritual" again, it'd be too soon! "Spiritual air." Now, THAT'S a new one!

There is NO SUCH THING! You've "bitten the apple!" (How's THAT for symbolism?!) You're reaching for straws and grasping the "spiritual air!"

I attempt to close the loopholes of imaginative, fictitious thinking, and you all just BURST out into the ridiculous anyway! IT IS SIMPLER THAN THAT! JUST ACCEPT that God's Word says WE ARE DUST!