Convince me of a pre-trib rapture...

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, Mantis said:

Yeah if I were a pastor teaching that pre-tribulation rapture as absolute truth I would be very worried. What if you were wrong?? How many people have you given false hope? I would think God would judge that and I would not want to be on his bad side.

It will be like the days of Noah, people were eating n drinking n married n marrying, but God prepared to rescue Noah n this world does not own time, as n the time of Lot God sent angels to rescue Lot.

The raptured saints are seen as great multitude of Revelation 7 but the foolish virgins left behind shall be martyred n goes directly under the Altar, as John has seen it at the 5th seal opening.

Two shall be in the field one .is taken one is left

[JohnD]

This may appear to be date setting. And clearly we are not to even try to date set when Jesus is returning. But we already know the season (at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel). And we cannot know the day or hour... because it is all predicated on when the Jewish people cry out to Jesus to be saved from the total annihilation the campaign of Armageddon is about to unleash on them.  ← this is the purpose of the Great Tribulation (turning the Jews back to their Messiah)... which unfortunately takes such drastic measures. "Nothing else has worked... what the hell, let's pray Jesus saves us!" And they will cry out for him with the ancient prophecy cry for help "Hosha Nah! (save now) Hosha Nah (hosanna), YeHOSHua (Jesus)!"   

And Jesus will return and he will save them both for time and for eternity!!!

Hallelujah!

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

It will be like the days of Noah, people were eating n drinking n married n marrying, but God prepared to rescue Noah n this world does not own time

Yes, Jesus said it will be like the days of Noah, and you are right that people were marrying and given in marriage. Since everyone in Noah's family were already married, we know that the people spoken of, were those outside of the ark. There are two groups in view, the Godly ones in the ark, and the unGodly ones outside of the ark.

Now, what He says about that time, is this is how it will be at the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man. Click the word parousia to see it's meaning. You will notice that it is the arrival or Christ, His presence with us, not out going to meet Him, it is the downward motion to earth. That is also that context of the passage, in which His coming is described as immediately after the tribulation of those days.

As I was saying, there are two groups:

"until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left."

So, when the Son of Man comes, and it is as in the days on Noah, there is on group taken, and the other left. The passage says that they were unaware (some versions say surprised). Question: Who was surprised, which group?

It was not Noah and his family, they had been building an ark for 120 years, because they knew what was coming, it was those outside of the ark who were caught off guard. Again:

"they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Therefore, it is the ones taken, that are destroyed, those left, are safe in the ark. The discipes ask "Where Lord?" - where are they taken to, is what I suspect they are asking. He replied:

"And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.” Luke 17:37

That doesn't sound like a good thing. Rather than being taken to where the corpse and vultures gather, I would rather be left behind!

 

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

49 minutes ago, Chicken coop2 said:

The second coming and the rapture are two different events.  Rapture is first and can happen at any moment.  Perhaps @watchman might participate in this thread.

They are two different directions, but that does not mean they are separated by a significant length of time, the text never indicates that. As far as Watchman, he tends to stick to chat, and I beleive he would certainly address this there, if someone asks.

[Zemke]

10 hours ago, Mantis said:

Ok so I attend a Calvery chapel. They teach pre-trib rapture. I am not convinced. The way I read it is at the last trump the rapture happens, after the tribulation. But then they say that Jesus comes like a thief in the night to get his church, people will be eating, drinking marrying and given I'm marriage. That doesn't't sound like tribulation times. What do you think?

Well how far is the night? Ask them, when is the night? And why does He compare himself to a thief? Jesus said, "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work."  

Peter in Acts 2 said the sun will turn to darkness and the moon to blood 'before' that great and glorious day comes. Always dark, always night. The cry the virgins heard was at midnight. The old and the new is consistent with the day of the LORD and darkness. 

About the drinking and marrying; The prophets and apostles were consistent with looking for and waiting for the Lord. Isaiah 8:16,17

"Bind up the testimony seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait for the LORD who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob; I will even look eagerly for Him."

Philippians 3:20

"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:

What I believe Jesus is speaking of is people going about everyday oblivious to what is about to come. We are to be looking eagerly for the Lord. I think it's commendable, even though I disagree with pre-trib, to have the expectation of the Lords return on the ON switch when more and more of the church is sliding away from even talking about Him coming. Unpopular in many circles. So I embrace that aspect of the pre position in that respect there is no clear scripture stating that kind of timing and even Clerence Larkin who was the man who wrote "The Dispensational Truth", and other books with drawings, in the early twentieth century said it wasn't clearly biblical but he and others just didn't know where to put it and with their dispensational belief it was the only place it seems to fit. 

Clarence was a man who loved Jesus and he eagerly looked for Him and that's what I appreciate. I just think it's a good possibility He is coming sometime in the night and not before. What we need to be alert for is what Jesus warned us more about than anything else concerning His coming and the end of the age. "Do not be mislead." "False teachers, false prophets, deception to deceive the very elect if possible." 

If the teaching is solid and and you are growing in Jesus having faith it's where the Lord has you right now, keep the rapture stuff light. Many Calvary Chapels have that strong statement "If two do not agree, how can they walk together." I don't think the rapture timing should be placed in that category but some of their churches are buggy about it. Love the Lord and His people. Time is short, eagerly wait for the appearing of the Lord. Remember he can come for anyone of us tonight or the next day but the rapture, no, unless it's the night.

[Omegaman 3.0]

11 hours ago, Mantis said:

But then they say that Jesus comes like a thief in the night to get his church

Actuallty Mantis, just look to the Bible, and not what we who prexume to be teachers say. Look up in the Bible "thief in the night" or comes like a thief" and see to who those verses are applied. Hint: notice that usually two groups of people are in view, and not who is who". If you need help, just ask, but I am confident that if you look for yourself, you will figure it out.

As of for Calvary Chapel, they are good, God loving people, solid Christians generally. Don't let these sorts of differences, cause any sort of division for you. If I did not have a fellowship that I thought was a little more picky about Bible verses, I would be happy to call CC my fellowship home!

[glff]

Hey!  Mantis...  PTL!!!

I think Calvary Chapel is awesome.

I detest systematic theologies that teach those who study them of be just like their teachers.  King Solomon said by the Spirit, "Cease, my son, from instruction that causes thee to err."  Sadly, the truth feels exactly the same as does error and again, sadly, it is impossible to discern between revelation from the Holy Spirit and our mind's understanding of studied scripture.  As soon as we think we know it, we become unteachable.  Maybe that's why scripture tells us that knowledge puffs us up.

When a person becomes a babe in Christ the Holy Spirit feeds them upon milk or the word of righteousness for them to grow and the strong meat of understanding and doctrine are illuminated by the Spirit when we're of full age having our senses exercised by reason of use to discern both good and evil.  That this is an on-going process is seen in Eph 5:26 "that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word."  If you want a miracle, devote yourself to the scriptures and the Holy Spirit will write the Lord's commandments into your heart and mind, here a little and there a little; which makes it better to do 5 chapters a day rather than 50 chapters all at once in your devotions to the Lord.  This conforms us to the image of Jesus Christ and is the main promise of the new covenant and one of the things that makes it better than the old covenant.

I consider the end times to be the most obscured portion of scripture since even Jesus himself told us that he didn't know when the time of his return would be and that only the Father knew.  This shows us that Jesus set aside his own deity power and lived as our true example, performing his works and miracles by faith in the Lord; otherwise why would it be that he grew in stature with both God and man while growing to manhood.

I've got the end times all figured out and I'm sure that I can't be the one who has it right over every one else, but this is how I see it at this time...  lol@me!!!

Jesus said in Lu 21 that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.  In that same chapter he gives a parable of how to tell it is time and then says, This generation shall not pass away until all is fulfilled.  In another place, we're told that our life is three score and ten years or by reason of strength four score years.  Jerusalem became Israeli in 1967 and 80 years from then for the furthest date of the Lord's Jesus' Second Coming is 2037 minus 7 years and we have the tribulation beginning in 2030.  In another place we're told, except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh survive.  I suspect that's why the last vial judgement wasn't revealed in the book of Revelations.  This fact, all by itself, makes it impossible for anyone to know the day or the hour of the Lord's return.

Jesus said, "And thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." And in 2 Th 2:6-8 "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy of the brightness of his coming."  So the church withholds the anti-christ from revealing himself because we've been given authority over all the power of the enemy, but once we're removed in the rapture, the anti-christ will perform the abomination of desolation and would deceive the very elect is it were possible.  The only way the elect of this day and age would not be deceived, considering our spiritual condition as a whole now-a-days, is for us to be raptured away.  This is also seen in 2 Th 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."  Once the church is gone there can no longer be a falling away because we'll all be gone and mankind will have until Jesus returns to repent and believe or while they are yet standing the flesh will be consumed on their bones, the eyes in their holes, and the tongues in their mouths.

Jesus come quickly! Amen!

 

glf

[glff]

Please, let me add:

The Thriller of Manila which was the Joe Frazier and Mohammed Ali fight was the first time that our satellites connected so that people all over the world could watch the same event at the same time.  This made it possible for Jesus' prophecy to be literally fulfilled about the whole world watching the 2 witnesses be overcome, lay dead for three days and then come back to life.  Probably on cable channel 666.

The apostle John saw a vision and he described it with words that he knew and I suspect that he saw helicopters.  Giant locusts rise up from the ground, with crowns on their heads and stingers on their tails.  With breastplates of Iron and the faces of men and made the sound of many chariots rushing into battle.  Its's the faces of men that really convinced me, the pilot and co-pilot.  I really do love jumping out of helicopters!  : )

The burning mountain that will destroy 1/3 of the worlds population, pollute 1/3 of its rivers, and sink 1/3 of its ships will not hit in Europe or China as they'll be to be able to meet at the battle of Armageddon.  It can't hit in Russia as they'll be destroyed when they attack Israel and so too for N Africa or the Arabian people as they'll be destroyed just like Russia.  So that leaves N and S America to supply the 1/3 destruction of the worlds population, rivers, and ships.  Sadly...

[Starise]

13 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The raptured saints are seen as great multitude of Revelation 7 but the foolish virgins left behind shall be martyred n goes directly under the Altar, as John has seen it at the 5th seal opening.

I hate to bring this up, but doesn't this make it seem that people who will be martyred are irresponsible?  Maybe there are other ways of looking at this passage? 

[Mantis]

6 hours ago, glff said:

As soon as we think we know it, we become unteachable.

This is a profound statement