Why good men go to hell?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, missmuffet said:

" The road to hell is paved with good intentions", but the road to heaven is paved with obedient faith. 

Yes. It doesn't come down to 'good' or 'bad', it's about belief and trust and confession.

I don't know why it's even a thing. None are good. If good is the path to heaven and God's house in eternal life it will be an empty house.

[Starise]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

So any understanding of righteousness of OT personages should be tied to their understanding of the future anointed one since he and he alone is the only way to the Father. 

 

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

@Your closest friendnt If I understand the "Worthy" pin correctly then there's agreement with my post. @Starise can speak for himself but I suspect he also will agree with that post. Assuming so, then is there some dispute? How is Starise "putting mud in the water"? 

I don't intend to direct this thread away from the subject matter, yet I think Josheb picked up on this and the fact that English is not a first language for @Your closest friendnt. I basically said the same thing as Josheb in the first statement and was disagreed with.

" ties to their understanding" can cover a lot of ground or very little. I think they understood salvation was coming from the Jews. They understood Yahweh was God and had faith in Him. Did they have the whole story of Jesus? I tend to think not. They knew God was sending salvation and they trusted in that. If God told me I was going to be wealthy yet never told me how I would still believe Him. I believe this was the case with the patriarchs. 

In reference to having an action, in this case faith in God, referred to as " counting for righteousness" we don't see a similar statement in the NT about anyone to my knowledge. Why would this be relevant only in the OT? My answer to that is they didn't know HOW yet they still believed. If angels had come down and whispered the succession of Jesus and the crucifixion in Abraham's ear there would have been no need for the statement in the first place.

[Your closest friendnt]

We need to look at what point God cleansed Abraham and his seed after him and set him apart from the rest of the world for him self in Life and in death, to be their God and them to be his people. 

(When Jesus Christ died the whole world was reconciled to God, the old things are gone the new has come. I said this so people they are not confused. 

Since the death of Jesus Christ God has children only through Jesus Christ and at death they are gathered to Jesus Christ, as they are the children of the  blood of Jesus Christ. 

In life and in death they are alive and in him and they are in the Heavenly Inheritance).

I was asked to give an account for some comments I made earlier and I going to do just that: 

(I have to save the post and continue as "edit" looking for the scriptures in. Support, because I am loosing the post and I have to start all over again, sorry I am using a Iphone).

****Genesis 15: 3-15

Abram's complain 

 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

The Lord's response and his promise to Abram 

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 

The context of the Lord's promise to Abram. 

5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

Abram as a believer in God all his life he listen to the promises the Lord made to him, that he will bless not just him but also his offsprings after him with a lot of descendants, and they will multiply and never be extinct. 

Abram believe in the promise the Lord made to him and that the Lord was able to make it happen and that the Lord will continue to bless his children after Abram's death as he had just promised to him. And as a result of Abram believing in the promise just made to him from the Lord. (Abram being a believer in God all his life).

In verse 6, we are told that in response to Abram believe what God had just promised to him, God accounted it to him for righteousness. 

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

*********

When verse 6 is isolated from the context of the previous verses it plays on the mind of the reader as follows: 

"Abram believed in the Lord and look what happened, how the Lord responded when Abraham believed in him.

This is a very common way to cause someone to depart from the rightful use of verse 6.

That will cause the traveler to go even further and think in him selfie, well that what happened that time when someone believed in the Lord he counted it to him for righteousness, well that's how people were made righteous in the eyes of God, what they had to do is to believe.

This thinking may sound logical moving along step by step on what seems secure steps. 

But the thinker did nothing to consider the preceding verses 5 and 4 where Abram believed in the promise of God. That in his promise to Abram to have a heir God included his children and their children after them, that he will all bless them with heirs and will be not possible to number them, just like the stars. 

7 Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who (P)brought you out of (Q)Ur of the Chaldeans, (R)to give you this land to inherit it.”

8 And he said, “Lord God, (S)how shall I know that I will inherit it?”

9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and (T)cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut (U)the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

12 Now when the sun was going down, (V)a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly (W)that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and (X)they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve (Y)I will judge; afterward (Z)they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, (AA)you shall [d]go (AB)to your fathers in peace; (AC)you shall be buried at a good old age. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[johnthebaptist]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Lots of gaps in scripture. I feel if the scripture is silent, we should also be silent.

Mattew 4:17 tells us to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The only way to understand the scripture is to repent (of our sin).

[johnthebaptist]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 

Is it being insinuated the posters with whom you are in conversation have not repented? You have but we have not?

And whether or not that is the insinuation, how does that address the other poster's David's posted concerns

When we repent of our sin, the meaning of the scripture (Matthew 4:17) becomes clear. For those who don't understand the scripture, one can only assume they haven't repented.

[Starise]

32 minutes ago, Josheb said:

This is good but incomplete. I say this because we have reasons in the NT to understand those who would be saved understood much more than just "have faith in God." The NT repeats the OT rule "the righteous shall live by faith," but faith in what? They certainly understood the need for the tree of life and the seed of a woman would crush the serpents head (one of the earliest soteriological statements asserted in scripture). We know Abraham paid homage to a priestly king. We know Abraham was preached the gospel and understood a seed - singular "seed," not plural - would be the fulfillment of the promises made to him and it was through that singular seed many nations would come. We know David understood God's oath for a future throne was about the resurrection. We know these things because the New Testament tells us these things.

We also know many Jews did not understand. 

We know those who did not understand looked for a temporal, fleshly fulfillment and because their theology was screwed up the 1) were chronic covenant breakers not much different than the rest of the world,  2) completely missed God's anointed one when he stood right in front of them commanding creation, and 3) those who didn't live by faith in the correct thing were used to murder the correct thing and bring about that in which the others had faith . 

 

It's important to remember there is more than one salvation in the Bible, most of them temporal, not eternal. God save the Hebrews from Egypt, Assyria, and Babylon - even as He used those events for judgment and refining. He saved David from the angel of death. He provided for the salvation of the world through the crushing of His Son and it was promised Christ would come again for a salvation apart from sin. Salvation from sin and the wrath of God is decidedly a salvation NOT apart from sin. 

The righteous shall live by faith, but faith in what? Remember also we are not saved by faith. We are saved through faith, not by faith. We are saved by grace, through faith, for works, not the other way around. We are justified by faith, not saved by it. It's a subtle but important distinction; one which most Jews completely missed. 

 

Saved by faith in what? In whom? God's gonna come down and walk about the earth as a man, we're not gonna listen to a word he says, kill him, and then he's gonna come back from the dead? pfffft! 

 

The righteous shall live by faith in the singular royal priestly seed that would die but not see decay. 

 

That's a lot for the OT Jew to grasp, much less believe. 

If you want to expound more on it feel free.

Yes I think they had the knowledge it would be a singular seed, a man. How much they knew exactly is probably debatable. Many of them likely didn't see integration of the Gentiles into it , even though God told Abram  his seed would bless the entire earth that might not have completely registered with all the Jews. 

The manner in which these events transpired would not have been imagined by even the most studied. That they themselves would kill their own messiah could not have been high on their guess list. To look for a king here on this earth would have been the most obvious choice. To this day many most of them are STILL looking for this. Jesus was a good person but not their messiah. Only later will they realize it.

In much the same way some people think they have the end times all figured out, many Jews thought they had this all figured out. Jesus as our messiah??? No way.

The stone the builders rejected has become the corner stone.

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said:

Mattew 4:17 tells us to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The only way to understand the scripture is to repent (of our sin).

I agree. 

[David1701]

17 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

Read Matthew 4:17 again.

Matt. 4:17 (WEB) From that time, Jesus began to preach, and to say, “Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”

This says nothing about us being in heaven already.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God/Heaven, which is why our bodies need to be resurrected first.

1 Cor. 15:50-54 (WEB)

50 Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit the Kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

[johnthebaptist]

22 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Matt. 4:17 (WEB) From that time, Jesus began to preach, and to say, “Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”

This says nothing about us being in heaven already.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God/Heaven, which is why our bodies need to be resurrected first.

1 Cor. 15:50-54 (WEB)

50 Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit the Kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

We can't understand what Mattew 4:17 means till we do what he told us to do: Repent of our sin.

[David1701]

39 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said:

We can't understand what Mattew 4:17 means till we do what he told us to do: Repent of our sin.

Repentance on its own won't do it. 

You need to be born again, repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.  These are all gifts from God.  When you have been given them, you know that you are in fellowship with the Lord, in your spirit; but you, as a whole, will not enter heaven until the resurrection.