Daniel 11 -first 6 verses - Can we identify them?

[Charlie744]

Alright everyone... are there ANY thoughts or comments on the rather long response made to Diaste (I believe it was on page 4)?

Thanks, Charlie 

[Diaste]

On 1/24/2021 at 7:42 PM, Charlie744 said:

So what is the specific language in 11:5 supposed to tell us and send us in the right path to interpret chapter 11? It is this: This verse is not a continuation of 11:4 and it does not point us to the most powerful of the 4 generals of the post Alexander period. Rather it is meant to draw us to the events between the last two kingdoms THAT ARE CRITICAL AND NECESSARY IN ORDER FOR THE MESSIAH TO COME. After the Jews returned to Judah they failed miserably…. Idolatry, disobedience, human sacrifices, no respect for the Temple, on and on. That is until the Maccabees. They began the restoration of the ceremonies, the Temple and everything “correct” in the Jewish religion. For the next 150 years, the Jews would return to God, obey His Word, read the Torah, rebuilt the Temple and all the vessels, etc., and honor the festivals / feasts days. This had to happen BEFORE THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH.

 

Daniel 11:5 is speaking to this! The KOS shall become strong (once again) as well as one of his princes (Messiah), and He (Messiah) shall gain power over him (KOS) and have dominion (of course the Messiah is above everyone and everything).  His (Messiah) dominion will be great dominion (this certainly cannot speak to ANY KING OR KINGDOM ON EARTH BUT ONLY THE MESSIAH).  The message of Daniel 11 is prophetic and speaks about the coming Messiah and HIS Plan of Salvation for us…. It is NOT another history lesson about some minor thugs!! And of course, this event, the coming of the Messiah and the necessity for the Jews to be “strong” in their faith, their practices, their Temple tells us this only happens post the Maccabees and within the 4^th kingdom of pagan Rome. Pagan Rome and 11:5 are the same.  Consequently, from11:5 ALL verses speak about the Messiah, those events surrounding HIS time, the coming of the little horn, and His Plan of Salvation for us. This is a spiritual approach to 11 as opposed to a physical approach where we try and turn 11 into another history (secular) lesson.

You are literally saying the Messiah comes out of Egypt at the end of the age.

I know Jesus came from Egypt as a little boy. That seems appropriate as we are all called out of Egypt, aren't we? But in the end Jesus comes from above. Unless this is what you are saying; that some 2 centuries later Jesus was a prince of the contemporary Egyptian dynasty and so then came from that dynasty to Israel and became the suffering Messiah.

Is that it?

Between the 3rd and fourth kingdom? So between Greece and Rome? That's a gap and I thought there wasn't one.

I don't understand the context of the Messiah as you lay it out. Is this the end of the age Messiah that rules with power forever?

I don't see the spiritual approach as justified. I have done a great deal of reading about the wars of the Diadochi and while complex, and sometimes frustrating over a dearth of evidence in some instances; these wars look a great deal like Dan 11. 

Antiochus IV did exactly this: "29At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

The ships of Kittim brought the Romans to oppose Antiochus IV. Which they did, turning Antiochus IV back without a fight and abandoning his campaign against Egypt in the 6th Syrian War. This happened circa 169 BC. After Antiochus began his thrust into Egypt post 169 BC; it was then the Romans showed up and the behest of the Egyptians rulers and rebuffed the attack by Antiochus IV. Anriochus literally 'lost heart',

"Popilius offered the king an ultimatum from the Senate: he must evacuate Egypt and Cyprus immediately. Antiochus begged to have time to consider but Popilius drew a circle round him in the sand with his cane and told him to decide before he stepped outside it. Antiochus chose to obey the Roman ultimatum. "

 Edouard Will, L'histoire politique du monde hellénistique (Editions du Seuil, 2003 ed.) Tome II, pp.311-323"

This was post 168 BC and we know Antiochus IV desecrated the Temple in 167 BC.

The written history of the other events from Dan 11:5-28 is sparse or even nonexistent [it's not perfect but the parallels are seen] but the actions of Antiochus IV are not. 

So then at least at this point the histories align quite nicely with Daniel 11 and we can conclude verses 29-31 are a matter of historical fact. 

This did happen as written and the histories prove it.

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You are literally saying the Messiah comes out of Egypt at the end of the age.

I know Jesus came from Egypt as a little boy. That seems appropriate as we are all called out of Egypt, aren't we? But in the end Jesus comes from above. Unless this is what you are saying; that some 2 centuries later Jesus was a prince of the contemporary Egyptian dynasty and so then came from that dynasty to Israel and became the suffering Messiah.

Is that it?

Between the 3rd and fourth kingdom? So between Greece and Rome? That's a gap and I thought there wasn't one.

I don't understand the context of the Messiah as you lay it out. Is this the end of the age Messiah that rules with power forever?

I don't see the spiritual approach as justified. I have done a great deal of reading about the wars of the Diadochi and while complex, and sometimes frustrating over a dearth of evidence in some instances; these wars look a great deal like Dan 11. 

Antiochus IV did exactly this: "29At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation."

The ships of Kittim brought the Romans to oppose Antiochus IV. Which they did, turning Antiochus IV back without a fight and abandoning his campaign against Egypt in the 6th Syrian War. This happened circa 169 BC. After Antiochus began his thrust into Egypt post 169 BC; it was then the Romans showed up and the behest of the Egyptians rulers and rebuffed the attack by Antiochus IV. Anriochus literally 'lost heart',

"Popilius offered the king an ultimatum from the Senate: he must evacuate Egypt and Cyprus immediately. Antiochus begged to have time to consider but Popilius drew a circle round him in the sand with his cane and told him to decide before he stepped outside it. Antiochus chose to obey the Roman ultimatum. "

 Edouard Will, L'histoire politique du monde hellénistique (Editions du Seuil, 2003 ed.) Tome II, pp.311-323"

This was post 168 BC and we know Antiochus IV desecrated the Temple in 167 BC.

The written history of the other events from Dan 11:5-28 is sparse or even nonexistent [it's not perfect but the parallels are seen] but the actions of Antiochus IV are not. 

So then at least at this point the histories align quite nicely with Daniel 11 and we can conclude verses 29-31 are a matter of historical fact. 

This did happen as written and the histories prove it.

Apparently I was not very clear ... No, Jesus did not come out of Egypt at the end of the age.

The very first issue to contend with is:

1) Who is the 4th kingdom and,

2) When does this kingdom show itself or when does Daniel begin to speak of it in 11.

IF we get this wrong then all subsequent interpretations will / must follow DOWN THAT PATH.

If 11:4 to 11:5 is simply a continuation of the post Alexander/pre-pagan Rome period / powers AS JUST ABOUT EVERYONE has interpreted / accepted, then 11:5 to perhaps 11:28 or so will  / must also speak to that same period/powers. 

If however, the 4th kingdom speaks of pagan Rome AND Daniel begins to talk about it in 11:5, then those same verses ( 11:5 to say 11:28) to follow will / must speak to those events and actors during that period/kingdom.

So, without looking ahead at the latter verses in Daniel, we need to focus just on 11:4 to 11:5 only. Otherwise we will ALWAYS be asking ourselves how can our CURRENT interpretations of the later verses in Daniel 11, possibly fit with a very different beginning kingdom / power of 11:5! Apples and oranges!

Current interpretations of the post 11:4 verses can only (possibly) fit with a pre-pagan Rome 11:5. If 11:5 is pagan Rome then ignore all current interpretations of today. 

So Diaste, I believe the currently accepted interpretations (which I believe you subscribe to also) contends that 11:4 to 11:5 is STILL pre-pagan Rome, while I believe it is the beginning of the actors/events found within pagan Rome (4th kingdom)... this is THE most important issue to determine in 11!!!!

Current interpretations say the “strong kingdom” in 11:5 MUST CLEARLY be speaking of the southern power rising from one of the 4 post Alexander territories. They just point to the power that continued post Alexander that became “strong” and decided how well it fit ... since 11:4 speaks of the 4 powers then  11:5 should / must continue  “seamlessly” with the STRONGEST surviving post Alexander power. Certainly this does SEEM to make sense BUT:

1) subsequent interpretations of post 11:5 verses can not continue to hold to our history books. Some may seem to slide in relatively smoothly, others have to be stretched or forced in using a multitude of iron instruments- pliers, hammers, saws, and the like, while other verses are left completely unaddressed. And this “approach” has left us with an incomplete and very unsatisfied result for 11- but it is ALL we have!

2) The most important issue to decide is whether 11:5 is to speak of our wars and conflicts within the surviving post Alexander (strongest) power, or is a truly prophetic chapter where Daniel is really speaking of the actors/events found / identified earlier in chapters 2,7 & 8 ? Is 11:5 verses and thereafter speaking about the coming Messiah, the 10 horns, the little horn and a 4th kingdom (beast) of pagan Rome, it’s transition from pagan to papal Rome and those efforts and practices that will/would oppose the Word of God and counter His Plan of Salvation for man? 

Unless you are willing to accept 11:5 and thereafter are Messianic and NOT just a history lesson foretelling another conflict/wars of some really unimportant characters ANY PRIOR TO ALL THE REALLY IMPORTANT (MOST IMPORTANT) events to EVER take place on the earth, then you / we / us will have to SETTLE on our current interpretations which are incomplete, weak, full of unaddressed answers, AND they are completely / largely devoid of speaking prophetically about our coming Messiah. 

If you can, for the time being, throw out any and all of our current interpretations of 11:5 on... and start to consider that Daniel just might be speaking of our coming Messiah during the pagan Rome period, we can see if these verses can continue to maintain its prophetic and Messianic integrity to say 11:28 (before any discussion of 11:29 and thereafter).

Consequently, back to square #1 ONLY- the first 200 - 250 years or so of the post Alexander period showed the Jews returned to Judah / Israel BUT they did NOT keep His Word or the ceremonial practices, feast / festivals, found in the Torah. The Temple was in disgrace and unclean. Then from the Maccabean period to the early 1st century, they once again instituted the ceremonial practices, the sacrificial system, cleansed the Temple, etc. This IS a critical factor and a MUST in order for the Messiah to arrive- ALL the prophecies in the OT would fail if there were no Temple, no sacrifices, no ceremonial practices. The Maccabees HAD to happen and begin the restoration process in preparation of the coming Messiah. 

This is what is meant in 11:5 when Daniel writes, “and the KOS will be strong”. This does not refer to the strength of one of the 4 powers following Alexander. 

This is our decision (my belief)- 11:5 is about Israel (KOS) once again becoming “strong”, or it speaks about a post Alexander power!

I respectfully ask you to address just this one verse .... if you stay with it speaks of a post Alexander/ pre-pagan Rome period- then continue with today’s current interpretations! If 11:5 is the beginning of pagan Rome and Israel (KOS) then we can move onto to a very different interpretation of chapter 11.

Thanks again, Charlie 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

 

Diaste, if you do not mind, I would like to supplement my last two responses with the following hoping this is more clear to you..... Once again, everything (interpretations) for 11:5 onward will be based on who is the 4th kingdom and when does Daniel begin to speak to it. Thanks, Charlie

 

11 “Also in the first year of Darius the Mede, I, even I, stood up to confirm and strengthen him.) ² And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece.

This is talking about the 2^nd kingdom of the Medes-Persians…..

 

 ³ Then a mighty king (Alexander) shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

This is talking about the 3rd kingdom of the Greece…..

 

 ⁴ And when he (Alexander) has arisen, his kingdom (Greece) shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven (4 territories held by his 4 generals), but not among his posterity (his kingdom will not pass on to his children / his descendants / heirs) nor according to his dominion with which he ruled (will in no way be as successful as was Alexander); for his kingdom (Greece) shall be uprooted, even for others besides these (meaning his kingdom will be uprooted for others, even others besides these 4 generals).

 

^{After Alexander’s death and up to the beginning of the 1st century AD –}

^{Alexander died, his kingdom given to 4 generals; AE comes and goes we have the Maccabean revolt ~ 165 BC, Hasmonean Dynasty (Jewish state ~ 140 BC) until Rome made it a province or incorporated it within its kingdom (~ 60 BC). Rome, however, did allow Israel to maintain its autonomy and its very different religious beliefs (One God), its ceremonial practices, feasts and festivals, etc. THIS WAS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL IN ORDER FOR THE MESSIAH TO ARRIVE, AND THIS IS WHAT IS BEING SPOKEN OF IN 11:5 (THE KOS SHALL BECOME STRONG – ISRAEL HAD TO ONCE AGAIN BECOME STRONG BEFORE THE MESSIAH).}

^{ALL current interpretations of 11:5 – 11:28 or so are based on 11:5 speaking about the Southern / most powerful king coming out of the post Alexander kingdom including AE). This is why chapter 11 is so weak, so full of holes, lacking integrity and consistency within its own series of interpretations…. How many brilliant and knowledgeable “true” scholars have failed miserably to address the many holes--- certainly not because they were not brilliant or did not put enough time and effort repeatedly using a microscope on the actors / events within our history books during that time period (or even after)….. CHAPTER 11 SHOULD NOT be interpreted in a purely secular manner but in a Messianic manner TAKEN PLACE DURING THESE HISTORICAL PERIODS BEGINNING WITH THE 4TH KINGDOM. God wants us to see HIM in HIS first coming…….This is HIS PROPHETIC STORY.}

 

^{Consequently, if you can accept (for now) that 11:5 begins with pagan Rome -----}

⁵ “Also the king of the South (KOS is Israel) shall become strong (Maccabee’s to the Hasmonean Dynasty to the time of the Messiah), as well as one of his princes (Messiah); and he (Messiah) shall gain power over him (KOS) and have dominion. His (Messiah’s) dominion shall be a great dominion (no other kingdom could possibly be identified as being “a great dominion” other than our Lords Kingdom. This is all Messianic language.

 

 ⁶ And at the end of some years (this would represent the period beginning with the Hasmonean Dynasty and the coming of the Messiah – it is also the period of Daniel’s last week – the 70^th week) they shall join forces (Messiah will be anointed at the beginning of Daniel’s 70^th week and begin His mission – and the Word became flesh) ……..

 

I would ask that you look / consider these interpretations on a stand alone basis and not attempt to connect with to or with those interpretations made under the "current interpretation" process - they are not meant to be joined or fit together.

Thanks, Charlie

[Charlie744]

On 1/30/2021 at 3:51 PM, Charlie744 said:

 

Diaste, if you do not mind, I would like to supplement my last two responses with the following hoping this is more clear to you..... Once again, everything (interpretations) for 11:5 onward will be based on who is the 4th kingdom and when does Daniel begin to speak to it. Thanks, Charlie

 

11 “Also in the first year of Darius the Mede, I, even I, stood up to confirm and strengthen him.) ² And now I will tell you the truth: Behold, three more kings will arise in Persia, and the fourth shall be far richer than them all; by his strength, through his riches, he shall stir up all against the realm of Greece.

This is talking about the 2^nd kingdom of the Medes-Persians…..

 

 ³ Then a mighty king (Alexander) shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

This is talking about the 3rd kingdom of the Greece…..

 

 ⁴ And when he (Alexander) has arisen, his kingdom (Greece) shall be broken up and divided toward the four winds of heaven (4 territories held by his 4 generals), but not among his posterity (his kingdom will not pass on to his children / his descendants / heirs) nor according to his dominion with which he ruled (will in no way be as successful as was Alexander); for his kingdom (Greece) shall be uprooted, even for others besides these (meaning his kingdom will be uprooted for others, even others besides these 4 generals).

 

^{After Alexander’s death and up to the beginning of the 1st century AD –}

^{Alexander died, his kingdom given to 4 generals; AE comes and goes we have the Maccabean revolt ~ 165 BC, Hasmonean Dynasty (Jewish state ~ 140 BC) until Rome made it a province or incorporated it within its kingdom (~ 60 BC). Rome, however, did allow Israel to maintain its autonomy and its very different religious beliefs (One God), its ceremonial practices, feasts and festivals, etc. THIS WAS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL IN ORDER FOR THE MESSIAH TO ARRIVE, AND THIS IS WHAT IS BEING SPOKEN OF IN 11:5 (THE KOS SHALL BECOME STRONG – ISRAEL HAD TO ONCE AGAIN BECOME STRONG BEFORE THE MESSIAH).}

^{ALL current interpretations of 11:5 – 11:28 or so are based on 11:5 speaking about the Southern / most powerful king coming out of the post Alexander kingdom including AE). This is why chapter 11 is so weak, so full of holes, lacking integrity and consistency within its own series of interpretations…. How many brilliant and knowledgeable “true” scholars have failed miserably to address the many holes--- certainly not because they were not brilliant or did not put enough time and effort repeatedly using a microscope on the actors / events within our history books during that time period (or even after)….. CHAPTER 11 SHOULD NOT be interpreted in a purely secular manner but in a Messianic manner TAKEN PLACE DURING THESE HISTORICAL PERIODS BEGINNING WITH THE 4TH KINGDOM. God wants us to see HIM in HIS first coming…….This is HIS PROPHETIC STORY.}

 

^{Consequently, if you can accept (for now) that 11:5 begins with pagan Rome -----}

⁵ “Also the king of the South (KOS is Israel) shall become strong (Maccabee’s to the Hasmonean Dynasty to the time of the Messiah), as well as one of his princes (Messiah); and he (Messiah) shall gain power over him (KOS) and have dominion. His (Messiah’s) dominion shall be a great dominion (no other kingdom could possibly be identified as being “a great dominion” other than our Lords Kingdom. This is all Messianic language.

 

 ⁶ And at the end of some years (this would represent the period beginning with the Hasmonean Dynasty and the coming of the Messiah – it is also the period of Daniel’s last week – the 70^th week) they shall join forces (Messiah will be anointed at the beginning of Daniel’s 70^th week and begin His mission – and the Word became flesh) ……..

 

I would ask that you look / consider these interpretations on a stand alone basis and not attempt to connect with to or with those interpretations made under the "current interpretation" process - they are not meant to be joined or fit together.

Thanks, Charlie

 

I was hoping there would have been more interest / responses from all the talented folks within this forum....... pro or con.

 It seems to have run its course and it might be time to move on. I do appreciated those who have commented / responded, Charlie

 

 

 

[Charlie744]

16 minutes ago, SONshine said:

I’m not very “talented,” I reckon.  Just know it was a worthy topic, okay? 

Thank you very much for your comment but I don’t believe anyone within this forum would consider you as “not talented”!!!

 I certainly have enjoyed your responses during the relatively brief time on this forum. Thank you again, Charlie 

[luigi]

When Daniel inquires of the Lord about the visions shown him in chapter 11, Daniel is told to go on his way, that that information did not concern him, and that it was sealed until the time of the end, when it would then be unsealed (Daniel 12:8-9). We are now those who are running to and fro throughout the earth, inquiring about this end time information, with our knowledge increasing (Daniel 12:4).

The kingdom of Greece who is the Northern kingdom, in whom is the king who stands up and does as he pleases (Daniel 11:2-4), who takes away the daily sacrifice, and sets up the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31), is the same king from Greece during the end times (Daniel 8:17 & 19), who destroys the mighty and holy people, while standing up against the Lord (Daniel 8:24-25).

This king of Greece who does as he pleases, and magnifies himself in his heart while speaking great words against the God of gods (Daniel 11:36), is the little horn who ascends from one of the four seceded kingdoms of Greece, while magnifying himself, and standing up against the Prince of princes (Daniel 8:11 & 25).

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by luigi

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, luigi said:

When Daniel inquires of the Lord about the visions shown him in chapter 11, Daniel is told to go on his way, that that information did not concern him, and that it was sealed until the time of the end, when it would then be unsealed (Daniel 12:8-9). We are now those who are running to and fro throughout the earth, inquiring about this end time information, with our knowledge increasing (Daniel 12:4).

Luigi, thank you very much for taking the time to respond....... I think this topic may just have run its course.  And I have noticed that Da Puppers has given you a "thumbs up", so apparently, you are in good company and I may have some "splaining" to do.

I certainly agree with you regarding the command to "go his own way". Here are my thoughts on this...... there are two commands in Daniel where he is told to "shut up the visions". I believe the earlier one is in chapter 8 and this is directly speaking to the visions about the 70 weeks only. This is the "vision" (I believe) the Messiah will "end the vision and prophecies" mentioned in his 6 accomplishments BEFORE He returns to His Father (9:24). The second command to "shut up or seal up" the visions is pointed to the end times only - where Daniel has no need to understand. This one is beyond his pay grade, if you will, he doesn't have a need to know. I also agree with you that we are now in the end times and we WILL have an increase in our knowledge and understanding - I believe most people contend this is speaking on a secular level, that is, we can easily see the constant and tremendous change in computers, our understanding of medicine, engineering, etc. But I absolutely do not see HIS prophecies speaking about the secular but rather HIS Word. I believe we will have an increase in our understanding of the Scriptures and the end time prophecies. And specifically, it is my opinion (yes, just mine), that there are two important books in the Bible that have YET T0 BE PROPERLY INTERPRETED! 

Approximately 1.5 years ago I wanted to study Revelation since all the seminars and discussions confirmed to me that NO ONE really understood it. Everyone had their own interpretation and none were alike. So many missing holes and unanswered or uninterrupted verses...... however, everyone instructed me to read and study Daniel first then it will aid you in understanding Revelation. For the first time I read and started to study Daniel 1.5 years ago and found the same issues in Daniel that were observed in Revelation, but to a lesser extent. It seemed that most had a similar understanding of the first 6 chapters of Daniel - the purely or almost entirely historical chapters where we were able to match them to our history books. Then as we move along to the later chapters of Daniel, the tires came off the wheels and a consistent and sound (my view) level of interpretations went away. I believe these two books are what this verse in Revelation is speaking about - we will understand them and we MUST understand them before HIS second coming - He would not write these books and leave us so confused about HIS second coming prior to HIS arrival..... would not make sense just to write HIS prophecies and HE still sees we look like deer in HIS headlights!

 

 

 

7 hours ago, luigi said:

The kingdom of Greece who is the Northern kingdom, in whom is the king who stands up and does as he pleases (Daniel 11:2-4),

I believe the Greece Kingdom is the 3rd kingdom and is represented by the bronze belly and thighs of the metal image in chapter 2. Alexander definitely was quite successful on the battlefield but there was no real further contribution .... 

7 hours ago, luigi said:

 

 who takes away the daily sacrifice, and sets up the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31),

Alexander never took away the daily sacrifice. He really was only concerned with the battlefield... he seemed to have a more friendly relationship with Israel - they were never an offensive threat to him or anyone else. Most folks have attempted to interpret chapter 11 by inserting AE since he arrived after Alexander and he hated the Jews.... and he corrupted the Temple by placing a pig on the altar. But even he was a relatively minor actor BETWEEN the last two kingdoms. In fact, if we move forward to 70 AD we will see a general named Titus who was truly an enemy to the Jews and completely destroyed the Temple, the city and the people. 

The daily sacrifice (in my opinion) is NOT a secular event - it does not refer to some general or ruler that destroys the physical Temple or stop the ceremonial practices. This is the result of the coming of the Messiah and the Cross - HE took away the daily sacrifices - HE eliminated the need for an animal sacrifice because HE became the PERFECT and FINAL sacrifice where those who believe in HIM would be forgiven their sins. The ceremonial sacrifices were a "type and shadow" of the things to come - the coming Messiah - not secular.

And this is exactly the same for the AoD (abomination of desolation). This too is not a "secular" event. I believe we have to ask ourselves a question, "What on this earth or in our history could represent the most horrendous, most horrible event ever?" For me, there is only ONE event and that is the Cross and the failure of the Jews to accept their coming Messiah. In the latter chapters of Daniel, he is writing prophetically and spiritually not continuing on with a summary of more of our history of man's conflicts and silly wars - that will continue to today. The AoD is the "ABOMINATION" - the most horrific act that will cause a complete desolation of their Temple, their city and their people. God will use the pagan Roman army - the 4th kingdom, to accomplish and complete this part of the prophecy in Daniel. We must understand and interpret these 6 requirements as they relate directly to the coming Messiah and not a secular approach.

 

7 hours ago, luigi said:

is the same king from Greece during the end times (Daniel 8:17 & 19), who destroys the mighty and holy people, while standing up against the Lord (Daniel 8:24-25).

This king of Greece who does as he pleases, and magnifies himself in his heart while speaking great words against the God of gods (Daniel 11:36), is the little horn who ascends from one of the four seceded kingdoms of Greece, while magnifying himself, and standing up against the Prince of princes (Daniel 8:11 & 25).

 

The one who does as he pleases and magnifies himself above God and speaks words against God is the "little horn" of the fourth kingdom. Pagan Rome will be replaced by Papal Rome and the "little horn" will take power and come to claim he represents god on earth and has the power to forgive sin, is infallible and even claims his words are greater than those of Jesus Himself (per RCC writings). This is the little horn  - the one that arises out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. Greece is long gone and has no place in the coming Messiah, the 10 horns, the little horn.

The 4th kingdom began as pagan Rome and must continue until the end of days when Jesus will return and destroy the entire metal man image. The "little horn" arises from out of this last kingdom (pagan Rome) and also must continue until the end..... 

Again, my thoughts only and thank you again for your thoughts! Charlie

[luigi]

41 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Luigi, thank you very much for taking the time to respond....... I think this topic may just have run its course.  And I have noticed that Da Puppers has given you a "thumbs up", so apparently, you are in good company and I may have some "splaining" to do.

I certainly agree with you regarding the command to "go his own way". Here are my thoughts on this...... there are two commands in Daniel where he is told to "shut up the visions". I believe the earlier one is in chapter 8 and this is directly speaking to the visions about the 70 weeks only. This is the "vision" (I believe) the Messiah will "end the vision and prophecies" mentioned in his 6 accomplishments BEFORE He returns to His Father (9:24). The second command to "shut up or seal up" the visions is pointed to the end times only - where Daniel has no need to understand. This one is beyond his pay grade, if you will, he doesn't have a need to know. I also agree with you that we are now in the end times and we WILL have an increase in our knowledge and understanding - I believe most people contend this is speaking on a secular level, that is, we can easily see the constant and tremendous change in computers, our understanding of medicine, engineering, etc. But I absolutely do not see HIS prophecies speaking about the secular but rather HIS Word. I believe we will have an increase in our understanding of the Scriptures and the end time prophecies. And specifically, it is my opinion (yes, just mine), that there are two important books in the Bible that have YET T0 BE PROPERLY INTERPRETED! 

Approximately 1.5 years ago I wanted to study Revelation since all the seminars and discussions confirmed to me that NO ONE really understood it. Everyone had their own interpretation and none were alike. So many missing holes and unanswered or uninterrupted verses...... however, everyone instructed me to read and study Daniel first then it will aid you in understanding Revelation. For the first time I read and started to study Daniel 1.5 years ago and found the same issues in Daniel that were observed in Revelation, but to a lesser extent. It seemed that most had a similar understanding of the first 6 chapters of Daniel - the purely or almost entirely historical chapters where we were able to match them to our history books. Then as we move along to the later chapters of Daniel, the tires came off the wheels and a consistent and sound (my view) level of interpretations went away. I believe these two books are what this verse in Revelation is speaking about - we will understand them and we MUST understand them before HIS second coming - He would not write these books and leave us so confused about HIS second coming prior to HIS arrival..... would not make sense just to write HIS prophecies and HE still sees we look like deer in HIS headlights!

 

 

 

I believe the Greece Kingdom is the 3rd kingdom and is represented by the bronze belly and thighs of the metal image in chapter 2. Alexander definitely was quite successful on the battlefield but there was no real further contribution .... 

Alexander never took away the daily sacrifice. He really was only concerned with the battlefield... he seemed to have a more friendly relationship with Israel - they were never an offensive threat to him or anyone else. Most folks have attempted to interpret chapter 11 by inserting AE since he arrived after Alexander and he hated the Jews.... and he corrupted the Temple by placing a pig on the altar. But even he was a relatively minor actor BETWEEN the last two kingdoms. In fact, if we move forward to 70 AD we will see a general named Titus who was truly an enemy to the Jews and completely destroyed the Temple, the city and the people. 

The daily sacrifice (in my opinion) is NOT a secular event - it does not refer to some general or ruler that destroys the physical Temple or stop the ceremonial practices. This is the result of the coming of the Messiah and the Cross - HE took away the daily sacrifices - HE eliminated the need for an animal sacrifice because HE became the PERFECT and FINAL sacrifice where those who believe in HIM would be forgiven their sins. The ceremonial sacrifices were a "type and shadow" of the things to come - the coming Messiah - not secular.

And this is exactly the same for the AoD (abomination of desolation). This too is not a "secular" event. I believe we have to ask ourselves a question, "What on this earth or in our history could represent the most horrendous, most horrible event ever?" For me, there is only ONE event and that is the Cross and the failure of the Jews to accept their coming Messiah. In the latter chapters of Daniel, he is writing prophetically and spiritually not continuing on with a summary of more of our history of man's conflicts and silly wars - that will continue to today. The AoD is the "ABOMINATION" - the most horrific act that will cause a complete desolation of their Temple, their city and their people. God will use the pagan Roman army - the 4th kingdom, to accomplish and complete this part of the prophecy in Daniel. We must understand and interpret these 6 requirements as they relate directly to the coming Messiah and not a secular approach.

 

The one who does as he pleases and magnifies himself above God and speaks words against God is the "little horn" of the fourth kingdom. Pagan Rome will be replaced by Papal Rome and the "little horn" will take power and come to claim he represents god on earth and has the power to forgive sin, is infallible and even claims his words are greater than those of Jesus Himself (per RCC writings). This is the little horn  - the one that arises out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. Greece is long gone and has no place in the coming Messiah, the 10 horns, the little horn.

The 4th kingdom began as pagan Rome and must continue until the end of days when Jesus will return and destroy the entire metal man image. The "little horn" arises from out of this last kingdom (pagan Rome) and also must continue until the end..... 

Again, my thoughts only and thank you again for your thoughts! Charlie

Hi Charlie744,

You touch upon many topics here. I will try to clarify one. The narcissist who magnifies himself above God and speaks great things and words against God, whom you see will proclaim himself god on earth, is not what is meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4. God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16). The narcissist who will magnify himself above all, seeing himself as God, craves the adulation of the people. When the dragon vests the beast with his power, causing the beast and the beasts mouth, who speaks great things to ascend from the sea (a.k.a. the bottomless pit), the beasts mouth will then see himself as the love/god of the people. All who are not written in the lambs book of life will love the beast and the beasts mouth (Revelation 13:4 & 8).

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, luigi said:

Hi Charlie744,

You touch upon many topics here. I will try to clarify one. The narcissist who magnifies himself above God and speaks great things and words against God, whom you see will proclaim himself god on earth, is not what is meant in 2 Thessalonians 2:4. God is love (1 John 4:8 & 16). The narcissist who will magnify himself above all, seeing himself as God, craves the adulation of the people. When the dragon vests the beast with his power, causing the beast and the beasts mouth, who speaks great things to ascend from the sea (a.k.a. the bottomless pit), the beasts mouth will then see himself as the love/god of the people. All who are not written in the lambs book of life will love the beast and the beasts mouth (Revelation 13:4 & 8).

Thanks again for your response!

Unfortunately, I have NO real understanding of Revelation- none! 

But I do believe that Daniel does provide us with all the necessary information to identify the four kingdoms. The characteristics of the “narcissist” you mentioned are exactly those of the little horn of the 4th kingdom arising out from the “beast”. The beast is the 4th kingdom beginning as pagan Rome. Papal Rome will replace pagan Rome and the papacy is this little horn- who indeed has met those narcissistic traits. 

Again, just my interpretations, Charlie